Federal Court of Appeal quashes construction approvals for Trans Mountain

[Floater]

Floater - just because we have an alternative viewpoint to share and discuss does not mean we "hate oil". It means we recognize we need to develop alternatives - for many reasons. It's a pretty simple and responsible argument.

I recognize the same thing AA. But I get the impression some people think we have the ability to change our main energy source tomorrow, but except for nefarious reasons we don’t.

I’m sorry if my comment comes across condescending, but that idea is pretty childlike/utopian. The math has been done, many times. Current alternate supply is decades off being a reliable. That’s just fact. I will also bet the new solution won’t look anything like the wind/solar we are wasting money on right now.

The will is there to make the change, myself included. But in the meantime, going against oil infrastructure in BC and missing out on the injection of money we will get in our economy is (in my never humble opinion) cutting off our nose to spite our face.

 

[GLG]

You speak of California’s fires? Of course they are huge when they won’t allocate water to fight them. I wonder why that is?

California has many problems with fires this year but allocating water to fight them is not one of them. Here is a video from Fox,that you may trust more than me, that points them out.

 

[walleyes]

I recognize the same thing AA. But I get the impression some people think we have the ability to change our main energy source tomorrow, but except for nefarious reasons we don’t.

I’m sorry if my comment comes across condescending, but that idea is pretty childlike/utopian. The math has been done, many times. Current alternate supply is decades off being a reliable. That’s just fact. I will also bet the new solution won’t look anything like the wind/solar we are wasting money on right now.

The will is there to make the change, myself included. But in the meantime, going against oil infrastructure in BC and missing out on the injection of money we will get in our economy is (in my never humble opinion) cutting off our nose to spite our face.

My friend I've been having this discussion with them on this board for 10 years now. 10 years ago they all said in 5 years oil would be dead. 5 year ago they said in 8 years oil will be obsolete. Well here we are time keeps marching on oil usage keeps increasing and will do so until alteast 2039 - 50 then start to decrease in incremental steps. But you can't discuss this with them it's like talking to your 6 year old that no matter what you say, you can be right as rain they'll stand there and say, yah but my friend said, yah but my friend said lol,, it's pointless. They live in a small world it ends at that ferry and for some the world ceases to exist just beyond that ridge just east of Hope BC. Just let them exists in their world,, trust me your head will appreciate it.

 

[Deleted member 8461]

My friend I've been having this discussion with them on this board for 10 years now. 10 years ago they all said in 5 years oil would be dead. 5 year ago they said in 8 years oil will be obsolete. Well here we are time keeps marching on oil usage keeps increasing and will do so until alteast 2039 - 50 then start to decrease in incremental steps. But you can't discuss this with them it's like talking to your 6 year old that no matter what you say, you can be right as rain they'll stand there and say, yah but my friend said, yah but my friend said lol,, it's pointless. They live in a small world it ends at that ferry and for some the world ceases to exist just beyond that ridge just east of Hope BC. Just let them exists in their world,, trust me your head will appreciate it.

LOL, please put your paint set away...you can't group all of the inhabitants of Paradise Isle in your soiree of minced words. My dialog is solid in terms of stating how ingrained oil is in all of our daily lives. It would kill economies to instantly stop production, that would be stupid and unacceptable. People are not as stupid in real life in the way that you are trying to elude. They recognize the value in manufactured products, food production, shipping, daily living and more...like are you calling everyone an Indian also? Seems like the same kind of brush, same paint set maker perhaps?? Hmmm. LOL

Plain silly. IMHO.

 

[Floater]

California has many problems with fires this year but allocating water to fight them is not one of them. Here is a video from Fox,that you may trust more than me, that points them out.

Well, I’m not sure if you watched the video you just linked, but if you did you would see that the opinion of the person interviewed said there was a discrepancy of what Trump said vs the water allocation. Plenty of documentation that says the water needed by firemen wasn’t allocated, please look it up.

He also said that he feels that wildfires are maginified by enviro policies that prevent steps being taken to minimize them.

You basically made my argument for me.

This shouldn’t about being who is right and who is wrong. It’s playing the cards as dealt and as they are dealt, you look foolish.

 

[Floater]

LOL, please put your paint set away...you can't group all of the inhabitants of Paradise Isle in your soiree of minced words. My dialog is solid in terms of stating how ingrained oil is in all of our daily lives. It would kill economies to instantly stop production, that would be stupid and unacceptable. People are not as stupid in real life in the way that you are trying to elude. They recognize the value in manufactured products, food production, shipping, daily living and more...like are you calling everyone an Indian also? Seems like the same kind of brush, same paint set maker perhaps?? Hmmm. LOL

Plain silly. IMHO.

I’m sorry, the vast majority of Oil haters don’t have a clue what eliminating it from our daily lives would entail.

They live in a fantasy world and will keep their vocal adversary stance right up until it actually impacts their day to day lives.

 

[Deleted member 8461]

I’m sorry, the vast majority of Oil haters don’t have a clue what eliminating it from our daily lives would entail.

