Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
Can't agree with you more!!!!
Lawsuit Filed against DFO & Marine Harvest!!!
- Thread starter Whole in the Water
- Start date
Can't agree with you more!!!!
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Couldnt agree with you less.
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Pages and pages of "evidence" which never seem to actually quantify any impacts - just "May" "Can" "Could" "Might"
The theories have been out there for more than 30 years without ever actually pointing to an instance where a wild run declined in concert with the introduction of a farm.
One thing you can measure though is fishing impact - count up every single one of the salmon killed and see how the addition of those fish might have increased the wild populations.
Every fish that hits your plate doesn't spawn. That is a fact no one can argue. (Unless of course you eat it afterwards - but who does that?)
Save wild salmon - eat the farmed ones instead!
The facts are that Pacific Salmon will tend to be more resistant to Pacific viruses that they have evolved with and Atlantic Salmon will tend to be more resistant to Atlantic viruses. I don’t give a ratz azz if Atlantic feed lot salmon have a serious problem with native Pacific evolved viruses other than the fact that they concentrate them and transmit them back to Pacific salmon and the feedlots provide the conditions to mutate them into more virulent forms which could do serious damage to Pacific Salmon.
Atlantic Salmon and their Atlantic diseases do not belong in the Pacific ocean period. It goes against the basic laws of nature and there are hundreds of examples of introduced species having severe repercussions for native species.
Pacific salmon have enough problems we need to work on without the open net pen industry through greed, politics and propaganda being allowed to operate outside of the Precautionary Principle. The Precautionary Principal has certainly been used to kick the butts of anglers for many years.
We do have Atlantic evolved viruses introduced here and most believe they are harmful to Pacific Salmon.
Do you not grasp (of course you do but that does not protect your financial self interests) that Atlantic feedlot salmon can have a virus which weakens them but does not kill them before harvest because:
1. They evolved with it and are somewhat resistant to it or
2. They do not live a full life cycle before going to harvest meaning less time for the virus to do its nasty work.
3. A Farmed Atlantic may be weakened by disease but still be able to survive till harvest because they do not have to work for a living. Unlike Pacific Salmon; Atlantics do not have to hunt/chase food, run from predators and migrate thousands of miles, climb rivers and still spawn.
For years the industry and its government supporter’s position was that there was not any proof BC Atlantics even had these viruses. I guess its progress that now they are beginning to grudgingly admit it and have moved on to “but it is OK because they are not sick”.
By the way I understand that in the Maritimes that the fish farms have been allowed to send documented infected/diseased salmon to market. I guess it is that or the government using our tax dollars to compensate the Net Pen Corps for all the diseased dead/dying Atlantic Salmon they have to destroy/dispose of.
I am assuming the BC Atlantic farm industry has been compensated for destroying infected/diseased Atlantic and putting them in landfills. I am curious; does anyone know how much the fish farm industry in BC has been compensated with our tax dollars over the last five years for the loss of and disposing of their diseased Atlantic salmon?
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Here's something I posted on another site earlier today. Don't tell me about not caring for wild fish ...
We 4 again started our weekly steelhead count at the outlet of Chilliwack Lake this morning. Water conditions were acceptable for viewing fish but considerably higher and a bit more turbid than previous dates, water temp was 8.5 C. Today we observed 21 mostly spawning steelhead ( in 2012, May 10, we saw 30); included in this mix were a few trout, again hanging out with spawning steelhead, and one 6-7 lb char, just looking happy and healthy.
Next up was Centennial Channel; water temp 9.5 C. We were happy to see much more gravel movement and redd production from last week and today we counted 18 (in 2011, 32 and in 2012, 7) along with one 3-4 lb trout. Conditions for observations were compromised due to the increased riparian growth and sunlight overhead of branches creating shadows. We all agreed we did not see all the fish in the channel today, and suspect the fish we saw today were not last week’s ... a theory we wish we could quantify.
Angelwing Channel was next walked with no fish or fresh redds observed; last year on this date we saw 7 fish.
The water at the 3rd bridge where we saw 18 last week was too high for observations.
