Prince Rupert Fisherman concerns
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fogged in
Well-Known Member
DFO seem to think the halibut model is a good one.
My understanding is Jimmy Pattison (who has big influence on this Government) holds a large share of the halibut guota...how do you think Jimmy feels about what may be a new opportunity to cash in without ever putting a foot aboard a fishing boat???
I may be way off base here as all I know is the hearsay? If I am wrong...someone please correct me eh.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
Take the time and go through the DFO website on who owns the halibut licenses. Jimmy has very little halibut. yes he owns the majority of the seine fleet but very little of the halibut fleet. Other than the government holding 17+ % (biggest slipper on the coast) the majority of halibut licences are held by individuals.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
The hardest thing on the industry has been the 45% drop in TAC that forced small operators to either sell out or buddy up. Would you trust the crown to look after anything you own or invested in??
Lipripper
Active Member
Which is why he would be interested to see salmon go to ITQ... His boats would be grandfathered quota and he could buy out the rest.
Sculpin
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Bye, bye, mom and pop operations..............what's left of them
. The greed is absurd.Oh ****, did I just post in the politics section
.
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IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
"It's a privatization of the fish because it comes a commodity, before it's even caught, that you can buy, sell trade. It becomes like the stock market and the working fishermen is the one who loses,"
Very Much The TRUTH! The halibut commercial fishery is but one of several Suffering under this Ponzi Scheme "management" regime!
"the value of the catch should go 100 per cent to the people who are working to catch the fish. They shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s ownership of the fish you are going to catch ... we prefer the open fishery, a quota fishery could be a management tool if DFO was sure that amount of quota could be reached without causing a conservation problem. But we’re totally opposed to the transferability of those quotas. One person should not own it and have another person fish it for them.”
aYup!
For an "Outsider"... Perhaps.
ALL that IVQ systems do is reward the Lazy, and I will fight this to the Death (as will my colleagues within Area G).
Traditional Competitive Fisheries is exactly what built the West Coast Troll Fleet. Those who are willing to work the hardest reap the larger rewards. Those who sit at the dock or on anchor reap their just rewards for doing so.
We are already one of (if not THE) most critically managed to number fleet that exists in BC. There is never a concern regarding going over the quota. In fact, the case as a consequence of being so tightly managed and the still ever-present FEAR in The Dino's mind that we might go over by just a tad, is that our fisheries are as a Rule shut down before we reach target numbers in almost every single case over the past decade.
I will not condone either approach. Let those who work, WORK. Stuff the damn ITQ and IVQ systems right where they belong!
Nog
Very Much The TRUTH! The halibut commercial fishery is but one of several Suffering under this Ponzi Scheme "management" regime!
"the value of the catch should go 100 per cent to the people who are working to catch the fish. They shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s ownership of the fish you are going to catch ... we prefer the open fishery, a quota fishery could be a management tool if DFO was sure that amount of quota could be reached without causing a conservation problem. But we’re totally opposed to the transferability of those quotas. One person should not own it and have another person fish it for them.”
aYup!
For an "Outsider"... Perhaps.
ALL that IVQ systems do is reward the Lazy, and I will fight this to the Death (as will my colleagues within Area G).
Traditional Competitive Fisheries is exactly what built the West Coast Troll Fleet. Those who are willing to work the hardest reap the larger rewards. Those who sit at the dock or on anchor reap their just rewards for doing so.
We are already one of (if not THE) most critically managed to number fleet that exists in BC. There is never a concern regarding going over the quota. In fact, the case as a consequence of being so tightly managed and the still ever-present FEAR in The Dino's mind that we might go over by just a tad, is that our fisheries are as a Rule shut down before we reach target numbers in almost every single case over the past decade.
I will not condone either approach. Let those who work, WORK. Stuff the damn ITQ and IVQ systems right where they belong!
Nog
ziggy
Well-Known Member
Isn't the 17% the government holds largely held for First Nations? If so that hardly puts them in the category of slipper skippers who are flogging their grandfathered quota for a profit.
I also don't get why small operators are forced to sell or buddy up? What kind of overhead is involved in the slipper skipper industry?
I also don't get why small operators are forced to sell or buddy up? What kind of overhead is involved in the slipper skipper industry?
