Mono vs. Braid for Salmon Trolling

[TheBigGuy]

Well it’s looking pretty quiet on the board these days so, I thought I’d bring up a subject that there’s a lot of disagreement over. Do you use braided spectra line on your Salmon mooching reels? I do, and have for many years. I prefer it for lots of reasons, here’s some.

Smaller line diameter lets you spool tons of line on reel, (almost never get into backing).
Allows you to use a stronger line than mono, helps when battling seals, snags, etc.
More economical in the long run, no need to cut off degraded sections like mono.
Line needs replacement far less frequently, line takes many years to degrade.
Line almost never breaks off, so you also lose far less tackle over the season.
Reel stays more fully spooled giving larger diameter, faster retrieves.
Weights can be used without damaging the line, or fear of break offs.
Exciting responsive fight from the Salmon, less stretch in line.

There are a few negatives to using braid, lack of shock absorbsion, line visibility, and false releases on rigger clips. These can all be resolved by adding a 30 ft. section of 40 pound mono to the lure end of the braided line. I join the lines with an Albright Special with a lock knot on the spectra tag end. The join has never failed me in any battle with a fish. Many big game fishers the world over use this system with no issues whatsoever. Using a good non slip knot recommended for braid (and lines of dissimilar diameter) is the key thing.

I know most of the guides will pile on me, saying that far too many Salmon are lost using spectra. Most guides viewpoint is a little skewed though, they often have clients with no experience Salmon fishing with mooching reels aboard. Inexperienced fishers will definitely lose more fish on spectra. Once used to fishing with braid (with a top shot of mono) I can almost guarantee no higher a loss ratio. The short section of mono is enough shock absorber for any competent angler to land just as many fish.

During my trip to Barkley Sound this summer I actually found the complete opposite to be true. I ran two reels with braid, and two with strictly mono. I ran the ones with braid far more than the ones with mono. Caught far more fish on the lines with braid, yet we lost far more Salmon on the lines that were strictly mono. It got to the point that my son was bugging me to switch those reels over to spectra too. It was that obvious how many more Salmon we were landing on the spectra. Maybe that was just an anomaly, but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I don’t lose any more with braid.

Thought I'd bring it up to maybe change a couple minds.

 

[viewitall]

Hmmm, Very Interesting big guy, I just put my boat to sleep today till next spring and took one of my reels home to get it re spooled. I'd like to give this a whirl, can you give me the specifics on everything what pound test for backing and mainline, and how much backing to use?

Cheers and Thanks
Viewitall

 

[TheBigGuy]

Everyone uses different reels, so it's a little difficult to be really difinitive about line quantities. The best backing is dacron, but it takes a ton of line to fill a large size mooching reel up with dacron. To give this a try the cheapest and easiest way is to use one of your mooching reels already spooled with decent mono. Select a reel that is a bit of line down from full capacity. Usually about a 1/2 to 3/4 inch down from full capacity is good. Next attach the mono to the braid with a good knot recommended for this purpose. I use an Albright Special knot, it is very easy to tie.

Next spool up 300 yards of spectra in 45-65 pound test. 50 pound test is good for most applications, lots of strength but still a reasonably small diameter line. If using spectra on multiple reels it helps to use different colors in case of tangles, it's easier to undo them. Hopefully you guestimated the amount of space required correctly and the spectra fills the reel just to capacity. If the reel ends up a little over full you can always reel it off onto another reel of the same make with a little more room on the spool. It's all a trial and error thing to get it filled just right. Make sure you record the amount of space required on the drum to spool up 300 yards of the test spectra you are using. That way you can reliably duplicate it if you want to spool up another of the same reel with spectra in the future.

Once spooled with the spectra join on at least 20 feet of 40 pound test mono with another Albright special knot. The tag end of the spectra line can be made extra solid after tying the Albright special by using a lock knot.

Hope that helps.

 

[reelfast]

i use spectra style line on all of my reels at this point. i actually prefer the lack of stretch and view that as a big plus. given that there is blow back when using any downrigger, eliminating any additional line stretch is a real benefit. i don't seem to have any difficulty with 'false' releases out of my scotty clips. i have them set for the 'softer' release and position the line about 3/4 of the way into the clip. if you notice, there is a black bump that holds the soft tips, that is my informal mark for line setting. having just enough drag to keep the reel from ticking on the troll is just right. i also don't seem to have any problems with loosing fish because of lack of stretch. on salmon reels, the ability to spool up miles of spectra is sort of a lost advantage as i don't find salmon running all that hard. now warm water fishes are a whole nuther story..........

 

[Last Chance]

I run it and love it myself. However, people who don`t fish a lot tend to shake fish with it.

Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com

 

[Dogbreath]

I tried it for a while but given as how I was fishing by myself any little mistake cost me too much money (cut, cut, cut), if Spectra/Dyneema was as cheap as Mono I'd probably go for it.

 

[Olde School]

Went to braid at the advice of Peetz a few years ago when they repaired a warped drum for me.
WOW!!!
I can't imagine going back to mono.
Braid lasts forever, but most importantly, IMO, is the feeling of the fish, what a direct connection!
I put braid on the coffeegrinders for the kids and you can't really notice it as much with those, but with a moocher or better yet a Peetz, there isn't a better way to play a fish that I've found yet.
For me, it is all about the quality of the battle.

Smiley.

 

[Captain Dudds]

Do you find it gets tangled up more easily - especially around your rod tip? And what about all the spinning in the same direction from the flasher - does that twist it up a lot? I didn't think it would be stiff enough to make a swivel spin?

 

[twinwinds]

Do all of you add a chunk of mono to the lure end?

 

[Enniberg]

I spun 50 lb test braid on one of my reels before this years fishing season but found that I lost way too many fish with the braid compared to the other reel with mono.

The biggest problem for me was that under tension the line tended to bury itself and get stuck on the reel - nothing more frustrating than having a fish break free because the line is suddenly stuck on the reel in the middle of a run.

I realize that my problem's with braid are probably just due to inexperience, but running 30 lb test Maxima works so well for me that I am not very tempted to experiment further.

www.cobbcanada.ca

 

[uglystikftw]

I ran braided line this season for the first time (35 lb on 1 rod, 50 lb on the other), no mono leader to the flasher or anything and i had one of my most productive years this year!

I like the braid over mono because

- It lasts longer
- Ties better knots (tighter)
- A lot more sensitive
- You can fit more of it on a reel.

I did have problems with it too, like

- It wraps around the rod tip almost every time i put the rod down. (really pisses me off, you have no idea)
- When it tangles, IT TANGLES, get the knife out its not worth the 20 minutes of mental anguish to untangle.

But the highlight of switching to braided line has got to be successfully landing a 40lb halibut with salmon gear! We decided to tie a leader with braided line (flasher to spoon) The halibut absolutely sucked my spoon in, so the line was raking across its teeth, if i had been using mono line we would have definitely lost it!

 

[cliffjumper]

I'll add my 2-bits, but I'm also not in your class of angler... No boat.

I charter on sometimes, but mostly I shorefish, about 4x week... I have a ton of braids vs mono experience on "coffee-grinders", mooching, trolling and baitcast reels from size 05 lo-pros to Abu 7000's, and one Alvey side-caster.

I love good mono lines for casting best of all. But, on spinning reels, braids are #1 due to the line twist imparted by the bail and choice of lure. If you're mooching, and spinning your herring/anchovy on a spinning reel, using mono... big PITA. Same jigging bottom where your jigs spin or twist, like buzz bombs or leadheads... Use braids. It takes an awful lot of twist to get a pigtail.

I can just get 300' on a 1 1/2oz lure, casting with braids, and I use 30#, 50# & 65#, in several brands & in braid & fused type.

On my 6600 C5 with 25# Excalibre or Gamma mono, I'm about another 25'-40' on the cast, same lure, same rods. About the same with a Curado300, lighter rod & 15# Maxima and 1 oz.

I like the braids for their strength pulling out of a snag by straightening or breaking the hooks, but that's murder on the drags, hands and gets big spool dig.

Down-rigging, pound for pound blow-back is far-reduced. But you won't put 30# Stealth on your 4000GT mooching reel because you can't hold the line in your clip unless you're using vicegrips because the line is 0.009" diameter and slippery. You'll use 65#-80# and blowback will approximate 20-25# mono.

Use the Albright to tie to mono leader. You have almost no chance of cut-off knots due to the braid cutting the mono... Or, tie a doubled uni knot for the braid to terminal gear. I'm fond of the doubled uni to terminal gear because you increase the surface area inside the knot, 100% knot strength and no chance of screwing up as you can (I know, rarely) with a palomar... Knot strength isn't a big concern for trollers though, unless you hang bottom a lot. (as I, shore-bound do..a lot!)

Trolling with deep dive plugs, using 20#-50# braids, for those fish (coho) in the top 30' will get your plug down fast if you stick with poundage equivalent, 20#-30# test. These lines do not surf like mono tends to do. But, you have to use a modestly-soft rod like a trolling rod (not downrigger rod), or a dipsey-diver rod with either a mild drag-set or shock leader, say 20' of mono to keep from ripping the lips off your fish. If you're pulling shallow weighted hootchies or flies, steelhead gear with braids is great. Just when shallow trolling don't set the hook or you may hook it foul. Wait for a real strike.

