Lawsuit Filed against DFO & Marine Harvest!!!

If I owned the salmon farm there would be plenty of farm salmon around my house but I have to buy it like everyone else so why would I? I am clubbing wild salmon like everyone else here but since I am a fish farmer I seem to fall under a different set of ethics.

Well I thought your salmon farm was a more sustainable choice and you grow such an amazing product why would you want a wild fish (who knows where it's been) when you can support your industry and eat a sustainable salmon you helped raise? I'm sure if you asked your boss an employee discount could be worked out.

Lets be real you don't eat farmed fish because you don't want to eat that crap and see first hand how bad the conditions are in which the fish is raised. It is not because you might need to spend a few bucks on it. You spend way more catching wild fish save yourself some hassle and get an employee discount going maybe you could even bring the morts home to your family for free! YUCK but you enjoy.
 
If this lawsuit succeeds you fellas may get your "natural order" but you can likely kiss most of our hatchery programs goodbye because prv has been found pretty much everywhere including hatcheries from alaska to washington. Considering this maybe its time to really look at the facts about prv situation in BC and the whole coast for that matter and seriously evaluate the risk and make the divide between the reckless fear mongering morton tactics and the actual facts. Your call guys.
PVR virus from Norway in BC waters?
This virus is now in our hatcheries?
Could this be why we have gone from 7-10% smolt production to adult return and now we are seeing 1-.01% smolt production to adult return. Had a meeting this morning with the fellas at our local community hatchery. We produce 30 to 50 thousand clipped coho year in and year out. Been doing it since the 1980's and if you want to know what are call is.... Maybe it's time to shut it down. Us fellas have been working year after year trying to make a difference here in the SoG. And your "industry" has been working against us. Our smolts have to swim right by your feedlots, up near Campbell River, to get to the open ocean. Our adults also swim by your feedlots on the way back home. That's our Coho migration route. Nothing we can do to change the way it is with our fish. You and your Norwegian bosses could get the farms off the migration route, that's doable. If your not going to do that then we may be the first to "Make the Call" and shut it down. Some may ask why we don't just ask DFO to test our fish for the virus? Do you trust DFO to tell the truth? The Cohen documents clearly indicate that they can't be trusted when it comes to reporting viruses here in BC. Too much money is at stake for the truth to be told. I have deep respect with the DFO guy's in the field all around BC. My lack of respect and trust for DFO is in the people that hold upper management positions these are the ones what are willfully blind to the problems we have on the west coast.

So you see you feedlot farmers... if it's our call you might not like the answer.
Some of us know the difference between right and wrong.
GLG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
PVR virus from Norway in BC waters?
This virus is now in our hatcheries?
Could this be why we have gone from 7-10% smolt production to adult return and now we are seeing 1-.01% smolt production to adult return. Had a meeting this morning with the fellas at our local community hatchery. We produce 30 to 50 thousand clipped coho year in and year out. Been doing it since the 1980's and if you want to know what are call is.... Maybe it's time to shut it down. Us fellas have been working year after year trying to make a difference here in the SoG. And your "industry" has been working against us. Our smolts have to swim right by your feedlots, up near Campbell River, to get to the open ocean. Our adults also swim by your feedlots on the way back home. That's our Coho migration route. Nothing we can do to change the way it is with our fish. You and your Norwegian bosses could get the farms off the migration route, that's doable. If your not going to do that then we may be the first to "Make the Call" and shut it down. Some may ask why we don't just ask DFO to test our fish for the virus? Do you trust DFO to tell the truth? The Cohen documents clearly indicate that they can't be trusted when it comes to reporting viruses here in BC. Too much money is at stake for the truth to be told. I have deep respect with the DFO guy's in the field all around BC. My lack of respect and trust for DFO is in the people that hold upper management positions these are the ones what are willfully blind to the problems we have on the west coast.

So you see you feedlot farmers... if it's our call you might not like the answer.
Some of us know the difference between right and wrong.
GLG

Again another nail in the salmon feedlot/lice farm coffin - gotta love it!
 
Marine Harvest fights back on disease allegations
Canada: Accusations by the extreme environmental movement in British Columbia that diseased fish were moved to sea from hatcheries are not supported by experience- the disease in question has never been diagnosed here


Tips en venn Utskriftsvennlig
Odd Grydeland

The disease in question is called Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HSMI). According to a peer reviewed paper published in Norway last year (Veterinary Research), the authors described the disease as “one example of an emerging disease in farmed Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar L). Since the first recognition as a disease entity in 1999 it has become a widespread and economically important disease in Norway. The disease was recently found to be associated with infection with a novel reovirus, piscine reovirus (PRV). The load of PRV, examined by RT-qPCR, correlated with severity of HSMI in naturally and experimentally infected salmon. Our results confirm the association between PRV and HSMI, and strengthen the hypothesis of PRV being the causative agent of HSMI”.

In British Columbia, the PRV virus has been found in both farmed and wild salmon, but no disease outbreak or loss of fish has ever been recorded. That’s why Marine Harvest fought back, rejecting allegations by environmentalists who claimed that the company had moved “diseased fish” from its hatcheries to seawater sites, issuing the following statement late last week;

Marine Harvest Canada has today come under attack by long time anti salmon farm campaigner Alexandra Morton with an Ecojustice led court action against the company and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Citing rumors of an apparently benign virus called piscine reovirus (PRV), the highly publicized filing of suit falsely alleges that the company has transferred diseased fish to its salmon sites. Limited testing for PRV in BC has found it to be present in some wild and farmed salmon but none of these farm-raised or wild salmon have been diagnosed with a disease.