They live in a fantasy world and will keep their vocal adversary stance right up until it actually impacts their day to day lives.

Be sorry all you want, but don't paint me or numerous others who understand how the real world works with the same brush. I'll tell you that alt energy options are very strong and well. More and more will become mainstream as the public begins to accept it. This does however not at all mean that oil is dead or dying or going to disappear in the next 100 years. So I could careless if you are for or against...the changes are going to come into effect over the next 6 to 10 years. They are called choices. The consumer can pick to use what ever they want to use. It is how it is.

 

[Floater]

Be sorry all you want, but don't paint me or numerous others who understand how the real world works with the same brush. I'll tell you that alt energy options are very strong and well. More and more will become mainstream as the public begins to accept it. This does however not at all mean that oil is dead or dying or going to disappear in the next 100 years. So I could careless if you are for or against...the changes are going to come into effect over the next 6 to 10 years. They are called choices. The consumer can pick to use what ever they want to use. It is how it is.

Im not sorry for any of my failings, im sorry that being “virtuous” these days means pumping out half truths and emotional demagoguery.

I think you may be confusing the end product with the source.

I see a great demand for EV vehicles in the coming years. They are outta this world in performance ratings. But they have to get their energy from somewhere and at this point in time the means of producing that energy, on top of JUST our day to day requirements is not able to be met by the political smoke screen of “alternate energy”.

I want what you want, but I just want it to happen naturally and in an orderly fashion.

 

[Deleted member 8461]

Im not sorry for any of my failings, im sorry that being “virtuous” these days means pumping out half truths and emotional demagoguery.

I think you may be confusing the end product with the source.

I see a great demand for EV vehicles in the coming years. They are outta this world in performance ratings. But they have to get their energy from somewhere and at this point in time the means of producing that energy, on top of JUST our day to day requirements is not able to be met by the political smoke screen of “alternate energy”.

I want what you want, but I just want it to happen naturally and in an orderly fashion.

The earths natural electrical energy is an amazing thing. We all will enjoy a better world eventually. That is and has been my point. It all includes choice to the consumer. All good.

 

[agentaqua]

I think population controls would solve most resource based issues tho.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2063450827245673

 

[agentaqua]

I recognize the same thing AA. But I get the impression some people think we have the ability to change our main energy source tomorrow, but except for nefarious reasons we don’t...

I understand people don't like change and resist it - until they can't anymore. We will get there - in like 40 years or so. Nobody is talking about it yet it seems. It'll be easier if we plan for it:

 

[Deleted member 8461]

Came across this BBC Documentary tonight. Interesting. Wonder if anything is close to the direction we as humans may take our future to.

 

[walleyes]

Anyways, blah, blah, blah back to the original topic.

I don't think this line will ever get built and in the end it's no big deal really. I've stated it on here before I believe but this line was not going be the save all for the industry in Alberta anyways. The port to which it lies is not suitable for super tankers, they do not send small tankers overseas it only pays to ship in super tankers. This oil was all going to be going south to California refineries so we would still be shackled to the US price. Of course this is not spoken about loudly because it doesn't make enough noise, doesn't sound drastic enough. The biggest problem with the cancellation is the message it sends to investors in the industry but that blows over in time. If companies run a sustainable business investors will invest in their company. Canada remains a peaceful stable country to invest in and the large investment firms will continue to invest in stable companies. The days of investment companies giving our money away to the company which expand the fastest they want to see companies that can sustain themselves in all market conditions. Gone are the days our companies compete with each other for investment dollars we now compete with the likes of Google and Facebook and alternative energy companies again it's about steady rates of return not high risk investments. The money will find it's way to get through it always does, eventually I would think Line 3 gets built as well as Keystone XL after these are built there will be an excess of line available. It will come to the point a line will get built out of Canada via a coast we just have to find the right place.

But I think the big concern at this point should be what the heck are we as the tax payer / owners of Trans mountain going to do with this turd now. Groper boys knee jerk reaction to buy this thing has left the tax payer on the hook for 4.5 billion dollars, that's 4.5 billion dollars we didn't have, it's more borrowed money. Nobody in their right mind wants to buy this aging line not without the expansion it just doesn't make sense. This will be the end of fancy socks and his band of fools and that my friends is worth all of it to me.

https://boereport.com/2018/08/31/tr...-delayed-for-years-by-court-decision-experts/

And who other than the tax payer is going to pay for the pending lawsuits that will be coming on behalf of these companies that have spent huge amounts of dollars in preporation in building this project, we have some big unions involved in this project what about the First Natins groups that were going to benefit and had contracts for supplying this project. I can see some huge lawsuits on the way. What a mess.

https://boereport.com/2018/09/01/wo...n-limbo-after-trans-mountain-pipeline-ruling/

 

[agentaqua]

Natural Resources committee meeting today to talk about pipeline decision
Federal Court of Appeal overturned approval of controversial pipeline expansion last week
Mia Rabson · The Canadian Press · Posted: Sep 04, 2018
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/natural-resources-committee-pipeline-decision-1.4809357

 

[walleyes]

