drilleryells
Member
thanks buster
Ethanol in Gas
- Thread starter Peahead
- Start date
Charlie
Well-Known Member
I do admit, sorry it was the, “Avoid ethenol in marine equipment whenever possible” that got me!
I don’t know, but there seems to be some misinformation and overreaction to ethanol and I am not sure why? If you are speaking of E-10 that is 10% ethanol 90% gasoline – buy it, use it, and quit worrying about it! It will actually help clean and probably be better for some of those engines than ‘most’ of the additives people like to use.
Ethanol = alcohol, nothing more, nothing less! It is the same-same as that stuff you drink! It really can’t be too much of problem for internal combustion engines, as Henry Ford is the first to use it – that’s fairly old. The only thing that ever slowed the production was the heavy “alcohol” tax! And yes, in the good ole’ old days people did drink it and still do, it called Moonshine.
Any gasoline engine manufactured in the past 15 years will run just fine on E-10; including Honda, Kawasaki, Mercury, OMC, Volvo Penta, Yamaha along with all the others – check your owner’s manuals. I don’t believe there is a one left that has not approved the use of E-10 unleaded gasoline for their engines. If your engine is older than 15, yes you might have a concern – but I really doubt it… and that sounds like it might be a good reason to upgrade? You could even use the ole ‘more environmental friendly’ excuse, because it is!
Same goes for all those “rubbers and gaskets in the fuel system”, “gas tanks (older ones made of fiberglass and some plastics)”, or “older aluminum fuel tank” and all the other “older equipment”. If that stuff is that old and effected – it is also “too old” and should be replaced anyway! It would be safer and cheaper to just replace those old fuel lines – than to keep buying fuel filters? As far as “additives” forget it, save your money most don’t work anyway! Unless you plan on letting the fuel set for a period of time – then you should use a stabilizer in any type of gasoline or other fuel.
I don’t know where the, “Americans, who have 15% ethanol in all their gas” came from but, the U.S. does not have 15% ethanol in all their gas. It is more like one out of every eight gallons of gasoline sold in the United States contains ethanol. The most common is the E-10, which is what is being discussed here. Now along with that, the U.S. does have ethanol and gasoline blends up to E-85 or 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol, both here in Washington and throughout the country. There is also hydrous ethanol (about 95% ethanol and 5% water), which can be used as fuel in more than 90% of new vehicles. The U.S. flex-fuel vehicles can run on 0% to 85% ethanol (15% gasoline), yours too. I don’t believe the hydrous ethanol blends are publically allowed, yet?
"faze separation" of the fuel? You might want to research a little bit more, or just read the following 1995 EPA memo? I don’t know whether to yell the sky is falling, or simply state, “phase separation is and always has been a valid concern with "all" gasolines. Water in any fuel is a reason for concern but, I would be more worried about “phase separation” using pre-mixed two stroke oil than with any ethanol based fuel? Well, that is unless you are letting water in your fuel tanks? Ethanol is miscible with water and it will draw water (moisture) into the fuel – that would be more of a - phase separation = very bad! Ethanol miscible = good!
“Water can enter gasoline engines in two ways: in solution with the fuel or as a separate phase from the gasoline. Water in solution operates as no more than an inert diluent in the combustion process. Since water is a natural product of combustion, any water in solution is removed with the product water in the exhaust system. The only effect water in solution with gasoline can have on an engine is decreased fuel economy. For example, assuming a high water concentration of 0.5 volume percent, one would see a 0.5 percent decrease in fuel economy. This fuel economy decrease is too low for an engine operator to notice, since many other factors (such as ambient temperature changes, wind and road conditions, etc.) affect fuel economy to a much larger extent.”
“(At a temperature of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much longer to saturate with water.”
Did you pick-up the "two years" and the "oxgenated gasolines can hold more water" parts? I’ll leave phase separation as a valid concern and would not be calling wolf there?
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Cheers!
I don’t know, but there seems to be some misinformation and overreaction to ethanol and I am not sure why? If you are speaking of E-10 that is 10% ethanol 90% gasoline – buy it, use it, and quit worrying about it! It will actually help clean and probably be better for some of those engines than ‘most’ of the additives people like to use.
Ethanol = alcohol, nothing more, nothing less! It is the same-same as that stuff you drink! It really can’t be too much of problem for internal combustion engines, as Henry Ford is the first to use it – that’s fairly old. The only thing that ever slowed the production was the heavy “alcohol” tax! And yes, in the good ole’ old days people did drink it and still do, it called Moonshine.