Lipripper
Active Member
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
The ownership of quota should never have been allowed in the first place. Mistake one and to date the biggest as well. If the smaller operations could fish for full market value instead of having to lease they would much better be able to absorb the ups and downs of the TAC. In fairness it has only been downs as of late. Again comes down to a greedy, single minded decision to put ownership of the resource in the hands of those with the most money.
ITQ hurts way more and in way more ways than the reduced TAC ever could.
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searun
Well-Known Member
I'm not hearing the ITQ system working for the small guy wanting to start out in the Hali fishery. It seems to reward those who have the financial resources to purchase TAC. Over time the fishery migrates away from the mom and pop operators, placing it into the hands of the large fishing corporations
Lets is not repeat those same mistakes for the other fisheries!
Lets is not repeat those same mistakes for the other fisheries!
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have occasionally seen your posted support for IVQ's. Again, from the perception of viewing the matter outside of the effected industry, I can to some extent understand why those in that position may align themselves behind this method. Those inside however recognize IVQ's as more than a little problematic.
Although I can only answer your questions from the viewpoint of an Area G Troller, I will attempt to do so as it relates to that particular sector...
One of the foremost dangers associated with the IVQ's is just as you have stated. Given the exorbitant pressures placed on our fleet over the recent past (constantly reduced operating quota's, quota re-assignment to FN's and the recreational sector, shotgun style openings, pressured into working through inclimate weather periods, intentional devaluation of the Area Licenses via low-ball "buy-back programs" etc etc) many are now looking to get out. Were IVQ's to be imposed in this situation, the large interest groups you mention would perceive an obvious advantage in acquiring as many vessels as possible in order to garner the largest possible portion of the available quota. This in turn would present to these groups an incentive to purchase said vessels & Licenses at a rate somewhat higher than the current deflated value assigned by DFO. For some owner-operators, this would in turn present the opportunity to "escape" the fishery while actually recovering a little of that which they have put into it over the years. While perhaps good for these individuals in the short term, it has obvious negative implications for the fishery down the road. More than a few would take this route IMHO, with the result that the Lion's Share of the vessels, and their assigned quota would end up in the hands of those you refer to as the Big Boys.
Consolidation of the vessel / quota ownership in large private interest hands brings multiple problems, and you have touched on a couple of these. Owner-operators simply vanish, and those working the fishery would be doing so simply for wages. Benefits from the fishery in this situation are consolidated in the hands of those with deep enough pockets to acquire the largest shares, and greatly reduced to both working individuals and the smaller Communities they operate from.
Under a Traditional Competitive Fishery, the "ownership" is retained by the Crown as "managers" for the rightful owners - all Citizens of Canada. There is no current method to end-run that beyond imposing ITQ or IVQ management systems. Simply enough, the quota is assigned to the fleet as a whole, is prosecuted by those who are properly Licensed and wish to engage in the fishery, and there is no possibility of quota consolidation by any given private interest group.
Mr. Pattison is simply a figurehead for a very large corporate entity - one which he did indeed take a large role in developing, but a corporation (an entity unto itself at this stage) nonetheless. The seine fleet operates under a much different set of management protocols than does Area G. Those protocols allowed the JP corporate entity to procure the majority of ownership of the vessels, and as a result, the majority of their assigned quota. Yes, that entity now does have controlling interest in both.
The ability to lease or own quota as pertaining to the Area G fleet does not currently exist. Everyone already is, as they always have been, "on even terms".
The same is not true of the northern troll fleet. They bought in to the ITQ system, despite educated warnings of the consequences of doing so. Now they operate under ever shrinking time constraints (they were promised coho to entice them into buying in. What was failed to be mentioned was the fact that the instant WCVI or other "stocks of concern" are encountered at a minimal rate, their fishery is immediately shut down. DFO let them slide on this latter until the majority had come in under the ITQ banner, then began enforcing the noted restriction as soon as they had). Quota's exchange hands frequently amongst the Northern Troll Fleet, and some are actively seeking to acquire consolidations of that. For the private owner-operators, this has become something of a nightmare, as they are rarely afforded the potential of realizing the individual quota share they "own". Most now admit they "made a mistake" by buying into the ITQ system.
As noted above, the current system does not allow for private ownership nor consolidation of the assigned quota - once let, it "belongs" to the fleet as a whole. Under this type of management, those who work the hardest (aka Highliners) reap the largest rewards for their efforts. Whereas those that choose a more laid-back approach realize lesser dividends from their efforts. IVQ's carry with them all of the negative implications that ITQ's do and beyond. Why should those who work their asses off have to give up any of their access in order to support those that do not follow suit?