All in all this was a good day with good friends, doing something we enjoy. Lots of coho fry showing in Centennial, no sign of poaching or predation anywhere, other than a few morons falling trees and leaving their usual garbage. We find it interesting that we are seeing more resident trout hanging out with spawning steelhead... Most likely this is common on coastal rivers but we are happy to be documenting this for the Chilliwack. More next week.
We 4 again started our weekly steelhead count at the outlet of Chilliwack Lake this morning. Water conditions were acceptable for viewing fish but considerably higher and a bit more turbid than previous dates, water temp was 8.5 C. Today we observed 21 mostly spawning steelhead ( in 2012, May 10, we saw 30); included in this mix were a few trout, again hanging out with spawning steelhead, and one 6-7 lb char, just looking happy and healthy.
Next up was Centennial Channel; water temp 9.5 C. We were happy to see much more gravel movement and redd production from last week and today we counted 18 (in 2011, 32 and in 2012, 7) along with one 3-4 lb trout. Conditions for observations were compromised due to the increased riparian growth and sunlight overhead of branches creating shadows. We all agreed we did not see all the fish in the channel today, and suspect the fish we saw today were not last week’s ... a theory we wish we could quantify.
Angelwing Channel was next walked with no fish or fresh redds observed; last year on this date we saw 7 fish.
The water at the 3rd bridge where we saw 18 last week was too high for observations.
All in all this was a good day with good friends, doing something we enjoy. Lots of coho fry showing in Centennial, no sign of poaching or predation anywhere, other than a few morons falling trees and leaving their usual garbage. We find it interesting that we are seeing more resident trout hanging out with spawning steelhead... Most likely this is common on coastal rivers but we are happy to be documenting this for the Chilliwack. More next week.
Wanna show us your test results, BN? Or is this you just wishing aloud and hoping nobody will call you on your BS?
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Can you say with 100% certainty which strain of PVR it is? Show me those results.
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/news090513.php
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/news090513.php
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That's your "test results", Birdsnest - quoting yourself?
Clare Backman states: "Contrary to the opinions of Ms. Morton, DFO and CFIA do not consider PRV as a microbe of concern and it is not on the list of reportable diseases/pathogens. At the present time PRV appears to be a benign virus that may have been long present in the world's oceans."
Actually the only thing DFO and CFIA concern themselves about is covering their arses and their data from the public and the affected First Nations.
"appears to be benign" is such a laughable and bizarre assertion that it would be a hilareous comment if it weren't for the consequences that the farm industry appears either oblivious to - or cares not a fig about.
Garseth et al 2013 state: "if wild salmon show signs of the disease they would be “less capable of returning to rivers,” and all these samples were from the rivers. “In general, diseased wild fish are difficult to sample because they display abnormal behaviour or reduced swimming capacity and will be removed by predators or otherwise disappear in the mass of water."
The strain sequenced in BC is of Norwegian genotype and diverged from Norwegian sub-genotype Ia in 2006 ± 1
I think you know the saying BN: "Better to be thought a fool than to opens ones mouth and remove all doubt"?
Clare Backman states: "Contrary to the opinions of Ms. Morton, DFO and CFIA do not consider PRV as a microbe of concern and it is not on the list of reportable diseases/pathogens. At the present time PRV appears to be a benign virus that may have been long present in the world's oceans."
Actually the only thing DFO and CFIA concern themselves about is covering their arses and their data from the public and the affected First Nations.
"appears to be benign" is such a laughable and bizarre assertion that it would be a hilareous comment if it weren't for the consequences that the farm industry appears either oblivious to - or cares not a fig about.
Garseth et al 2013 state: "if wild salmon show signs of the disease they would be “less capable of returning to rivers,” and all these samples were from the rivers. “In general, diseased wild fish are difficult to sample because they display abnormal behaviour or reduced swimming capacity and will be removed by predators or otherwise disappear in the mass of water."
The strain sequenced in BC is of Norwegian genotype and diverged from Norwegian sub-genotype Ia in 2006 ± 1
I think you know the saying BN: "Better to be thought a fool than to opens ones mouth and remove all doubt"?
sockeyefry2
Member
Wow one of the most self serving and desperate pieces of propaganda spin I have ever read from the net pen industry and that is saying something because they excel at it. I guess they have to be good at it or they would be long gone.