Any gasoline engine manufactured in the past 15 years will run just fine on E-10; including Honda, Kawasaki, Mercury, OMC, Volvo Penta, Yamaha along with all the others – check your owner’s manuals. I don’t believe there is a one left that has not approved the use of E-10 unleaded gasoline for their engines. If your engine is older than 15, yes you might have a concern – but I really doubt it… and that sounds like it might be a good reason to upgrade? You could even use the ole ‘more environmental friendly’ excuse, because it is!
Same goes for all those “rubbers and gaskets in the fuel system”, “gas tanks (older ones made of fiberglass and some plastics)”, or “older aluminum fuel tank” and all the other “older equipment”. If that stuff is that old and effected – it is also “too old” and should be replaced anyway! It would be safer and cheaper to just replace those old fuel lines – than to keep buying fuel filters? As far as “additives” forget it, save your money most don’t work anyway! Unless you plan on letting the fuel set for a period of time – then you should use a stabilizer in any type of gasoline or other fuel.
I don’t know where the, “Americans, who have 15% ethanol in all their gas” came from but, the U.S. does not have 15% ethanol in all their gas. It is more like one out of every eight gallons of gasoline sold in the United States contains ethanol. The most common is the E-10, which is what is being discussed here. Now along with that, the U.S. does have ethanol and gasoline blends up to E-85 or 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol, both here in Washington and throughout the country. There is also hydrous ethanol (about 95% ethanol and 5% water), which can be used as fuel in more than 90% of new vehicles. The U.S. flex-fuel vehicles can run on 0% to 85% ethanol (15% gasoline), yours too. I don’t believe the hydrous ethanol blends are publically allowed, yet?
"faze separation" of the fuel? You might want to research a little bit more, or just read the following 1995 EPA memo? I don’t know whether to yell the sky is falling, or simply state, “phase separation is and always has been a valid concern with "all" gasolines. Water in any fuel is a reason for concern but, I would be more worried about “phase separation” using pre-mixed two stroke oil than with any ethanol based fuel? Well, that is unless you are letting water in your fuel tanks? Ethanol is miscible with water and it will draw water (moisture) into the fuel – that would be more of a - phase separation = very bad! Ethanol miscible = good!
“Water can enter gasoline engines in two ways: in solution with the fuel or as a separate phase from the gasoline. Water in solution operates as no more than an inert diluent in the combustion process. Since water is a natural product of combustion, any water in solution is removed with the product water in the exhaust system. The only effect water in solution with gasoline can have on an engine is decreased fuel economy. For example, assuming a high water concentration of 0.5 volume percent, one would see a 0.5 percent decrease in fuel economy. This fuel economy decrease is too low for an engine operator to notice, since many other factors (such as ambient temperature changes, wind and road conditions, etc.) affect fuel economy to a much larger extent.”
“(At a temperature of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much longer to saturate with water.”
Did you pick-up the "two years" and the "oxgenated gasolines can hold more water" parts? I’ll leave phase separation as a valid concern and would not be calling wolf there?
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Cheers!
TheBigGuy
Well-Known Member
I rarely disagree with you Charlie, but on the big fishing forum down in the states this topic is often discussed. The blended fuels have been in use down there for a while, and it seems to be a pretty big issue with American boaters. The feedback seems pretty common that it is creating problems in marine applications. According to the forum down there marine shops have seen a huge increase in dealing with mechanical issues related to ethanol blended fuels.
On the topic of replacing older components. Some are simple to replace and others are not so easy. Say you have an older but structurally sound fiberglass boat with a built in fiberglass fuel tank. The resins can be dissolved by the ethanol and end up being burnt in your engine causing a huge engine repair bill. If the built in fiberglass fuel tank needs replacement this is likely a very large and expensive job, possibly being more expensive than the boat itself is worth. Just because a boat is older doesn't mean it should have to be sent to the scrap heap.
On the topic of 15% ethanol blends. I could be wrong but I believe most outboard manufacturers will not warranty any damage if using fuels with over 10% ethanol. I know that 15% blends are not available up here yet. However, the pressure for green alternative fuels will probably mean it's coming pretty soon.