Contrary to the opinions of Ms. Morton, DFO and CFIA do not consider PRV as a microbe of concern and it is not on the list of reportable diseases/pathogens. At the present time PRV appears to be a benign virus that may have been long present in the world's oceans. "Marine Harvest has the greatest respect for the ocean environment in which we grow our fish and we would not introduce fish that were carrying a disease" said Clare Backman, Sustainable Programs Director for Marine Harvest Canada. "Our fish are vaccinated against common disease causing agents before leaving the hatchery and we continue monitoring their health throughout their lifetime."

Marine Harvest Canada is very disappointed by Wednesday's court action which is lacking in substance and apparently designed for publicity purposes. Marine Harvest Canada is prepared to vigorously address these false accusations and to defend its good practices and excellent operations in BC.

While HSMI has never been found in B.C., one of the co-authors of the Norwegian study, Marie Løvoll of the Norwegian Veterinary Institute, told FishfarmingXpert that she “was strong in the belief that PRV is a causal agent of HSMI”, but that as with all other diseases, “other factors must contribute in order for an outbreak to occur”. And the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association referred to the study stating that “There has been no causal link between PRV and HSMI. (The paper) suggests that PRV is a cause of HSMI, but the paper notes specifically that the finding of PRV does not establish a HSMI diagnosis- and the paper’s conclusions are not uniformly accepted. While PRV has been found in B.C., HSMI has not.
 
"Marine Harvest has the greatest respect for the ocean environment in which we grow our fish and we would not introduce fish that were carrying a disease" said Clare Backman,

They forgot to add, "that's why we continue to use the ocean environment as a dumping ground for our fish waste, and an assortment of chemicals that kill everything else, but we won't talk about that. So you see, if we write it, it must be true, so please believe us, we are good for the environment"
 
The ISA virus has recently been brought into the fraser river and cultus lake by sockeye salmon. Very disturbing. It will be there to stay and evolve to other species.

Also

I guess it would be nice to move some fish farms in front of vancouver or victoria so the public can observe the operation and scuba dive and see all the **** and pellet waste on the ocean floor and swarms of sea lice. Also witness Atlantics freely chomping on juvenille smolts as they pass by the net pen.
 
Thanks for the Op Ed by Grydeland, SF.

Wow - Grydeland has been very busy the past couple of years, and especially the past few months. Alex Morton has been keeping Odd gainfully employed by having the BCSFA hiring him try to fire-stomp (deny, obfuscate, mislead) the news from Alex's work.

Maybe Odd should donate like 10% of his earnings towards Alex and the Salmon Research Station's work since it keeps him employed in the PR battle.

Odd says: "In British Columbia, the PRV virus has been found in both farmed and wild salmon, but no disease outbreak or loss of fish has ever been recorded. "

Well, Odd is definately the master of telling half-truths. Sure, it's not been "recorded" all right. As for the farmed fish - it's a slow death, and they are protected from predators even if thir hearts cannot pump well enough to get over velocity barriers in the streams if they escaped. Wild fish - a different story. Fish also commonly sink when they die. Predators would take many of the PRV/HMSI infected wild fish - out of sight out of mind - no "recording".

As far as the farms go - we already went over how they hide their fish health data from the public on: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?9-Conservation-Fishery-Politics-and-Management

Odd plays on the "disease" verses the "disease organism" ploy commonly used by the industry. He talks about "disease" specifically verses "infection" by PRV/HMSI. It's similar to the AIDS/HIV analogy. Everyone with HIV will develop AIDS at some point in their lives, but with modern drugs - it may be many years now before the infected develop full-blown AIDS. So they are "infected" verses "diseased" when they have just early stages of HIV, buit the prognosis is not changed, just the time is delayed.

Here, they try to say that PRV is "benign" w/o actually knowing anything about what strain of PRV is in wild salmon, how widespread the disease organism is, how the demands of osmoregulatory, swimming upstream, and spawning stresses affect the latency and virulence and eventually the morbidity and mortality of the disease in wild stocks.

They really have NO IDEA of how bad it is because nobody is looking at this (i.e. no "recorded" data as Odd correctly states), and they are scared sh*tless of the implications if they are held responsible for releasing this virus onto the Pacific where it has not historically been part of this "world-wide" prevalence that they try to get you to believe.

Yes, PRV/HMSI is "world-wide" in the farmed salmon-producing areas of the world. Stop and think about that for a minute, and those implications.

The last quote from Odd is most telling: "While PRV has been found in B.C., HSMI has not."

Well you have to "look" in order to "find". The DFO/CFIA surveillence program just started does NOT look at PRV, even though it takes samples for other viruses and it would be easy to add PRV, AND they already know the high prevalence of PRV in farmed stock.

Think they are scared to find PRV in wild stocks because that would open the industry up to being sued by wild salmon interests? I sure do!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And agent, you don't know if it wasn't always present in BC.

