First Closed containment Salmon Farm pen

[Rockfish]

I am not so sure these ads are effective. The fish farm issue is so well know in BC that I think most viewers see them and think if they feel the need to spend huge money on TV ads they must be desperate and there must be something to all the concerns about them.

Not to mention that this issue has been flying a little below the radar lately, why remind the public of the controversy and refocus and re-energize you opponents. My guess is they decided on and paid for these ads some time ago when they were panicking. Since I am opposed to the salmon feed lots I am pleased to see them publicly put the issue front and centre again.

 

[sockeyefry2]

Hey Cuttle,

Yep it's just my educated opinion. I am trying to find references, but funny thing about bankruptcies no one sems to write a paper about them.

I agree that the industry should be held accountable, but they should be held to the same standards as every other human enterprise. They should not be made to attain higher standards just because one of their effects is on wild salmon.

I know that CC's offer an alternative to net pens which people who want the nets out of the ocean really want to believe, but reality is that the increased costs will not allow the industry to survive should they be required to adoopt the technology.

So if you want a salmon farming industry and you want to mitigate the effects on the environment then you must find areas where you will permit the activity to be done using current technology. In other words you must be willing to accept some environmental effect, much like we accept a clear cut hillside as long as it doesn't impact the river below it.

 

[wolf]

In other words you must be willing to accept some environmental effect,

UMMMMMM what are you talking about the effects it is doing now far exceeds what should be going on.those farms are down right disgusting, ive sen it first hand and many a client in the upper regions of knight inlet. you keep going on about cost WHO cares up the price then. dont give the arguement cost,cost cost. its not a viable one sorry.

If SHAMU can live in a CC tank for 20 yrs im sure a fish can for his life span of 2 yrs. And you say you need SPACE have you ever seen the size of that abaondoned EVE river site I bet you its got to be about 100 acres or close to it and its FLAT (from what you stated earlier) even better all TARMACKED and thats just one abondoned site im sure there is many more.As logging has taken a for shiat now and there up and leaving these sites.

You say just the effects on salmon hmmmmm ok.
I know that site in the SAR. pass I had my father up there about 5 or so years ago calm waters for about 3 days the stink and the oil sheen that came off of that place was F_en gross my dad commented on it saying why the hell do they allow that. when I left there 2 years ago in that area that site WAS still there coming up 20 years at the same place......we used to catch halibut in there every time out and in no way was it over fished because we would maybe fish it 1 time in a week and take 2 as we would go to other places that was just our "goto" spot as we didnt want to take people near it to see it. So its just not on salmon.
its on the halibut and salmon and what used to be a great prawn spot (not anymore) ive seen the videos and what it looks like underneath these pens (NOT PRETTY BY ANY MEANS) im sorry but you cant convince me to ever change my mind on them i think they are bad im sure some are run with high standards just like with any businesses you have good ones who care and some who just dont give a rats a$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Wolf

 

[sockeyefry2]

I went to the DFO website to read the CC report, just to make sure it didn't change much since I looked it over in draft form. have any of you read it?

The only CC system which has a hope is an onshore recirculation system (RAS). All the other systems which are solid walled versions of net pens, which this middle bay project were not profitable.

After 3 years the typical netpen system (NPS) had a 52% Return on Investment (ROI) on an initial capital outlay of $5 million. The RAS had a ROI of 4% on a $23 million capital outlay.

In a sensitivity analysis which modelled how changes in the assumptions such as sale price or slower fish growth affect the profitability, the NPS was still profitable. The RAS was very sensitive to even a small change in the assumptions and did not maintain profitablity.

The reasons DFO gave for the RAS's lower profitability han the NPS are: Higher Depreciation & Debt Service due to its higher capital costs; Higher labour cost due to the RAS requiring more people to operate; and higher energy costs.

If you were going to invest your money which one would you chose? It's a question obviously for the fish farm companies, but also for the province of BC who after they legislate CC's will be asked to come up with $$$$ to help in the transition out of the ocean. Do you think it is a good investment of your tax dollars?