I am amazed you had the balls to post it here given how well educated most of us are on the subject. Many of us have been reading on open Atlantic net pens for years and anyone who is not a naive fool or blinded by greed and self interest can see what is going on. It is not complicated and it is not rocket science.
Time to close these open pen feedlots down now. I do not want my tax dollars, subsidizing and protecting the Norwegian net pen corporations any longer. There are better things to do with that money that could actually help Pacific salmon and benefit the economy of coastal BC rather than threaten and damage it.
Save Pacific Salmon, get rid of the alien Atlantic salmon net pens. It is just that simple.
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Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
Hear, Hear Rockfish! We must continue to fight to rid our coast of these polluting, disease spreading, unsustainable feedlots and start working with the environment (not against it, like the net pen feedlots) to produce more abundant WILD salmon for the future!
We need to get this message out more to the general public so they can clearly see the advantanges of wild over industrial farmed fish (i.e. full of diseases, pesticides, pollution and perhaps soon, genetically modified franken fish - yikes it just keeps getting worse with the salmon feedlots doesn't it!).
IMO the best way to shut down the salmon feedlots is a combined approach to expose them on some of their biggest weakspots. First, is to expose their propensity to spread disease. Second, and most importantly is a media campaign to the public about why they should not buy/eat farmed salmon. This is their ultimalte weakspot, make salmon farms uneconomic to run and they will disappear.
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I tell you, these folks representing and defending this pest industry are not smart. They are actually down right dumb. It baffles me that they got away with it for so many years. That tells me that either all the governing bodies are equally dumb to not see this or thoroughly corrupt. Which one is it? Or both? If it wasn't so sad for the wild salmon it would actually be an enjoyable comical theater show that the fish farm supporters put on for us. Their arguments are often so laughable. I'd be so ashamed and embarrassed to be associated with some of the statements made by the industry spin doctors that I'd probably leave the country incognito to never be recognized again. You must be really dumb to go along with this or totally screwed up.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
Question and Answer: Piscine Reovirus
PISCINE REOVIRUS (PRV)
Q: What is PRV?
Piscine Reovirus is a virus that can infect Atlantic and Pacific salmonids. Reoviruses get their name because many are respiratory and !nteric Q.rphans. They are called "orphans" because many are viruses without an associated disease. PRV is new to fish health research. At this point, there has been no link between the presence of PRV and any disease.
Might have to disagree there! Piscine Reovirus (PRV) is a and has been imported from Norway by your Norwegian feedlot companies and certainly has been linked to heart and skeletal muscle inflammation (HSMI).
'The first detection of piscine reovirus (PRV) in marinefish species':
"A severe disease affecting farmed Atlantic salmon Salmo salar L. in Norway is heart and skeletal muscle inflammation (HSMI). The etiology of the disease is unknown. However, in 2010, piscine reovirus (PRV) was identified in fish from an outbreak of HSMI as well as in experimentally challenged fish (Palacios et al. 2010). The disease generally affects Atlantic salmon several months after transfer to seawater, when the fish weigh approximately 1 kg. Morbidity is high, as most fish in a sea cage are affected with histopathological lesions in the heart and skeletal muscle. However, the mortality varies from almost insignificant to 20% (Kongtorp et al. 2004). HSMI was first described in 1999 and the number of outbreaks has increased, with 131 registered outbreaks in 2010 (Bornøeet al. 2011). The causative agent of the disease is assumed to be a naked, double-stranded RNA virus related to the Reoviridae group, named PRV (Palacios et al. 2010). PRV is detected in both farmed and wild Atlantic salmon. In wild Atlantic salmon PRV has only been detected in low quantities (Palacios et al. 2010). For PRV and other viral pathogens that cause economic losses in aquaculture there is a potential for the transfer of virus from wild to farmed fish and vice versa. Other viral reservoirs and vectors in the marine environment are also possible.
Q: Is PRV found in BC?