The reason, as I understand it, that PRV was "discovered" recently wasn't because it is a "new" virus intro'd by the fish farm operations. It's because technology has advanced to the point that allowed it to be "discovered". So it is therefore impossible to make the claim that PRV didn't exist in Pacific salmon before it was "discovered", and fish farms brought it in.

In addition there is a debate on whether PRV causes HSMI or not. Some sources say it does while others say there is no link.

In addition, the PRV doesn't seem to have en effect on salmon farmed or wild. Fish with HSM I also had PRV. However fish could havce PRV without HSMI.
 
Birdsnest didn't mean to ignore that excellent post of yours! I posted the answer on the wrong thread - sorry about that! Dave, sorry your question on the other thread is not even worth a response!
no no no calmsea. You see charlie has been on here for years bashing away at canadian salmon farms all the while never once making a comparison to his US atlantic salmon farms whom as KC points out started the whole atlantic program here out west. So why is it that he never made any such comparisons if they are so superior environmentally as charlie has clearly stated. Why did he never ever point it out? What baffles me is how everyone here just kinda let that slide. Nobody raised an eyebrow to it. Mind-blowing. Did no one here even notice his statements about american atlantic salmon farms in pugit sound or is charlie one of your guys so its ok lets just, whatever. Well if you didn't notice charlie fully supports atlantic salmon farming in pugit sound. So calmsea I guess charlie is equally subject to all the name calling and rhetoric as the rest of us pro farmers.

You just used the name and/or if you prefer term “charlie” FIVE (5) times in that post. Why don’t you also start reading all that crap before you post it? No offense meant, but sorry you and your BS are really actually NOT worth my time to respond – check your facts?
Here is the response you are referring:
Now THERE is a deflection.

Wow, Puget Sound to Scotland?

Seriously Charlie, is there really so much cognitive dissonance happening here you can't see that Washington salmon farms do exactly what BC farms do, and that Washington has been one of the worlds biggest producers of salmon and trout eggs for export for many decades?
Why don’t you start reading all that crap before you post it? No offense meant, but sorry you and your BS are really actually NOT worth my time to respond!

For example, it is against both federal and state laws, it is actually illegal for Washington salmon farms to do exactly what BC farms do!

Yep, one of the world’s biggest producers of salmon and trout eggs for export for many decades; AND, – NOT A ONE OF THOSE EGSS have ever came from any European country, especially NORWAY!

Washington started farming Atlantics in the early 80's when the independents in BC were still trying to raise local Chinook and Coho - once they had some luck at it the Atlantics were taken up by most all farms in BC.

Nope, again check your facts! Washington also grew Chinook and Coho in open net pens, just like BC. If you do check your facts, you will find that is actually more harmful to wild stocks than Atlantic salmon. Specifically concerning the Atlantics, it was a NORWAY company that started farming them in Washington. Facts will also show, it is against U.S. laws to import Atlantic eggs. More specifically checking those facts, Marine Harvest (Norway) bought Panfish (Norway) and Marine Harvest losing money, on the verge of bankruptcy had to consolidate. Because their Washington farms had to abide by U.S. laws and their BC farms had the less stringent Canada laws, they sold their Washington farms in favor of those less governmental controls and the lower costs associated. At the end of 2005 they had moved ALL their “open net pen” operations from both Washington and Maine, to Canada. Were they were free to import all their eggs and diseases, at their own will. Also, Canada is allowing them to pour all their pesticides and ****, directly into your Canadian waters..

The vast majority of those eggs came from YOUR local hatcheries - then BC companies started their own breeding programs and now almost every single fish raised comes from multiple generations of BC stock.

Well maybe not all “now almost every single fish raised comes from multiple generations of BC stock.” You have imported Atlantic salmon eggs from Washington State since 2001. IF, you really want to find the source of YOUR ISAv, just start looking at those Atlantic eggs imported from Scotland during 1985 through 1988: 1985 - 130,000; 1986 - 1,144,000. The following are a combination from Scotland and Washington: 1987 - 1,281,000; 1988 - 2,700,000. YOU also seem to be forgetting about those Iceland imported Atlantic salmon eggs? As in 2007 - 1,750,000; 2008 - 800,000: 2009 - 600,000.

Check out this tour, it's great to see how much infrastructure you guys have down there cranking out Atlantics: http://www.wfga.net/tour.php

Seems you are confusing egg production from confined rearing ponds, closed containment and YOUR Norwegian owned Atlantic open net pens that are dumping all those pesticides and their **** directly into your ocean environment! That tour you keep referring actually highlights why OUR open net pens have different sitting requirement and why they don’t have to dump all those pesticides into the environment!

BTW... just for clarification YOUR NORWEGIAN fish farm industry - SUCKS!

All that hype you are spouting off about Canada and the U.S. transporting ISAv from the east coast to the west coast during those stocking attempts - is pure BS! ISAv was NOT even in North America during that timeframe! ISA is a Norwegian imported virus originating in Norway and imported by YOUR company(s) to the Canadian east coast of North America (which spread to the state of Maine) and BC. Both the now so-called North American and Chile strains are just a mutation of the original Norway ISAv strain found in 1984 imported by YOUR Norwegian company(s). Which is exactly why it is now against U.S. Federal law to import or export any live fish or eggs to and from either of our coasts.