Braids are super for mooching because of the sensitivity on soft bites (especially using a bait-feed spinning reel), and if you're sticking to tensile equivalents, really, unless you're using bright yellow, the visibility of green 0.009" 30# TuffLine is pretty slight.

For spool dig, let your line out to the dug-in bit, pull out the dig, reel-up & start fishing. I have to throw a soft lob-cast to get to that spot. If I don't, and power-cast any weight over 1/2oz on any line under 65#, I snap-off my lure. That's a bigger waste of time than first throwing the soft cast & fixing. Spool dig is a lot less deep than might happen on your mooching reels because it's rare to perfectly wrap the line on the arbour, usually you get some overlapping.

But, I've also dug-in 25# mono a few times & learned the hard, expensive way to lob a cast after every big snag.

Tip-wrap. This is a big deal because most braids get really soft after you use them a bit. After you blow a couple tips off, you develope the habit of checking before casting...Or, when you let out line on your downrigger & it doesn't flow well, you get the clue. That is a lot easier and quicker to do for you trollers than for me, the caster & jigger. Again, I can tip-wrap mono periodically, usually the middle guides, so checking every cast is required for me regardless the line.

I get far less tip wrap with FireLine and Stren MicroFuse than with other braids because it's a fused line and stiffer... Which is why some don't like it. I do. It also digs less than same## test of braids. Two things, it only comes to 30# test, but it's also thicker.. 0.014", about 50% thicker than 30# TuffLine.. Which some also don't appreciate. I do.

I'm just now trying a new WesternFilament line called DuraTuff (same guys as TuffLine), which is again, thicker than TuffLine by 30%-50%, but also has an added coating and filaments which keep the line stiffer. Regrettably, max 30# test.

Stiffer means or should mean less tip wrap. Hopefully it also means less spool dig. I'll soon find out if the patter is true after I use it for a few weeks.

Still, the habit of checking is best.

Because I use braids on one mooching reel, and like someone said you won't want to stack that much $$$ braid on your arbour, and, on some heavily-used reels, backing with mono can warp or break your spool due to its' Chinese-Puzzle/Python habit of tightening every time the line dries.. I've taped my arbour with double-side tape and build-up the arbour with 1/8" cheap dacron cord. You still get 300 yds of 65# braid on and have a good 3/4 inch clearance from the rim. Mind you, were I a guide using Islanders, my clients may not be impressed as they can see the cord through the drying holes.

You can use dacron to back your braids, but it's not that cheap either, you need a lot of it, and if you're going to do that, may as well go dacron all the way. It's thinner than equivalent mono, cheaper than braid, and as far as visibility... What about that steel cable & lead ball? Then, you top-shot with a bit of mono if you wish for shock.

As far as getting the swivel to work, really, you're tying your flasher upstream to a mono leader maybe 40# clear mono, or direct to braid, with a 100# ballbearing swivel, and you're clipping maybe up to 30' which means above (mainline upstream) won't be getting any twist, you add a terminal swivel to the flasher, tie your leader hook & bait. So twist ought not to be any great problem, and your swivels will still be working their magic, unless you're tearing around at 8-10 knots.

With my very modest boating experience, and a fair amount of casting experience, my meagre opinion, for what it's worth to trollers, is braids are best for many apps, great on some, good on others, poor on a few and almost mandatory on spinning reels, but I still love mono where I can best use it... And, my mono-choices are brand/model specific to certain lures, reels, applications & rods and would conflict with many others' flavour favourites.

So, my very short, only slightly encyclopedic treatise on braids comes to an end. As sang the Moody Blues... "Another day's useless energy spent..."

Cheers all...

 

[Dogbreath]

Very</u> well written post Cliffjumper, Thanks for that. [8D]

PS-I've been a big fan of Fireline since it came out and remain so today.

 

[TheBigGuy]

quote:Originally posted by Enniberg

I spun 50 lb test braid on one of my reels before this years fishing season but found that I lost way too many fish with the braid compared to the other reel with mono.

The biggest problem for me was that under tension the line tended to bury itself and get stuck on the reel - nothing more frustrating than having a fish break free because the line is suddenly stuck on the reel in the middle of a run.

I realize that my problem's with braid are probably just due to inexperience, but running 30 lb test Maxima works so well for me that I am not very tempted to experiment further.

www.cobbcanada.ca

Enniberg, sorry to hear that was your experience with braid. I remember you saying you would give it a try, and hoped it worked out for you.

I can only tell you that in over 15 years fishing braid I have never lost a fish because the line got buried. However, you must be careful with braid that you don't create loosely spooled line underneath. When you initially spool up the spectra you must make sure you spool on the line with lots of tension. If you have played a fish (or reel in line) and notice that there are loose wraps on the drum you must let out enough line to clear up this mess. Freespool line while the boat is moving until all the loosely spooled line is off the drum. Then reel all the line back in with the line between your fingers to add tension so it spools back on the reel properly. If you take this simple precaution when you notice line has been wound on loosely you should never get line buried on the reel.