 

[sockeyefry2]

Wolf

I'm not trying to convince you that net pens are good. That's the industries job. I am trying to point out that CC's are not a viable option and BC should not waste $$$ and time on them. Read the DFO report. You will see that it will end up costing Mega $$$ and ultimately will result in the shutting down of the BC salmon farming industry. If you persist in demanding CC's be implemented than I can only conclude that this is your ultimate goal.

You can't simply up the price because being a commodity, the price is set by world wide supply and demand.

Go and read the DFO report.

 

[wolf]

But what if it was level palying field???? and EVERYONE had to go that way. then it would make it viable...
when you say

Higher labour cost due to the RAS requiring more people to operate; and higher energy costs.

especially REQUIRING MORE PEOPLE to operate
WOW what a concept more people employed in your local community ok HOW is that bad?????????
and make your own energy thats what generators are for........

 

[cuttlefish]

My point exactly. 52% RoI should give leeway to recover some of those freebies currently being off-loaded by net pen operations to the public waters. Don't know of any other farming operations enjoying that kind of return.

 

[sockeyefry2]

Wolf,

You do understand how generators work right? They need to burn fuel to make elctricity which costs more than from the grid.
You do understand that businesses are not charity operations right? They try to keep costs below revenues, and don't keep workers around thyey do not need.

Yep Cuttle, that's what I am saying. They can afford to operate in a more environmentally friendly manner, such as limiting the number of fish per pen.
Net pens in a more eco friendly manner that's the solution not CC's. Start by closing down all the sites that require artificial means such as compressors and lights to make them viable. Free up migratory routes in the Broughton. You will end up with a smaller, but much more efficient industry.

 

[wolf]

YES very familuar with them thats my point though when the floating pens you still have a generator to supprt that farm right??? you need pwer be it on land or on the water Right???now if it was on land and you didnt have to pay for boats,fuel,upkeep of them boats etc etc asociated with it all ie man hours spent getting to the places about 3 hours the fuel for the boats etc etc ALL that expenses would be gone as you dont need any of that anymore your just deferring it all look at just one of them crew boats they go foa about 150 grand the money could EASLY run generaors for sure...

Dont get me wrong I do think we need salmon farms to feed people just do it as to no more harm to OUR water!!!!!!! thats all .....why dont the want the BACK in norway anyways there has to be some reason??????? I know do you???.

BTW good debate thanks...

Wolf

 

[sockeyefry2]

Wolf

Did you read my last post? Especially the last lines. I am agreeing with you. Net pens are the best system for rearing salmon, but they must be done in an eco friendly manner. First sites to be shut down are any that require generators, compressors and lights to make them viable.
hour
Just to gve you an idea of the power reqiuirement to move water, 4 tanks which can grow 40 tonnes of salmon require 16,000 lpm. In order to provide this flow you need a 30 hp pump. this is approx. 30 kw. @ 5 cent per KWH these pumps cost $1.50 per hour. That is $36 per day, everyday for 16 months. That is $17,280, or 43 cents per kg. Even if you get optomistic in your projections and figure you can grow the same fish in 12 months, this still adds 32 cents to every kg produced. Your competitors in the rest of the world do not have these added costs, and therefore can beat your lowest price and still make a profit.

It is better to push the industry to be accountable for the environments they use, and to shut down marginal farm sites than to insist they adopt methodologies that doom them t0 extinction. Unless of course this is your untlimate goal of having no farm industry, than by all means ignore what I am suggesting and proceed with closed containment.

 

[Dogbreath]

The numbers as quoted above and others I've seen make it painfully apparent that raising piscivorous fish isn't a money making proposition without subsidies-either free use of the environment or cheap fuel to harvest feed or a dozen other dodges.

These corporations are addicted to the Govt teat one way or the other and like all addicts are the last ones to admit their addiction.