The PRV in BC is also Norwegian [strain]. PRV was tested for in 2010 and not found in BC [waters]. In 2012, Dr Marty has already stated [it] is being found in 70% of “farmed Atlantic salmon.” Not a bad job there! YOUR Norwegian company(s) has taken a non-existent very viral virus and managed to infect up to 70% of your Atlantic stock - not bad for TWO YEARS. Yep, I’m proud of you, and I’d be proud to be an “open net pen” fish farmer, too!

Just keep using that ‘SLICE,’ at least until the sealice build up immunity to it, as they are around the rest of the world. Of forgot to mention, SLICE also kills any and all crustaceans it comes in contact with. But hey... the hell with the environment, it is good for YOUR company’s bottom-line, so it must be good for you! Yep, so proud to be an “open net pen” fish farmer. Back to the your Washington farms comment, you do realize it is still illegal for Washington farmers to use ‘SLICE’ right?

THERE IS NOTHING PROUD OF BEING A BC “OPEN NET PEN” FISHFARMER!

no no no calmsea. You see charlie has been on here for years bashing away at canadian salmon farms all the while never once making a comparison to his US atlantic salmon farms whom as KC points out started the whole atlantic program here out west. So why is it that he never made any such comparisons if they are so superior environmentally as charlie has clearly stated. Why did he never ever point it out? What baffles me is how everyone here just kinda let that slide. Nobody raised an eyebrow to it.

Yep... been on here since 2007! Yep, actually started bashing away at your Norwegian owned Atlantic salmon (Canadian salmon farms?) “open net pens” since 2009! Nope, never once making a comparison to U.S. Atlantic salmon farms - see above. Nope, the U.S. did NOT start “the whole atlantic program here out west" - see above. Don’t confuse the term “better” that was used and your twist of “superior”! Nice twist there!

Actually, most on here already know – If science supports it “I” usually post references - Why don't you? If it is an opinion, I also state that. I have NEVER once posted anything regarding “open net pens” without providing the scientific references when asked!

Mind-blowing. Did no one here even notice his statements about american atlantic salmon farms in pugit sound or is charlie one of your guys so its ok lets just, whatever.

Well that would be Puget Sound and not “pugit sound”! Whatever... !

Well if you didn't notice charlie fully supports atlantic salmon farming in pugit sound. So calmsea I guess charlie is equally subject to all the name calling and rhetoric as the rest of us pro farmers.
REALLY?
Let me make this perfectly and very clear to you and your pro "open net pen" farmers...
“CHARLIE” DOES “NOT” SUPPORT ANY TYPE OF “OPEN NET PEN” ATLANTIC SALMON FARMING, AND ESPECIALLY IN “PUGET SOUND” – PERIOD, END OF SUBJECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Charlie,

A couple clarifications:

There still are salmon farms in Maine. The companies didn't "leave", but were bought by Cooke Aqua which farms there under US regs to this day.

The ISAv on the East coast is not of Norwegian origin. There are also several strains, both virulent and non virulent. However they both give a + result on a PCR. This triggers the CFIA quarantine until they virus can be grown and typed, which takes 21 days.

Did you ever consider the PRV in Norway is a BC strain?
 
Still the problem, a free ride has been provided to a virus that does not belong where it was taken to. What was provided with a free ride to BC waters?
Pine beetles were provided a free ride all over BC by logging trucks and human meddling just trying to rescue an economy.
We are also trying to build an economy on selling un-processed bitumen to another country to fill foreign pockets.
Where do we draw the line?

Charlie,

A couple clarifications:

There still are salmon farms in Maine. The companies didn't "leave", but were bought by Cooke Aqua which farms there under US regs to this day.

The ISAv on the East coast is not of Norwegian origin. There are also several strains, both virulent and non virulent. However they both give a + result on a PCR. This triggers the CFIA quarantine until they virus can be grown and typed, which takes 21 days.

Did you ever consider the PRV in Norway is a BC strain?
 
And agent, you don't know if it wasn't always present in BC.

The reason, as I understand it, that PRV was "discovered" recently wasn't because it is a "new" virus intro'd by the fish farm operations. It's because technology has advanced to the point that allowed it to be "discovered". So it is therefore impossible to make the claim that PRV didn't exist in Pacific salmon before it was "discovered", and fish farms brought it in.

In addition there is a debate on whether PRV causes HSMI or not. Some sources say it does while others say there is no link.

In addition, the PRV doesn't seem to have en effect on salmon farmed or wild. Fish with HSM I also had PRV. However fish could havce PRV without HSMI.

Seems to me the first part would be pretty easy to verify. Check wild stocks in the Nass, Skeena, Charlottes, maybe Stikine and the Taku for PRV prevalence. compare to stocks further south.
 
And agent, you don't know if it wasn't always present in BC. The reason, as I understand it, that PRV was "discovered" recently wasn't because it is a "new" virus intro'd by the fish farm operations. It's because technology has advanced to the point that allowed it to be "discovered". So it is therefore impossible to make the claim that PRV didn't exist in Pacific salmon before it was "discovered", and fish farms brought it in..
Well, were to begin with those comments, hmmm...

