Licensing Guides...your thoughts?

What the insurance companies do for licensed guides is irrelvant, the fly by nighters will still be there. It was said earlier that it is up to the guest to ask if the guide and boat is insured. How many do, or even know the rules and what their guide requires? I bet not many. The only way to bring things into line it enforcement, when there is only legit operators on the water with courses and insurance there won't be a problem. Then we can work on possibly licensing guides in some way but until this happens there is no point.
 
A lot of these people dont even have insurance so it doesnt matter alot of the marinas now are asking for documented proof of insurance papers before they will you moor but in the only way it will ever end is phoning DOT personally and telling them which is illegal then maybe after enough pressure they will do something....
 
It will only cost us more money, will do nothing about the illegals that are running about. Unfortunately more people are going to have to loose their lives or be seriously hurt in order for something to be done. I personally have over a 100 calls, emails and texts into RCMP and TC. Under staffed and way to much ocean to get a handle on what's going on. We all just need to keep getting in their faces and hope that something will get done about it.
 
I hear ya. Guess it will take a few accidents and insurance claims that don't get paid before some of the fringe operators give it up. Meantime, I'm in favor of staying the course with current regulations and direction the insurance industry seems to be tracking. Bottom line is about raising the bar on safety and quality.

Got further clarification from my insurance broker - he says some folks will still sell the policies no questions asked, but when the claim gets made they will ask for all the particulars of your TC requirements and if you don't have it, they will breach your insurance, so basically you won't have it even though you may have thought you paid for it...surprise. So, guess some of you guys are right...nothing changes except the operators who want to do it right will step up and the rest will weasel their way along below the radar.:(
 
Man oh Man the hoops I have jumped through already have cost me HUGE$$ to be what is called a CHARTER.

Any one who does every thing required by TPCanada knows this is licensing in a form. Those NOT operating with in the guidelines and regulation should have the BOOK thrown at them and boats and trucks confiscated.


my 2 cents

HT
 
I would think that if a limited license was given out for free in the long run could possibly benefit the legitimate guide.

1) have only guides that can produce sales receipts and tax records for x years be able to qualify for the free license.

2) in time it will help to weed out those that are not playing ball. I am sure insurance agencies would demand a copy of the licnese.

3) evey limited license we have been envolved in has value at some point. I believe in Alaska that the licenses have a value of approx $80,000.

4) it would give a licensed guide a business to sell when he/she decides to retire.
 
Man oh Man the hoops I have jumped through already have cost me HUGE$$ to be what is called a CHARTER.

Any one who does every thing required by TPCanada knows this is licensing in a form. Those NOT operating with in the guidelines and regulation should have the BOOK thrown at them and boats and trucks confiscated.


my 2 cents

HT

Agree 100%. This TC stuff has been around since 2005 - no excuses now. Its about time everyone got with the program. Interesting concept with a limited license. I would support that if it was teamed up with the C license on your vessel.
 
3) evey limited license we have been envolved in has value at some point. I believe in Alaska that the licenses have a value of approx $80,000.

4) it would give a licensed guide a business to sell when he/she decides to retire.

If it's anything like the slipper skipper Halibut Quota maybe they would do better leasing it!... SS
 
OBMG made it a requirement to charter from there marinas. Had to have the TC stuff 8 years ago, if it were not for that, many guys would not even have known about the TC stuff. Seems like some idle threats of enforcemnet ,and the intro of the SVOP cash grab put many on board.
When the yellow decal program was first introduced, we had to have MED A1 & A2 at a week long, with hands on pool and firefighting sessions. ROCMC, MFA. Then things changed to just a basic MED A3, then a SVOP. Whats next? I still think the guys operating under the radar would just keep at it. Either way it sucks to drop 5K on this stuff and watch dumb F#%$ run out with nada for free in a rotted out boat. How about Enforce the policy and regulations, even a one day sting lol. Never going to happen, they have been saying for years they are working on it. Its just a honour system, unfortunatly until something real bad happens. Revenue Canada may be able to do something though
 
I would have to agree tailspin ...it's gov way of making sure only ppl with deep pockets survive.With new taxes/lic fees/rules/shorter seasons will only drive things further underground.Enforcement a threat not likely their seems to be little money in the coffers besides with R.C.M.P,D.F.O,C.G on the same Zodiac there will be little room for Rev. Can. Yep Harper's solution is to get hard on crime & fill the over crowded/under staffed jails as you are well aware none of this has worked...SS
 
Hey guys, all valid and appreciated comments, just wanted to mention a couple of things to keep in mind when thinking about this...