PRV was first detected in Norway in 2010 and was subsequently found to be in BC. PRV has been found in both wild and farm-raised salmon.
Yep! Detected in Norway in 2010 and somehow the same exact Norwegian strain is now being found in BC farmed salmon!
Q: What impact does PRV have on salmon?
PRV has been detected in healthy fish in healthy populations, showing that its presence does not mean disease occurs. At the present time PRV appears to be a benign virus that may have been long present in the world's ocean. PRV has never been linked to the death of a farm-raised salmon in BC.
'The first detection of piscine reovirus (PRV) in marinefish species':
"The fish species that tested positive with the PRV-specific real-time PCR are common species found along the Norwegian coast at different periods of the year."
"For PRV and other viral pathogens that cause economic losses in aquaculture there is a potential for the transfer of virus from wild to farmed fish and vice versa. Other viral reservoirs and vectors in the marine environment are also possible.
That would be long present in the Norwegian ocean - would NOT be the world's, yet.
'Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation of Farmed Salmon Is Associated with Infection with a Novel
Reovirus'
"Disease can be induced in naive fish by experimental injection with tissue homogenate from HSMI diseased fish or by cohabitation with fish with HSMI[1]. Virus-like particles have been observed[4]; however, efforts to implicate an
infectious agent by using culture, subtractive cloning andconsensus polymerase chain reaction for detection of other viruses found in salmon aquaculture including infectious pancreaticnecrosis virus, salmonoid alphavirus, infectious salmon anemia virus have been unsuccessful.
"Here we provide evidence that HSMI is associated with infection with a novel reovirus. Piscine reovirus (PRV) was
identified through high-throughput pyrosequencing of serum and heart tissue of experimentally infected fish using novel frequency analysis methods as well as standard alignment methods.
"Unlike terrestrial animal farming, where contact between domestic and free ranging wild animals of the same or closely related species is easily monitored and controlled, ocean based aquaculture is an open system wherein farmed fish may incubate and transmit infectious agents to already diminishing stocks of wild fish. Formal implication of PRV in HSMI will require isolation in cell culture and fulfillment of Koch’s postulates, or prevention or modification of disease through use of specific drugs or vaccines. Nonetheless, as our data indicate that a causal relationship is
plausible, it is urgent that measures be taken to control PRV not only because it threatens domestic salmon production but also due to the potential for transmission to wild salmon populations.
Q: But isn't a virus a disease?
No, there are millions of viruses in every drop of water. The vast majority can be carried by all manner of living things, and never cause disease. Just because a virus is detected does not mean a disease is present. Other reoviruses have been found for decades in wild fish.
Yep, virus isn't a disease; however, guess what - once it is recognized as causing (HSMI) it will no longer be considered a "reovirus!
Q: Do salmon farmers test for PRV?
No, as it is not linked to disease, it is not tested for by salmon farmers. As well, DFO and CFIA do not have PRV on the list of reportable diseases/pathogens.
That simply is not true! Dr Marty tested for PRV in 2010, with negative results. NO PRV detected in 2010. Both DFO and CFIA publically stated PRV was NOT present in BC. Problem with that, Dr Marty also tested again in 2012 and advised 70% of "farmed Atlantic salmon tested positive?
Time to put PRV on that list of reportable diseases/pathogens.
Q: What about the link between PRV and HSMI (Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation)? There has been no causal link between PRV and HSMI. A paper published in Norway in 2012 suggests that PRV is a cause of HSMI, but the paper notes specifically that the finding of PRV does not establish an HSMI diagnosis- and the paper's conclusions are not uniformly accepted. While PRV has been found in BC, HSMI has not.