Either fish health monitoring is “adequate” as industry pundits like Clayoquot Kid claims, or it is not. I am strongly of the opinion that fish health monitoring is and has been inadequate for over 30 years now. You cannot shut the barn doors after the viral horses have left and are now leaving their colts to roam over previously unoccupied fields. As I listed on http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum...fish-farm-rejected-risk-to-wild-salmon/page32, the unresolved issues in fish health monitoring for farmed/wild stock interactions are as follows:

1/ Farm data is not publicly available,
2/ Farm data is not publicly-available on a site-specific basis,
3/ Farm data on fish health goes through the filter of the provincial fish vet who gets to decide whether or not to test for certain diseases. There is no third party monitoring or public oversight,
4/ The office of the provincial fish vet protects the farms by withholding farm-specific fish health data from the public,
5/ The fish farms, their association and their lawyers have been successful in obstructing inspectors and in the release of fish health records,
6/ There is a unnecessary and irresponsible time delay between noticing, reporting and investigation of symptoms and between initiation of control procedures of days to weeks while transfer of disease vectors continues between cultured and wild stocks. Response time is critical when dealing with highly migratory stocks,
7/ The testing for “confirmation” of disease vectors like ISA as dictated by CFIA testing protocols (i.e. The PCR method) requires a testing protocol that can only test for known strains of known diseases. This testing protocol is ineffective in recognizing introduced and emerging diseases like ISA,
8/ There is no public notification system for outbreaks,
9/ Adjacent wild stocks are not concurrently tested in association with a disease outbreak,
10/ Wild stocks have not been adequately tested as part of an ongoing monitoring program,
11/ There is no way for public input to be systematically utilized in the development of disease response plans and CFIA wants the public to know as little as possible about diseases on fish farms,
12/ There is no scientifically-defensible disease response plans because proper siting criteria has NOT been utilized in the aquaculture tenure applications,
13/ We do not know enough about infection dynamics, epidemiology, persistence and life cycles of both known and emerging diseases in order to complete proper risk assessments and to initiate risk reduction measures for protection of wild stocks,
14/ Risk assessments for each disease have not been performed,
15/ Risk assessments for each farm site have not been performed,
16/ Other fish health response procedures not yet identified, consulted and completed include: Environmental Impact Policy, cost-benefit analysis of alternative control/eradication strategies, predictive modeling, retrospective analysis, contingency planning, risk of disease transmissions, establishing incident plans, monitoring effectiveness of control measures, resource planning, and incident response training,
17/ Other fish health responses not identified to the public include: procedure for notifying and consulting First Nations and the public about a disease affecting cultured stocks after a veterinary inspector has been notified, follow-up actions such as biocontainment and movement controls, quarantine orders, setting the limits of the disease Control Area, and disposal and disinfection activities.
Almost all of the above points relate to the HMSI/PRV issue, but especially points 1-5 and 9-10.

There has been inadequate testing before and during the expansion of the open net-cage industry, and we are only beginning to understand the aetiology, infection dynamics, host physiological consequences, and potential population-level effects of many disease-causing organisms such as PRV, ISA and many others.

To state that Norwegian-strain ISA, PRV or any other exotic European disease existed in BC BEFORE the fish farms arrived is bizarre, inane, misleading, scientifically invalid AND not-to-mention downright stupid and condescending.

Because the fish farm industry had inadequate controls and oversight – NO we cannot “prove” it was introduced by fish farms in a legal sense, BUT using “common sense” - there is no other viable explanation as to how a Norwegian strain virus became endemic in a Pacific population of wild salmonids.

The only flying fish capable of flying across the landmass of North America are aboard a commercial airline carrying inadequately tested eggs for the open net-pen industry.
the PRV doesn't seem to have en effect on salmon farmed or wild. Fish with HSM I also had PRV. However fish could havce PRV without HSMI.
Yes, for the fish that survive the initial infection - fish can have PRV in a dormant state and not exhibit symptoms or develop the later stages of the disease unless they get stressed: stresses like osmoregulatory (returning to freshwater from the ocean or vice-versa); stresses like swimming past velocity barriers when returning upstream; or stresses like spawning. Good thing none of these stresses affect our wild salmon, eh?

To suggest that PRV is “benign” is similarly inane, misleading, scientifically invalid AND not-to-mention downright stupid and condescending.

Check-out : Ferguson, H.W., Kongtorp, R.T., Taksdal, T., Graham, D., Falk, K. 2005 An outbreak of disease resembling heart and skeletal muscle inflammation in Scottish farmed salmon, Salmo salar L., with observation on myocardial regeneration. Journal of Fish Disease 28, 119-123. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705157

In this article the researchers compare HMSI, SPD (salmon pancreas disease) and CMS (cardiomyopathy syndrome) and they make this observation: “cardiac lesions are more severe” when referring to HMSI. In addition, they report “pale lethargic fish accumulating on the net floor, sometimes lying on their sides,” and “soft, flabby” hearts. “There is little doubt that fish with lesions as severe as these would be reluctant to move and would be suffering clinically from a failing cardiovascular system.”

Do you think most wild salmon who have HMSI would survive the trip upstream? What about the massive pre-spawn die-offs we have seen? Were the fish tested for PRV? Can you scientifically defend your assumption that PRV is truly a “benign” disease for wild stocks, and causes no population-level morbidity or mortality?