I think the warning needs to get out to the people that own older boats so that they can take action before any major damage occurs. It is also a safety issue as a breakdown could end up happening at a very inopportune time such as when offshore in bad weather. I think this topic should be made a sticky in this section so that all boaters are aware of the potential problems they could be facing.
On the topic of replacing older components. Some are simple to replace and others are not so easy. Say you have an older but structurally sound fiberglass boat with a built in fiberglass fuel tank. The resins can be dissolved by the ethanol and end up being burnt in your engine causing a huge engine repair bill. If the built in fiberglass fuel tank needs replacement this is likely a very large and expensive job, possibly being more expensive than the boat itself is worth. Just because a boat is older doesn't mean it should have to be sent to the scrap heap.
On the topic of 15% ethanol blends. I could be wrong but I believe most outboard manufacturers will not warranty any damage if using fuels with over 10% ethanol. I know that 15% blends are not available up here yet. However, the pressure for green alternative fuels will probably mean it's coming pretty soon.
I think the warning needs to get out to the people that own older boats so that they can take action before any major damage occurs. It is also a safety issue as a breakdown could end up happening at a very inopportune time such as when offshore in bad weather. I think this topic should be made a sticky in this section so that all boaters are aware of the potential problems they could be facing.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
We are not disagreeing, just looking at from different point of views - I agree with your comments!
Yep, this topic is all over the place, including now on this forum and is kind of why I usually just avoid the topic – most don’t really know or understand and – they really need to go fishing!
I have to ask, how many people do you really personally know that has/have/had any problems with the use E-10? Very few if any and if they did, the problems will always go back to those old tanks, fuel lines, or mixing of fuels! They simply do not understand!
Yep, can’t disagree, as previously stated there “could be” an issue? You might also have a hard time finding the answer or information on the how old question - Some say prior to about 1993, some 1995, then some state 1983, then you have “before the 1980's” but they all state, “there could be” a problem! Well, I believe them, except depending on the individual manufacturer - there WILL be a problem! And, I am quite sure many of those older boats have/had or still need those fiberglass tanks replaced, does yours?
That is something to watch for sure, but just how many of those good older boats haven’t already had the tanks changed? If you do have an old fiberglass tank there is no doubt the ethanol in E-10 diffuses into the older fiberglass but, you might find this comment of interest, also - and still consider changing out those old tanks, whether you use straight gas or E-10 that is - before you blow yourself up! http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp
Switching built-in gas tanks on boats usually isn't that expensive, but it surely can be time consuming! If you want to watch while someone takes out one of those Diesel engines in most of those older forty-foot boats – you will appreciate the simplicity of changing out a gas tank? There is a reason those boats are built in various separate sections, with the hulls separating from the top decks!
Oops, I don’t think you are wrong at all, but don’t change from E-10, at least not quite yet? And remember the concern is running/burning E-10 in "marine engines”, not using those old parts already stated, needed to switched out. I do bet studies have already been done! And , I would be surprised and really doubt if there would be an issue of burning E-15? However, I would avoid E-85, until something was published verifying that one? But, if you were a manufacturer - where would you draw that warranty line?
I agree 100% there! Research has already been done if you are running with those older components, it is not a question of if, it is only a question of when. The other question why is anyone still running those “OLD” tanks and lines? They still need changed regardless of type of fuel used!
I will guarantee any problems from use of ethanol WILL be, “at a very inopportune time such as when offshore in bad weather.” That is when the fuel in the tanks gets stirred-up putting all that good stuff into your fuel lines!
There are also, a couple more real warnings that people should be aware of.
Don’t mix fuels, “The old blends of gasoline contained MTBE that when mixed with ethanol produced a black sludge that blocks filters and clogs carburetors.”
Probably should switch oil in your pre-mix to a synthetic oil, “In older two-cycle engines that use premixed fuel, the ethanol has a tendency of cleaning the oil off the cylinder walls resulting in wear and overheating.”
There is are a couple of good articles here:
http://www.gloucestertimes.com/sports/x645218902/Ethanol-Fuel-Dangers-Marine-Engines
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp
BTW… I would be complaining more about, "Ethanol producers receive $2 billion in subsidies from taxpayers”
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/07/pubcit_ethanol.html#ixzz0qC3GF4zz
And, Why aren't people talking about the BAD effects of MBTE added and used in "straight" gasoline? Almost all are drinking that - and, I personally would rather deal with and be living with ethanol than dying of the cancers MBTE creates? That contamination is a problem in both the U.S. and Canada! [:0]
http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/water.htm
TheBigGuy
Well-Known Member
As always Charlie you're a wealth of information. One thing I was still unsure about is if it is safe to mix together E0 and E10 gas. I have seen conflicting stories each time this subject has been discussed.