Might want to read: 'The first detection of piscine reovirus (PRV) in marinefish species' and 'Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation of Farmed Salmon Is Associated with Infection with a Novel Reovirus'
Q: Is there any human health risk with either PRV or HSMI? No, PRV and HSMI are not a human health risk
HSMI is the disease and not considered human health risk, especially as the PRV virus is known to die after the HSMI disease progresses. HOWEVER; PRV is a virus "implicated in numerous diseases of poultry, including enteritis, myocarditis, and hepatitis. One might want to read 'Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation of Farmed Salmon Is Associated with Infection with a Novel Reovirus' a little closer, and in particular 'Figure 2. Phylogenetic analysis of the RNA-dependent RNA-polymerase of Reoviridae" - A LOT CLOSER before stating PRV not a human health risk!!!! It actually shows under "Orthorovirus - 10 segments" as that shows and establishesa link between the "Mammalian orthoreovirus and "Avian orthoreovirus . You are feeding humans a virus linked to a mammals known to cause heart diseases? Might want to think about "Bird Flu" there:
"Moreover, PRV has been also detected in low quantities in wild Atlantic salmon. Nonetheless, the tissue distribution and load of PRV are correlated with disease in naturally and experimentally infected salmon. Analogies between commercial poultry production and Atlantic salmon aquaculture may be informative. Reoviruses are also implicated in numerous diseases of poultry, including enteritis, myocarditis, and hepatitis[13]. Both poultry production and aquaculture confine animals at high density in conditions that are conducive to transmission of infectious agents
and may reduce resistance to disease by induction of stress.
T
tortuga
Guest
Pretty sure cattle ranchers don't hunt for cattle. And just as sure they eat their own product.
So I guess it goes without saying that you practice catch and release, because you feed your family and friends your farmed Atlantic salmon.
Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
no no no calmsea. You see charlie has been on here for years bashing away at canadian salmon farms all the while never once making a comparison to his US atlantic salmon farms whom as KC points out started the whole atlantic program here out west. So why is it that he never made any such comparisons if they are so superior environmentally as charlie has clearly stated. Why did he never ever point it out? What baffles me is how everyone here just kinda let that slide. Nobody raised an eyebrow to it. Mind-blowing. Did no one here even notice his statements about american atlantic salmon farms in pugit sound or is charlie one of your guys so its ok lets just, whatever. Well if you didn't notice charlie fully supports atlantic salmon farming in pugit sound. So calmsea I guess charlie is equally subject to all the name calling and rhetoric as the rest of us pro farmers.
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you could make a valid point if I said they went wild cow hunting in their free time. If I owned the salmon farm there would be plenty of farm salmon around my house but I have to buy it like everyone else so why would I? I am clubbing wild salmon like everyone else here but since I am a fish farmer I seem to fall under a different set of ethics.
stones93
Well-Known Member
tincan
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread once again. Same ole same ole from the usual suspects on the pro-fish farming side which is expected at this point. On a more serious note I think it should be stated that PRV is currently the virus that many top scientists are MOST concerned about (moreso than ISA, etc). The fact the industry tries to shrug it off as just another "non-reportable" virus/disease surely doesn't mean that it is something to be taken lightly. Quite the contrary. PRV and HMSI are tops of the list of concerns for the multi-year research project currently being undertaken by Genome BC/DFO(Miller)/PSF.
Also contrary to what the usual FF proponents will tell you, the industry (open-pen FF) are scared sh*tless about what this research project will find and are trying to do all they can to stop it/suppress the findings. For once, I am hopefully that they will not succeed in the muzzling they hope to achieve. It's unfortunate that it's taken this long to conduct the proper research to confirm the known pathogens in our Pacific waters but finally it is being done and hopefully we will shortly have indisputable evidence that open-pen fish farms are seriously causing harm to our wild Pacific salmon.... so indisputable that even the industry won't be able to deny. I am not hoping that this is the case (as it will confirm our fears) but I am confident that it will.
Also contrary to what the usual FF proponents will tell you, the industry (open-pen FF) are scared sh*tless about what this research project will find and are trying to do all they can to stop it/suppress the findings. For once, I am hopefully that they will not succeed in the muzzling they hope to achieve. It's unfortunate that it's taken this long to conduct the proper research to confirm the known pathogens in our Pacific waters but finally it is being done and hopefully we will shortly have indisputable evidence that open-pen fish farms are seriously causing harm to our wild Pacific salmon.... so indisputable that even the industry won't be able to deny. I am not hoping that this is the case (as it will confirm our fears) but I am confident that it will.
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