Also check-out: http://www.ecojustice.ca/files/prv-hsmi-summary-of-facts-may-2013/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OMG Aqua, do you honestly believe what you post?

Just because a virus was discovered in Norway first, does not mean that it was only in Norway at the time of discovery. If I am the first to discover a Douglas fir outside of Port Hardy, then some one else finds one by Victoria by your logic the Fir in Victoria must have originated from P. Hardy. Absolutely Absurd.

As for your 17 points, it demonstrates how little you know about the disease monitoring activites which occur in modern aqauculture. Why should salmon farms be held to a higher level of scrutiny than terrestrial farmers or any other human activity? Name me one other human activity that is held to the standard of your 17 points.

Here's something that you might not have thought of: Farmers don't want disease in their stock. That is why they are constantly testing and monitoring for the presence of disease organisms.

The bulk of the disease known to effect salmonids were discovered because of fish culture, not by canvassing wild populations. Salmonids have been cultured since the late 1890's. Typically for enhancement purposes in very crude setups which provoked disease outbreaks and their "Discovery"

Unfortunately people such as yourself use this to suggest that cultured salmonids are diseased and are a threat to the wild. Do you know the source of those diseases? That's right WILD SALMONIDS.
 
"To suggest that PRV is “benign” is similarly inane, misleading, scientifically invalid AND not-to-mention downright stupid and condescending."

"PRV is a virus that can infect Atlantic and Pacific salmonids. Reoviruses get their name because many are respiratory and enteric orphans. They are called “orphans” because many are viruses without an associated disease. Other reoviruses have been found for decades in wild fish."
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/forum/

"Despite some claims, it is incorrect to state that PRV is known to be the causal agent of Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HSMI). If that were true, most or all fish with abundant PRV would also have HSMI. In Norway, fish with HSMI often have PRV, but many fish with PRV never develop HSMI. PRV is present in fish in BC, but no farm-raised or wild salmon have been diagnosed with HSMI. The records released during the Cohen Commission’s Inquiry into Fraser River sockeye also support this view.

There is some debate about the relation of PRV and HSMI in Norway, but even recent papers there state that detection of PRV alone does not establish an HSMI diagnosis (Garseth et al. Journal of Fisheries Research: 2012). If PRV was capable of causing harm to our fish or having the potential to cause harm to wild salmon we would take immediate steps to eliminate the virus."
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/blog/2013/03/27/what-is-piscine-reovirus-prv/

Despite your claims that salmon farm fish health monitoring is inadequate the fact remains that the health and safety of our fish is only second to the health and safety of our people.

You can't expect to be successful in business if you don't have a product to sell.

All of your opinions on this matter completely fail to recognize the importance and absolute necessity of knowing exactly what is going on with our stock - if they die it costs us money, therefore we invest significant amounts of time and resources into understanding the threats to our stocks.

You complain ad nauseum about things that you feel are lacking, yet you are incapable of acknowledging that the people who grow fish for a living know more about their health and biology than anyone else on the planet.

You seem incapable of seeing the situation in any other light, referring to alternative explanations as "stupid and condescending" - I find this to be an incredibly narrow-minded and simplistic view which only serves to explain your inability to accept the consistent and obvious flaws in your logic.

So, we are left with one side claiming massive amounts of conspiracy and collusion in an attempt to explain away their total lack of physical evidence to support their views, while the other side calmly attempts to educate and enlighten others about the reality of the situation.

You can express your opinions all you want about how you feel the aquaculture industry should be regulated, but you absolutely cannot claim that you, Morton, or any other opponent of aquaculture knows more about fish health and transmission of disease than those who have been raising them to be healthy, sellable product for the better part of half a century.

Again, we are the fish professionals and if you look at any website posting companies annual reports you will see all sorts of information provided to shareholders which outlines every economic impact applicable to their stocks - including fish losses from disease.

I'm sure you will be able to expand your conspiracy to cover the presence in BC of a disease causing virus which is known to cause huge losses in farmed stock...
 
What amazes me SF – is how institutionalized denial is in your industry and mindset.

There are diseases that used to be endemic and specific to certain areas of the world like Norway, Atlantic Canada, and the Northwest Pacific – all BEFORE open net-pen salmonid culture arrived at the doorsteps of watersheds across the globe.

At that point one could state with certainty that wild salmonid stocks carries certain endemic diseases and if you developed an industry that wild fish would give the farm stocks diseases endemic to that population and area of the world. This can and still does happen, for diseases like IHN, as an example.

However, with inadequate testing and inadequate understanding of disease transfer, and with inadequate oversight and ultimately inadequate technology (i.e. The open net-pen technology) – the picture has become seriously muddied and changed.

Escaped viruses and other disease-causing organisms from other parts of the world have caused serious harm in naive native populations. NORWEIGAN strains of ISA and PRV originate in Norway – DUH!!

Open net-cage farm operations supply the opportunity to magnify and infect vulnerable stages of other salmonids, and then that disease (whether or not it was originally endemic or exotic) goes back and forth between wild and cultured stocks.

Not sure why you have trouble understanding this – denial, maybe. It's really a big scary mess.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OMG Aqua, do you honestly believe what you post?

