Electoral Reform Referendum

How will you vote?

  • I am in favour

    Votes: 30 34.5%
  • I am against it

    Votes: 56 64.4%
  • I don't plan to vote

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    87
Actually if you read the string you’d see that my comment about Clarke and Campbell was a response to someone saying they did support PR! I questioned why this meant so much to them.


My apologies. I guess I read it too early this morning and misunderstood what you were trying to say. Good think I wasn’t arguing hahaha

Coincidentally I recently saw a tv ad where Christie now flip flopped and is against PR.
 
Not arguing and no disrespect intended. Ziggy wondered. I answered. Google is your friend, lol All you have to do is search. I will say that my decision to support PR comes not from who I want in, it’s more to prevent a slim majority thinking they have a mandate. If I learned anything under Christie’s watch it’s that.
You really think it was worse under Christies watch than now????? As an avid outdoorsman I am amazed you feel that way. I see it different, less hunting opportunities, less fishing and maybe none soon if current Gov keep signing agreements. Neither Gov did or has done anything to increase fish and wildlife. Do you feel the least bit betrayed now, site C going, fish farms still producing, KM a go at a huge federal cost to all Canadians, no G bear season, back door land deals and Vic still highest gas prices in NA.

Not even going to speak about BC's current position both Federally and on a world scale. I do think these scenarios would become the norm with the "proposed" Pr systems. Also the ones proposed; are they the same as on the list of other countries provided? Why not use international verified data and present the best system with details? Smells "fishy" to me. We will all know in a few weeks. I am escaping to the woods till then, have a new creed to bloody.

HM
 
On Electoral Boundaries, the current ones are defined by the Electoral Boundary Commission which is an independent body that redefines them when required. They will be the ones to set up the new boundaries, not the NDP or Greens. Also with PR, the exact boundaries will not have a large impact on the election because the total number of seats given to a party is based on the popular vote overall, rather than from the distortions of local boundaries.



This depends on the system chosen. For DMP, there will be a fixed number approx the same as now. For MMP and RUP, this will change from election to election depending on the top up required just like in other MMP jurisdictions. There is nothing sinister here. Also, the number of MLAs will also not have a large impact on which party has control as the results will still be proportional.



For DMP and STV, there is no separate list. For MMP there would be a list that is closed or open. Closed just means that when a party needs more MLA's to get a proportional result, Elections BC will pick from a public party list. Open means that you can actually vote directly for members on that list. What would be your preference? The choice is not partisan. Regardless, the result would still be proportional.



Most details actually have been worked out here or in other countries. The actual implementation will still result in a proportional distribution of MLAs based on the popular vote. There is not a whole lot here for a partisan government to tilt in their favour.

I really don't think these details are a good reason to vote against. I'm guessing that people fixed on the NO side would still be opposed even if these details were specified more clearly.

From talking to people at work and friends the uncertainty of the details is why most are voting against PR.
 
This "PR utopia" is not some far off fantasy land dream. It is a current reality of over 90 countries, including most of the well-functioning, highly-democratic, and yes, economically successful countries in the world. It has been in place for over 100 years in many countries. It is a very well tested and successful system as a whole. Somehow people have been led to believe that PR is a completely new system that is totally untested. This is a lie.

With regard to your "good or bad, at least it keeps thing moving" this is where I have the biggest beef with First Past the Post. Policy Lurch! It is wasteful and expensive and divisive to have the Party X come into power (with a false majority often) and put in place their pet projects while in office only to have Party Y come in 4 years later and rip out everything Party X just did and replace it with their own partisan pet projects, only for the cycle to continue. For those who claim to be fiscally conservative this is the most wasteful use of taxpayer funds! ... and all in the sake of 'keeping things moving'?. Not a good reason IMO. Policy lurch is not only extremely costly but it also creates an unstable political climate that is harmful to small business as each 'side' is constantly changes the rules of the game.

What we've seen in most PR countries is more 'consensus' legislation that last longer b/c it better represents the majority (created by coalition government representing 60-80% of public often) vs. having legislation created by a government with a false majority represented by 38% of the public.

I honestly dont understand the naivete of the pro PR people - human nature being what it is, there is a reason why "management by committee" is a universally accepted term for "fuster cluck" - it's the classic case of theory vs reality - in theory communism is great, reality - hmm, not so much.
Lets say the PR utopia comes true - now around this big boardroom table you have 34 NDP, 30 Liberal, 10 greens 3 Flat Earthers, 2 Elvis is Alive and 1 Sport Fishing BC members - do you really think anything meaningful is going to get done in a timely manor??? And even if a decision does get made - it's still guaranteed to **** off the "majority" of people - so where has your "PR" improved things - most of the time "your" opinion is ignored and you feel your vote has been wasted - deja vue all over again.
There is a reason why any scenario where decisions need to be made you need one final arbitrator - good or bad, at least it keeps things moving. I actually think it averages out in the end - Liberals get in power, do 7 good deeds, 3 bad - next time NDP come in, reverse 2 of those, do 5 good of their own, 4 bad - 10yr average we are still better off.
 
... Oh and I see the Leaders are going to debate it after the voting has started! Priceless.

Agree with all you said.