The people in DFO that are discussing/thinking about this work at a local level. There is currently no local benefit to create more fees to the rec sector in the Pacific Region because all of that money goes to Ottawa through treasury board, it's not controlled or influenced by local DFO staff. The User Fee Act stands in the way of local DFO channelling fees generated from our region back to our region. Changing it is a 2-3 year process with no guarantee of success.

The main reasons that DFO and others have been thinking about this lately are...

1. Catch Monitoring - is the creel survey capturing the guided and unguided components of rec fisheries in each area? Some areas yes, some areas no. Guide logbooks, lodge reports, etc capture some of the guided effort, but there are issues around participation, quality of the info DFO gets back, etc...that need to be worked out if the Department is going to be able to really use this info.

Are there differences in CPUE between guided and unguided trips, again some areas yes, but suprisingly some areas no... DFO needs to know that because it has a Pacific Salmon Treaty requirement to have estimates of salmon catch with acceptable amounts of error. If DFO knew how many guides were operating in an area, and got them or some of them to report their catch they could figure these questions out. This already happens in some places but people don't always participate, why - because they don't have to. Maybe if they were licensed and had to participate they would do a better job of reporting catch...? Some people/outfits already do a great job, others not at all...currently it needs to get better.

2. The perception of the recreational fishery by other stakeholders. I think this one is huge. I don't know how many meetings I have been to where other stakeholders bring up the "out of control recreational fishery". It's unbelievable how many people and groups think our rec fisheries are just growing like mad. If you check the sale of licenses things look pretty flat, maybe even down a bit in some areas...so why would people they think its so out of control? Well the fishery is changing, some areas see more guided trips than they used to. Guides have begun operating in a significant way in some areas where guided recreational fishing effort previously was small...WCVI, QCI, etc...and have ramped up catch in a major way in many places. Guides catch fish, guides advertise, guides tie there boats up in local harbours...there is just a perception that there are a lot of guides out there, probably more than there really are. How many? Nobody knows, but it would be good to know.

How could the DFO find out how many guides there are? One way would be to license them. There are other ways too and are being looked at, but one possibility is by having a license. Why would DFO want to know how many guides/charters there are? Well from a local perspective it would help to put some boundaries on how big this sector really is, so the DFO knows and can consider the needs of the fishery appropriately (think about the 12% Thibeault halibut allocation and the info that was used...some people question whether the decision makers of the day really understood the fishery and the needs of the fishery). It would also be very useful to have some numbers to provide to other stakeholders when they make these outrageous claims that are hard to defend against because the DFO doesn't have the info. There are others too.

Many think that the DFO has no idea how many guides there are and how many fish they catch (a possibility that needs to be known). Not to keep mentioning halibut but think about the whole halibut issue this spring and how much information was being circulated around about our rec fishery...claims of huge guide operations using up the public 12%TAC ...and unfortunately those claims probably linger with people (and I imagine with some decision makers) because there isn't a lot of info on operating numbers to refute those claims. I know that there are quite a few guides/charters on the coast, but doubt there are thousands like I have heard people mention. But currently there isn't any definitive info to be able to defend the rec fishery when other groups make these allegations. Commercial fisherman, First Nations, NGO's can stand up in a meeting and make these claims and the department doesn't have any info to say...well actually there are only 1200 guides on the coast, and this many in this area, and this many in this area....and be able to respond to these claims from people who think that the rec fishery is just massive and nobody knows what they catch...and if you believe that you are part of the problem because it isn't true. Maybe if operators were licensed DFO would know how many there were...who knows? Again not saying licensing is a be all to end all solution, I'm just providing info as to why people are thinking about this.