Just because a virus was discovered in Norway first, does not mean that it was only in Norway at the time of discovery. If I am the first to discover a Douglas fir outside of Port Hardy, then some one else finds one by Victoria by your logic the Fir in Victoria must have originated from P. Hardy. Absolutely Absurd.

As for your 17 points, it demonstrates how little you know about the disease monitoring activites which occur in modern aqauculture. Why should salmon farms be held to a higher level of scrutiny than terrestrial farmers or any other human activity? Name me one other human activity that is held to the standard of your 17 points.

Here's something that you might not have thought of: Farmers don't want disease in their stock. That is why they are constantly testing and monitoring for the presence of disease organisms.

The bulk of the disease known to effect salmonids were discovered because of fish culture, not by canvassing wild populations. Salmonids have been cultured since the late 1890's. Typically for enhancement purposes in very crude setups which provoked disease outbreaks and their "Discovery"

Unfortunately people such as yourself use this to suggest that cultured salmonids are diseased and are a threat to the wild. Do you know the source of those diseases? That's right WILD SALMONIDS.

Aqua seems to feel that simply because his expectations of transparency and oversight are not met that the industry is harming wild fish.

The fact that all disease data is not public does not equate with the presence of a disease which could harm wild salmon.

In order for wild salmon to be at risk, farmed salmon would need to be dying in numerous and unexplained ways first and this is simply not the case.

It seems the only response available to many here when challenged for evidence to support their claims is to decry conspiracy and collusion by any and all level of regulation involved.

The further they are pressed the further the conspiracies go - and on and on they go.

The incredible leaps of logic and willingness to grasp tightly on the weakest point of connection in order to maintain their elaborate theory is simply amazing to me.

It takes a concerted effort to walk the path of "Farms are bad - therefore" and any rational person would have dozens of exit points when faced with situations where the only reason something makes sense is because you firmly believe the harm is occurring and are willing to ignore a number of alternatives that go against that assumption.

It's kind of like watching a sci-fi movie where you suspend your disbelief in order to enjoy the story without saying, "That could never happen! This is BS!" - but the vast majority of people are not going to walk out of the theatre and claim your next door neighbour is an alien.
 
Thanks for aptly and copiously demonstrating the denial mentality of your industry, SF and CK.

Don't forget to add: "We are the CULTURED fish professionals", CK - because you are definately NOT the wild fish professionals.

Don't confuse the term "professional" (getting paid to raise cultured Atlantic salmon) with "expert" or "specialist". Getting paid as a media shrill only means you are expert in the ways of lying.

Your lack of humility and corporate arrogance and hubris is overwhelming, CK. Can't wait for the judge to see this also.

the "Twelve Signs Arrogance Is Running Your Company" adapted from:
http://www.businessweek.com/managing/content/dec2010/ca20101220_008468.htm

1. You hire and develop great people but then fail to listen to their input if it is nonconformist thinking.

2. Your company [and shrills] rationalizes its mistakes instead of learning from them.

3. Your company focuses almost exclusively on financial success with little regard for legacy and social impact.

4. Your company [and shrills] lobbies against sound regulations because they may add complexity to the way you operate.

5. Your leaders [and shrills] pat themselves on the back when the company succeeds financially, even though success derived from market forces rather than actual performance.

6. Your leaders [and shrills] believe the company can't fail.

7. Your leaders [and shrills] dictate more than they listen.

8. The company underestimates its competition and minimizes the success competitors achieve.

9. Access to top leadership in the company requires wading through multiple layers of bureaucracy.

10. There is a focus on amassing the trappings of success: large, well-appointed offices, chauffeured cars, private jets, and the like.

11. Your company doesn't become a partner in a merger; it takes over, losing the value of the [wild fish] culture and learning the other organization might have provided.

12. Your company suffers from "Not Diseased Here Syndrome," believing it holds the monopoly on great ideas, so that innovations coming from the outside ("Not researched Here") are deemed to hold little value.

Taking Stock

If you answered "yes" to more than six of these signs, your company has a dangerously high arrogance index.

So - let's have a poll here. Who believes CK shows fish-farm institutionalized arrogance using the above criteria?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Charlie,

A couple clarifications:

There still are salmon farms in Maine. The companies didn't "leave", but were bought by Cooke Aqua which farms there under US regs to this day.

That is correct, I was referring to “Marine Harvest” leaving the U.S. in favor of the less stringent laws of Canada. There are still currently two companies producing Atlantic salmon in “open net pens” one in Maine and one here in Washington.

The ISAv on the East coast is not of Norwegian origin. There are also several strains, both virulent and non virulent. However they both give a + result on a PCR. This triggers the CFIA quarantine until they virus can be grown and typed, which takes 21 days.


SF, how “about 100 ISA viruses have been sequenced.”

It is actually believed those non virulent that the industry keeps referring to as harmless, is what mutates into those virulent deadly ones. Specifically “deletions in the stalk region of the HE protein seem to be responsible for the transition from avirulent ISA viruses to pathogenic strains.”

“Canada” will NEVER find any Norway strain anywhere in Canada if they only test for the European strain and/or keep testing those degraded samples! You can confirm that with Dr Kristy Miller!