Letting the line trail behind the boat on the surface like this is also an easy way of getting twists out of your line. So, if your line is wrapping around your rod tip that means the twists should be let out in this way. The beauty of spectra is that the line doesn't weaken or have memory like mono when it gets twisted. So, once you let the twists out it's good as new again. Using a top shot of heavy mono eliminates the problem of line twist, and false trips on the release clips.

 

[Gunsmith]

This is what I was looking for when I joined this forum! Than you for this valuable info. When you get this info from a sports magazine it tends to be biased without any different views, but not here.[^]

 

[cliffjumper]

To continue BigGuy's suggestion, when you reel it back in, make sure you cross-wrap as you wind it back. That makes any dig-in really shallow. Diawa make a spinning reel which cross-wraps braids to avoid spool-dig. Not that you really care about that, but it is an interesting tid-bit.

Cheers!

 

[TheBigGuy]

I really don't think spectra is that finicky as to worry about it getting buried continually. I treat mono the same way, you want to make sure it is spooled on the reel cleanly. Both lines should be spooled on the reel properly to ensure no problems.

A great knot for Spectra is the Sand Diego Jam Knot. I have been using the San Diego Jam knot for almost 20 years. It is an extremely strong knot, and is highly regarded for big game fishing. It has only recently been widely recognized as a great knot for spectra use as well. I have used it for at least fifteen years on spectra knots and have never had one slip. For use with braided lines increase to 10-12 turns, instead of the standard 5-7. This is a very easy knot to tie, and works great with all tests of lines from super heavy mono, to flouro, to spectra.

In extensive testing recently, Field and Stream rated the San Diego Jam Knot "The Strongest Terminal Knot"

Below is the link to the Field and Stream knot test results:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/bass/where-fish/2009/02/strongest-fishing-knots

Below is another link with video tutorials on how to tie the single and Double San Diego Jam Knot(which is bulkier, but even stronger). Video's aren't necessary as it's such an easy knot to tie, but some people prefer videos so I thought I'd include.

http://ultimatefishingblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/san-diego-jam-knot-reverse-clinch-knot.html

 

[Olde School]

Merry Christmas all on board!

Got my wish yesterday and now have to decide what to spool up the new stainless Peetz with.
I've been swearing by 80# green spiderwire braid for several years, learning curve was short and the benefits were many. 80# is a diameter to stay in the Scotty releases.

Ran into a weird situation last July while targetting sox in the canal. My daughter and I were running 4 rods, she had a pair of grinders and I had a pair of the little 4" Peetz's. One of her rigs had mono and the 3 others had braid. For some reason her mono set up caught 13 of the 16 sox that morning. Once I noticed this trend that morning I moved the rod around on the boat, changed terminal tackle, etc. It still kept outfishing the others. Some of you are thinking why did he mess with success ;-)
The difference wasn't one of retaining fish once on but rather was the number of hits.
I realize that one trip is tough to judge something on, statistically speaking, but it got me thinking!

Do any of you have experience with both mono and braid and have you noticed a difference in the frequency of hits? Did I just experience a weird morning or is there something about braid that scares salmon away from striking a trolled lure?
The difference of that day hasn't been seen by me before or since.

Thanks.

Smiley.

 

[TheBigGuy]

Hi Smiley, Merry Christmas too you and everybody else as well.

If you attach a 30 ft section of mono to the end of your braid you'll never have to worry if the braid scares the fish. Sockeye are probably the most likely of the Salmon to shake off because of their soft mouths. You can use a large rubber snubber in front of the flasher if you find your losing too many of your Socos. Or just use mono on the socs if you feel uncomfortable using braid. I stuck to the braid when fishing this summer, I was glad I did when a I got into it with a couple of seals. One tried to steal a nice spring from me, luckily I battled it and won. The other one was a soco taken by a seal. By the time I got it close to the boat the seal had chewed it up pretty good, so I just gave him slack to finish his meal. I wanted my flasher and gear back as it was my hottest rig. Otherwise I wouldn't have given up on the battle so easily. At least with spectra you have a fighting chance against the seals. If you don't get the fish, at least you usually get your gear back.

I was a little surprised to see this thread resurrected. Oh well, it's been pretty quiet on here lately.

 

[Olde School]

Thanks for the thoughts TBG.

Since I fish with kids so much one of my favourite things about braid is how easy it is to pop the line out of the release for them, with mono they have to struggle to get it out.
I really like your idea of snubbing the flasher since it will help with hits yet still allow the braid to be in the release!

Will put my mercury blood study gift card towards some new braid.

Smiley.