I also think it worth noting that it's not Kinder Morgan that the courts found didn't properly consult First Nations but the government themselves. Blame it on Harper or whom ever but the standing NEB rules at the time were a long standing set of rules that went through more than one party in rule so to single out any party for the process that was used is wrong. First Nations groups want a say and with that I would think more money and jobs for themselves, so be it, if it's jobs for them in the end good, they should have it. We can't keep demanding they " work for a living " and not give them jobs or work or a means of obtaining said work. Some of the policies being put forward in the new rules regarding the approval process I believe are unattainable and have to be scrapped but hopefully in the end the final policy changes can benefit all groups. We have to start to look after our environment that goes without out saying no one disagrees with that, but we also need a clear process to build major projects. What creates backlash from investors is the uncertainty in a process not the process itself.

 

[GLG]

Interesting podcast by University of Calgary Associate Professor of Economics, Trevor Tombe.
Well worth a listen for at least the first half that goes to the question on this pipeline.
https://livewirecalgary.com/2018/09...y-of-calgary-trevor-tombe/?platform=hootsuite

 

[Englishman]

What do you think fires did before we came here? They burnt much larger swathes and created future fire breaks. These aren’t any bigger, they are just reported that way and your short lifespan/memory makes it seem apocalyptic.

Of course there were fires in the past. However, it is not my memory that is in question, it is yours. The BC Forest Service said the fire season is now much hotter and longer than in the past, not me. Selective memory by climate change deniers tends to ignore facts like these.

BC/the world has been much hotter than this in the past.

You are no doubt conflating geological time periods with contemporary time periods. There is no doubt that BC and the entire planet is hotter than it was 150 years ago. Why do you think high temperature records keep falling world wide, year after year? It is because of climate change becaue the level of CO2 in the atmosphere now exceeds any value in the last 400,000 years. That is scientific fact and ignoring that is delusional.

http://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/400000-years-of-carbon-dioxide

You speak of California’s fires? Of course they are huge when they won’t allocate water to fight them. I wonder why that is?

As for California fires being made worse by diversion of water, you have been reading the Trump inspired right wing propaganda. It is all nonsense. They have plenty of water, as described in these articles.

https://newrepublic.com/article/150409/trump-blaming-californias-wildfires-water
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cal...ater-fight-wildfires-trumps/story?id=57064370

Cannot believe how much damage Trump's insane nonsense is doing, even up here!

Anyway, I’m not getting any further into this debate. I’ve said my peace and feel it’s the rational/adult take on the issue.

The only adult and rational thing to do is to take heed of the science and the evidence all around us, that confirms the science every single year now.

 

[Englishman]

I admire your passion but do some research, there is no way on earth that alternative energy can make up for the energy derived from oil, unless we could go use nuke power

Of course it could!

I have done plenty of research, and you clearly have not.

It would take only 254 square Kilometres of the Sahara covered in solar panels to power the entire world!

https://ecomarksolar.com/blog/can-solar-energy-replace-fossil-fuels/

It is just going to take some time.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/solar-and-wind-will-replace-fossil-fuels-within-20-years
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-age-of-wind-and-solar-is-closer-than-you-think/

Which is why we need to start now by spending any "spare" $13 Billion of taxpayers money in that direction, not on climate destroying bitumen pipelines.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Listen to BNN on my drive today, it seems some constitutional questions have arose from this court decisions. While the courts found the NEB process flawed, It was not the NEB process that the courts had a problem with they actually overturned the cabinets decision go ahead with the project.

The constitution question is if the courts actually have the authority to over turn the government of Canada cabinet authority.

Also that the duty to consult is not just about listening to the concerns but actually acting on them after they are herd. Something up until this point was not understood as the case. They found that the NEB process did do its duty but the Government of Canada and their cabinet did not consult after the NEB processes was done.



Its all pretty intresting, Seems like Justins got a big stinker!!

 

[Floater]

Of course there were fires in the past. However, it is not my memory that is in question, it is yours. The BC Forest Service said the fire season is now much hotter and longer than in the past, not me. Selective memory by climate change deniers tends to ignore facts like these.



You are no doubt conflating geological time periods with contemporary time periods. There is no doubt that BC and the entire planet is hotter than it was 150 years ago. Why do you think high temperature records keep falling world wide, year after year? It is because of climate change becaue the level of CO2 in the atmosphere now exceeds any value in the last 400,000 years. That is scientific fact and ignoring that is delusional.

http://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/400000-years-of-carbon-dioxide



As for California fires being made worse by diversion of water, you have been reading the Trump inspired right wing propaganda. It is all nonsense. They have plenty of water, as described in these articles.

https://newrepublic.com/article/150409/trump-blaming-californias-wildfires-water
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cal...ater-fight-wildfires-trumps/story?id=57064370

Cannot believe how much damage Trump's insane nonsense is doing, even up here!



The only adult and rational thing to do is to take heed of the science and the evidence all around us, that confirms the science every single year now.

That’s some rebuttal. You spent quite some time on that didn’t you.

Your still wrong though. Just sayin.