Actually, the ISAv found in Norway separated from the “European Subtype” somewhere between 1932 and 1959. The ISAv pathogenic HPRΔ virus found in Norway in 1984 had to have mutated from a non virulent HPR0 strain somewhere after 1932, which again did separate from the “European Subtype.”

Quess what… The ISAv strain found here in North America actually and happens to be that very same “European Subtype” strain that separated form the Norway strain! Just for argument sake you would be better off trying to defend the European Subtype that started all of this could be native to North America and transported to Europe? That is actually a very slim possibility; however NOT LIKELY, and cannot be scientifically proven either way. Might want to also remember ISA was never found in the United States, until Maine 2001. So don't try blaming me! :)

Your non virulent strain of ISAv HPR0 (whether it be the Norway or European strain) is the mommy and daddy just breeding away waiting to mutate into that virulent HPRΔ strain and well sooner or later bless you and yours (be it Pacific or Atlantic “open net pens”) with that very deadly ISA disease! IMHO... Just a matter of time!

Abstract
Infectious salmon anaemia virus, ISA virus (genus Isavirus, family Orthomyxoviridae), emerged in Norwegian salmon culture in the mid-80s. The genome consists of eight segments coding for at least 10 proteins. ISA viruses show many of similarities to influenza A viruses but differ in many important aspects such as the number of hosts, the host population structure and the route of transmission. The only known hosts and reservoirs for ISA viruses are salmonids found in countries surrounding the North Atlantic. In this study, four different segments of the genome of about 100 ISA viruses have been sequenced in an attempt to understand the evolution of ISA viruses and how these viruses are maintained in and transmitted between populations of farmed Atlantic salmon. The four gene segments code for the nucleoprotein (NP), the putative acid polymerase (PA), the fusion protein (F) and the haemagglutinin-esterase (HE). Analysis of these four genes showed that the substitution rates of the internal proteins (NP and PA) are lower than those of the two surface proteins (F and HE). All four segments are evolving at a lower rate than similar genes in influenza A viruses. The ISA virus populations consist of avirulent viruses and pathogenic strains with variable virulence in Atlantic salmon. Recombination resulting in inserts close to the proteolytic-cleavage site of the precursor F0 protein and deletions in the stalk region of the HE protein seem to be responsible for the transition from avirulent ISA viruses to pathogenic strains. It is also shown that reassortment is a frequent event among the dominating ISA viruses in farmed Atlantic salmon. The pattern that is obtained after phylogenetic analysis of the four gene segments from ISA viruses suggests that the variation is limited to a few distinct clades and that no major changes have occurred in the ISA virus population in Norway since the first viruses were isolated. Calculation of the time of most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) suggests that the Norwegian ISA viruses separated from the European subtype found in North America between 1932 and 1959. The TMRCA data also suggest that the ISA viruses in Chile were transmitted from Norway in the period from 1995 to 2007, depending on which of the four genes were used in the analysis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22886279

ABSTRACT
Atlantic salmon is the only species in which the disease infectious salmon anaemia (ISA) has been observed naturally. Initial reports of findings of infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) before 2002, did not distinguish between non virulent HPR0 and virulent HPRΔ viruses, thus making interpretation of older findings difficult in the light of current knowledge. Following a request from the European Commission, EFSA was asked to deliver a scientific opinion on the relationship between HPR0 and HPRΔ, the risk of HPRΔ ISAV emerging from HPR0 ISAV, and possible risk factors for such an emergence. HPR0 ISAV does not cause clinical disease in Atlantic salmon; however, it causes a transient subclinical infection and replicates mainly in gills. There is no evidence for HPR0 ISAV leading to natural infection and replication in fish species other than Atlantic salmon. Virulent ISAV have deletions in the HPR region of the HE gene and they have either an insertion or the Q266L mutation in the F gene. The most plausible hypothesis is that virulent ISAV (HPRΔ) is derived from HPR0 ISAV. This is further supported by the close association between the genetic relatedness and spatio-temporal distances of virus strains in solitary outbreaks. Epidemiological and historical data from solitary disease outbreaks indicates that the risk of HPRΔ ISAV emerging from HPR0 is low, but not negligible. The risk factors for HPRΔ emergence from HPR0 are unknown. Nevertheless, any factor that affects virus replication or host susceptibility could possibly influence the risk of emergence. More research is needed on the drivers for transition from HPR0 to HPRΔ and factors affecting host susceptibility and thereby emergence of clinical disease. A quantitative assessment of the different evolutionary forces for ISA would be useful, as well as the prevalence of ISAV HPR0 in farmed and wild Atlantic salmon.
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/2971.pdf

Did you ever consider the PRV in Norway is a BC strain?

Yep, based on the number of salmon exported to Norway, I believe that would be less possible than ISAv started in North America! Don't forget Dr. Marty's test in 2010 were negative and then Dr. Marty's test in 2012 was 75% positive - oops BC Atlantic salmon have "NO" PRV in 2010 - NONE! Then test positive for the same Norway strain in 2012! Not being a scientist - would have to suggest, PRV did get to BC via any friggen boat!

I would also be fine with those Norwegian companies be required to remove ALL their PRV and other diseased infected fish, UNTIL it is proven - “THEY” ARE NOT KILLING YOUR WILD SALMON!
 
Back
Top