 

[wolf]

Well thats just the cost of doing business more pens and more fish would ultimatlly mean a lower price (Eventually) especially if everyone had to do it. ill be honest I could care less if it cost 3 bucks more per fish as I would never buy it anyway you know the ol saying "IF u built it they will come" same shiat look at the price of gas.booze,smokes in the last year I bet you the price of all that has increased probablly more than 30 % but we still buy it dont we!!!!! people will pay it if they REALLY want it wont they.....

Wolf

 

[cuttlefish]

So cost for pumping water = C$.43/kg. of fish produced. Today's price for our biggest competitors fish is 39.61 Norwegian kroner/kg. http://akvafakta.fhl.no/. Sorry about no translation.
NOK 39.61/kg. = C$6.85/kg.
C$.43 is 6.3% of C$6.85. Is that too much of a production tax on net pen farms for free use of the environment to level the playing field with closed containment operations that don't use them?

 

[Mi Chica]

Nice. Another "costs too much"" bubble burst. Closed containment - land or water based - or get them the H... out of our waters. They can go back to Norway. Oops, they don't want them there either, do they? Oh well, there must be someplace other than Canada stupid enough to let them in, after all, all they need is to find a country where politicians are venal or as stupid as we have here.

 

[wolf]

But it wouldnt cost to much if EVERY farm had to do it. then they are ALL on a level playing field....


Wolf

 

[sockeyefry2]

Cuttle,

That's just one increased cost. There are others such as oxygen, labour, depreciation, interest & Debt service. Prices are currently very high, due to the lack of Chilean product. It wasn't too long ago when the price was under $4 per kg. Costs of production in BC in Net pens range from $3 - 4 per kg. $4 per kg prices paid for salmon are a more normal price. A CC farm will be out of business when that happens. You can't tax McDonalds hamburgers or Walmart just because Bob's diner or Mom & Pops hardware is noit competitive.

A legislated move to CC will give Mi Chica what he wants. No salmon industry in BC waters.

 

[wolf]

Got to admire your spunk sockeye but when you put in

labour, depreciation, interest & Debt service. Prices are currently very high

thats the price of doing business so I dont buy it sorry.
labour costs well thats already there so what... SELL the product for more money they will buy it if not move them the hell out of our waters to somewhere else!!!!!! like mi chia said send them back to norway, or right they dont want them there hey i know send them back to the atlantic where they belong!!!!!!!!!!!!!! leave OUR PACIFIC salmon alone

 

[profisher]

Just wondering how you propose to legislate that Chile or Japan or Norway go to nothing but CC so that the BC farms forced to do so are competitive? Roy, how would you as guide handle- say..your marina cutting into your profits by demanding a $50.00 per trip fee regardless of its origin? (yours or theirs) They have no jurisdiction over the other mariana's so your ability to compete has been compromised. Just using that example to put you into "their" frame of mind. Not a supporter of the farms but I agree that no point changing to a system that causes people in the industry financial harm.

 

[cuttlefish]

Competitive with whom? These are global multi-nationals so they are competing with themselves. Just like any industry they play this competition card to lobby local government to lower standards and tax rates to the lowest common denominator with the threat of job loss if government doesn't knuckle under.

Sure prices are high right now but, from the looks of that website I linked to in my last post, the last time the price dipped to C$4/kg. was October 2009 and only for about 2 weeks. The line looks pretty stable and trending slowly upward.

True, Chile is off-line right now due to deadly disease spreading uncontrollably through-out their farming areas. Heaven forbid that ever happens here where there are wild salmon. Why did it happen there? Poor regulations are part of it. Should our regulations and tax rates be more like Chile's so that industry here is more competitive when they come back on-line? I think not. Others looking only at the bottom line may disagree.

I'm still in awe at the 52% RoI on a $5 million outlay for a net cage operation in that DFO study sockeyefry2 referred to earlier. That's $2.6 million return in 3 years! "Gluttonous" is the word that comes to my mind. No wonder there is such resistance to change in the industry.

Let's all hope those guys in Middle Bay make a go of it. Gotta give them full marks for trying.

 

[wolf]

Your missing the point pro thats not even worth a comment...