One other parameter not so openly considered is the timing of these fisheries. Competitive fisheries generally are of short duration and excruciatingly managed to a fine number. Going to an IVQ system suggests that any wishing to prosecute their own personal quota could drag that out for as long as they wished. As much as I and my colleagues would love to return to fishing the summer months (instead of the dead of winter), methinks the recreational fleet might have an issue with trollers wandering around the grounds through their "peak season". A distinct possibility under the IVQ system.
I consider myself somewhat "lucky" in that my Partner & I are considered "Highliners" amongst our fleet. We put in one hell of a lot of time, money and effort to get there. I'll be Damned if I'll give that access up simply so those who are not willing to do the same can benefit via reductions in the percentage we take.
Trolling has been a "Sunset Industry" for many seasons now. For whatever reasons (political methinks) The Dino has decided to favor the bag fleets, and squeeze the troll fleets out of existence. Bizarre way of thinking IMHO, as we are the most, perhaps only truly selective fishery going, and the products we produce command the highest prices (value enhanced) at market. Nonetheless, the imposition of ITQ's AND / OR IVQ's WILL sound the final Death Toll for this fleet should they come to realization.
Many consider me and my Buddies Nuts for sticking with what we do. But it is a Sincere Love for the Way of Life involved that keeps us coming back, regardless of ever diminishing returns for doing so. As long as we are "managed" under a Competitive Fishery model, I will indeed be amongst The Last Men Standing at the wheel and in the stern of an individually owned and operated West Coast Troller!
Hope this clarifies some of it for you Ray...
Cheers,
Nog
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
Thanks fort taking the time Nog. I always appreciate your well written input on this forum.
Seems that by this explanation, and my own suspicions touched upon in my original post the IVQ and ITQ are essentially two different names for systems that produce the same results in the end.
Thanks again: Ray
Seems that by this explanation, and my own suspicions touched upon in my original post the IVQ and ITQ are essentially two different names for systems that produce the same results in the end.
Thanks again: Ray
fish4all
Well-Known Member
The 17% held by dfo goes out to bands that put in a valid proposal. Once the quota is then allocated the majority of it finds its way right back into the leasing program. We get offered some of that quota and it is at the same lease price as all other non-picfi fish.
fish4all
Well-Known Member
I dont think it is realistic to put all fisheries in the same category. Halibut for example is a 10 month fishery and being able to spread that catch out through the market place is huge.
Salmon swim through in a matter of weeks. Personally I am not in favour of an ITQ in salmon. Jimmy owns close to 80% of the seine fleet and is running into problems finding skippers to run his boats. In the last few years it is that company that has left the majority of it's quotas in the water. To that I say tough ****. Unfortunately he has the most say as in the past these decisions were made by a license vote. I respect the gillnetters for taking the position in the river they have. If that fishery goes to quota there is nothing stopping jimmy from catching those quotas on a seine boat and simply buy out the existing gillnet fleet.
Salmon swim through in a matter of weeks. Personally I am not in favour of an ITQ in salmon. Jimmy owns close to 80% of the seine fleet and is running into problems finding skippers to run his boats. In the last few years it is that company that has left the majority of it's quotas in the water. To that I say tough ****. Unfortunately he has the most say as in the past these decisions were made by a license vote. I respect the gillnetters for taking the position in the river they have. If that fishery goes to quota there is nothing stopping jimmy from catching those quotas on a seine boat and simply buy out the existing gillnet fleet.
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fish4all
Well-Known Member
Not true. Many of those quotas are so small those boats could not afford to leave the dock with todays costs of fishing.
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
Not talking about guys who invested in smaller quantities of quota thinking they could milk the cash cow like the big guys. I was talking about those who are forced to lease in order to fish at all. Never said it would solve the problem completely. Just pointing out that having to obtain Highly valued quota makes it more difficult to endure the downswing in TAC for smaller ops than it would be without the ITQ.
Seems you have pointed out yet another reason why the ITQ is no good for anyone other than those with deep pockets.
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vetteman
Active Member
That's a huge hard to surf site. I can't find who owns quota. Where do you find it on DFO's site. Anybody have the link that they can post?
Dave
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