Ulitmately most people from non-government and government agree that guides/lodges should have an increased responsibility to provide info to help manage our rec fisheries because of their enhanced role in the fishery. How that will be done who knows, but lots of things are being considered and things being tried out (like the SFI guide logbook program in Cambell River, Victoria, etc...) What we do know is that we need to do a better job of describing the recreational fishery, the size of it, the various components of it and whether or not those pieces have good catch information. Thats whats ultimately important, not necessarily the licensing itself.

Thanks for your feedback, try not to get hung up on the tax grab issue. We need to come up with some real solutions because many people are making claims about the fishery that simply aren't accurate.

Also participate in your local Sport Fish Advisory Committee meetings (SFAC), if you want to change things that is how its done in rec fisheries. I will post a list of the meetings in the different areas once the dates are set. Come out.

-gc
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can tell you this now with all the transport licencing there is and should be a more accurate account of who is a legit fishing guide, the info is there same old the none conplient people will remain and there will always be that unknown part of the pie ,the creel survey is flawed and needs to be fixed plain and simple if they want accurate data they are going to have to put more money towards it, having someone on the dock 3 days a week at radom times ie when everyone in general has come in and he is just starting a shift and then collecting that info and averaging it over a weeks time ,horse **** random fly overs and speculating that everyone is hali fishing when 90% are salmon and same thing again 25 days of fog no chance of fly overs but yet they come up with these ubsurd #s,as a guide i know for a fact that the legit guys are definetly making an effort to help with data but when faced with the bull **** science its hard to get full cooperation ,and rightfully so,adding an additional licence does nothing to aquire this needed info if its going to come from somewhere dfo needs to revamp their creel survey system and it may require money being thrown at it anotherwords spend the money and stop being cheap real sceince not this hocus pocus ****,
 
I have been apart of the log book program the last 2 years in a row and did it previously a few years back when the Coho restrictions came in place. However I have kept personal logs for each year going back 25 years to my first year of guiding. I can accurately tell DFO how many fish and species I caught for each of those seasons, but nobody asked.
 
Same with me PF, have kept a personal log for over 11 yrs and my DFO Guide book for 3 yrs now. The first year DFO came and got my log book, since them I have talked to a creel surveyor twice and they haven't touched my log book. Put a lot of days on the water too, where were are they getting all this info that in turns shuts out Hali season down, sure would like to know.

As for being licensed, I'm all for it if it doesn't cost me anything, spent way to much money jumping through all the hoops already and really don't see how it will change anything. A change in the fish recording system is what DFO needs to come up with,not more licenses. As for the fly by nighters, I think that with enough pressure from the legit guys, over time they will be weeded out.
 
Have to agree with DHA there. Issue isn't how many guides and how many fish are they catching. If DFO really wanted data they would ask for it, and require anglers to turn in their old license in order to buy another one.
 
... If DFO really wanted data they would ask for it, and require anglers to turn in their old license in order to buy another one.

The data collection model exists. It however is not used appropriately. The Dino will SCREAM "Lack Of Funding" to address this outstanding issue. And while there may be some truth to that, the actual reason is that they are content with things the way they are (pulling numbers out of their butt). Allows them to point at us as "the problem" at every juncture, while the truth is EXACTLY Opposite of that. They pay "lip service" towards finding solutions to data collection issues in order to look good to their higher-ups and the other Sectors, but they have NO intention of acting on that. Obvious, the answer is simply SOOOOO EASY should they ever truly decide to get on with the show... :rolleyes:

Nog
 
It's all about the allocation isn't it.
We are suppose to supply data to make our case.

May I suggest we look at the allocation of Canadian fish stocks like this.

First priority would be for conservation so that we have fish stocks for the unborn Canadians to follow.
Second priority would be for First Nations and the general public (rec sector) Food, Social and Ceremonial harvesting.
Last time I check all citizens were equal in this country.
Third priority would be the commercial harvest for the Canadian market.
It's important that the people that don't fish have a way to tap this resource.
Forth priority would be commercial harvest for export to foreign markets.


Want to solve the allocation issue?
Easy cut the forth priority until the other three priorities are meet.


GLG
 
Lot of good posts happening here...GLG got to agree 100%. Commercial harvest should be lowest priority until FN and Recreational angling needs are met. If we were smart, we would spend a little time getting to know our FN bothers and find ways to work together.
 
Back
Top