Luckily my boat is only five years old, and the 115 hp 4 stroke motor is a 2006 model. The 9.9 kicker is a 2005 4st, so I shouldn't have any problems there.
I also have a 25hp 4stroke that is 2 years old so no worries there.
The motor that I'm not sure about is a 15hp Honda 4 stroke that is about ten years old. I haven't used this one in a couple years, but I was considering using it as a kicker. Now I'm not sure if the fuel components are going to need to be replaced on this motor.
Luckily my boat is only five years old, and the 115 hp 4 stroke motor is a 2006 model. The 9.9 kicker is a 2005 4st, so I shouldn't have any problems there.
I also have a 25hp 4stroke that is 2 years old so no worries there.
The motor that I'm not sure about is a 15hp Honda 4 stroke that is about ten years old. I haven't used this one in a couple years, but I was considering using it as a kicker. Now I'm not sure if the fuel components are going to need to be replaced on this motor.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
"Don’t mix fuels, “The old blends of gasoline contained MTBE that when mixed with ethanol produced a black sludge that blocks filters and clogs carburetors.”" It is fine to mix any type of ethanol fuel, but I would NOT be mixing any type of MTBE with any type of ethanol!
Personally... ten years old, I would have at it and I wouldn't be worried one bit! I would be draining all that old gas out though?
TheBigGuy
Well-Known Member
Well guess what? I did swap my 10 year old Honda on as a kicker. I used it for a good part of the summer running ethanol blended fuel. This motor had never had an issue before. Last day of a trip on the north island the kicker started leaking fuel from the carb. I'm not saying the ethanol was responsible, but it does seem a little more than coincidental that a good problem free motor develops fuel leaks shortly after switching to ethanol fuels.
I'm not going to bother to repair this motor until the winter. I'll swap the 2005 9.9 Merc back as the kicker. Unfortunately that motor isn't electric start and I have to add the charge kit. Oh well it's always something I guess. At least the issue cropped up on the last day of the trip, and luckily we weren't off shore.
I'm not going to bother to repair this motor until the winter. I'll swap the 2005 9.9 Merc back as the kicker. Unfortunately that motor isn't electric start and I have to add the charge kit. Oh well it's always something I guess. At least the issue cropped up on the last day of the trip, and luckily we weren't off shore.
Using an older mercruiser 140 horse, I have had water issues. Good filters and marine fuel stabiliser has solved the issue for me. E-10 can be an issue for older systems but does not have to be a major issue with a little preventative maintenance/foresight. At least, that has been my experience.
Too much water, too little time
Too much water, too little time
Halilogger
Active Member
From what I've read, that is just as big of an issue, ( water ) the ethanol absorbs water and if it sits for a while the ethanol will separate from the gasoline causing your motor to run really lean. This will lead to serious motor issues, so just because you have a newer motor does not mean you won't have complications. I don't know if normal stabilizer will stop the separation, if sitting for a prolonged period.
TheBigGuy
Well-Known Member
Hi Hali
I don't believe the regular fuel stabilizer will prevent phase separation. One of the major components in regular stabilizer is ethanol, and the last thing you need is to be adding more. I have the marine Stabil, but at $40 I will mostly be using it in the winter where the fuel may sit for long periods of time.
Time
Well-Known Member
Here is a link to the Stabil site:
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/default.aspx
Also a link to an article from Practical Sailor mag, 2008.
http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/Ethanol 411/Gold Eagle eGas Article PSL.pdf
Blue Stabil seems to be the best, and probably most widely available, choice.
I'm with Halilogger, I don't think it is that big an issue, but I do think adding the Stabil, or equivalent, is, if not absolutely necessary, a very good idea.
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/default.aspx
Also a link to an article from Practical Sailor mag, 2008.
http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/Ethanol 411/Gold Eagle eGas Article PSL.pdf
Blue Stabil seems to be the best, and probably most widely available, choice.
I'm with Halilogger, I don't think it is that big an issue, but I do think adding the Stabil, or equivalent, is, if not absolutely necessary, a very good idea.