In the debate situation, Horgan initially said he would do it well before the voting started, then flip-flopped and said No Damn Way. Now, for whatever reason (and I am certain there are some) he has once again flip-flopped and decided to engage in the debate once again. Timing was at his direction due to the waffling and flip-flopping. Not too out of character for the party he leads IMHO.

Cheers,
Nog
 
It is a current reality of over 90 countries
Hmmm you really sure about those numbers? And wouldnt that also depend on which of the only 3 options people chose - as according to the Govt's own propaganda - Option 1 DMP "currently not in used" ; Option 3 RUP "not used anywhere as a single system"
 
How would a BC government work under proportional representation? The province’s electoral reform ballots have been mailed out, and Sonia Deol talks to Global BC’s Keith Baldrey and Richard Zussman, with special guests Bowinn Ma and Bill Tielman.
Video from Global TV
https://globalnews.ca/video/4626094/focus-bc-november-2
 
You really think it was worse under Christies watch than now????? As an avid outdoorsman I am amazed you feel that way. I see it different, less hunting opportunities, less fishing and maybe none soon if current Gov keep signing agreements. Neither Gov did or has done anything to increase fish and wildlife. Do you feel the least bit betrayed now, site C going, fish farms still producing, KM a go at a huge federal cost to all Canadians, no G bear season, back door land deals and Vic still highest gas prices in NA.

Not even going to speak about BC's current position both Federally and on a world scale. I do think these scenarios would become the norm with the "proposed" Pr systems. Also the ones proposed; are they the same as on the list of other countries provided? Why not use international verified data and present the best system with details? Smells "fishy" to me. We will all know in a few weeks. I am escaping to the woods till then, have a new creed to bloody.

HM

Hmmm I think you might be confusing fed and provincial govt. Unless provincial fisheries is suddenly running the show?


And yes I do feel let down by the current govt. but not nearly as much as I was by the previous govt. I voted liberal my entire life but at the end of Christie’s run they were so far gone from the party I supported that I changed party allegiance. More to keep the libs out than get the NDP in. It would take a pretty big shift in the liberal party platform to get me to change my mind again. That said, I quit hunting (still target shoot though)when my daughter was born but do fish and actually live on the very edge of the wilderness so yeah, I’m just as much of an outdoorsman as you. Maybe more. If you live in a city then definitely more as I’m in the bush EVERY day 365 days a year. And as an outdoorsman that actually lives there I realize the need to protect our environment and all the tough decisions that entails. So yes, in my opinion with Christie and her rubber stamp gone BC is much better off.

I just did a little research and unemployment rate in BC is at a record low of 4.6 percent under the leadership of Horgan and his NDP. That’s only after 1 year in office.

16 years of liberal leadership and when they were voted out the unemployment rate was at 6.9 percent.

It’s all there in black and white and the employment numbers alone say yes indeed BC is better off without Christie in charge.
 
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Yep. And LOTS of people believed Horgan and Weaver when they INSISTED publicly they would NEVER manage our wildlife based on Emotion too.
Look where that got us.
They have well proven they cannot be trusted.
When the case is such that the outcome will effect their very political survival, methinks even more caution should be expressed in that regard...

Just Saying...
Nog
 
Got a list of how many of them were given a follow up referendum on it? Bet Germany who adopted in 1918 might have had second thoughts around 1945.
You can still fool all of the people some of the time no matter what system. And some of the people still believe FPTP is a good system.
 
You can still fool all of the people some of the time no matter what system. And some of the people still believe FPTP is a good system.
Well let’s see if third time is finally lucky for PR?
 
Well I guess once again if they had taken the time to come up with a detailed plan, there would be no reason to question how it would work, the way MLA’s would be chosen would have been laid out.Instead we have two politicians saying “Trust Me”, one of which opposed having a referendum (Weaver), and wanted PR legislated without going to the public! This once again shows the referendum is premature, not well thought out and vague.
 
Well I guess once again if they had taken the time to come up with a detailed plan, there would be no reason to question how it would work, the way MLA’s would be chosen would have been laid out.Instead we have two politicians saying “Trust Me”, one of which opposed having a referendum (Weaver), and wanted PR legislated without going to the public! This once again shows the referendum is premature, not well thought out and vague.

You can find details of how and why in this document.
https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/upload...d-Recommendations-of-the-Attorney-General.pdf

All of the details on most things about this referendum can be found here as they should.
https://elections.bc.ca/referendum

For those not wanting to dig through all this I'll just post a quote from the PDF.

Matters for Post-Referendum Decision -page 59
The voting systems recommended for inclusion on the referendum ballot are described in sufficient detail in this report for voters to understand how they would operate if adopted. However, there are a number of design and implementation details that should be left to post-referendum work. Although they are largely technical, these design details can have a significant effect on how a voting system works in practice, and should be decided by a transparent multiparty process. The number and complexity of those details depends upon the specific voting system, and the appendices describing the proposed PR voting systems also include a list of design details that would require decision post-referendum. Whether there should be any increase in the overall number of MLAs in the province is one example. Another is the issue under MMP (should it be adopted) respecting the design of the ballot for the List PR seats. Lists may be “closed”, “open” or “flexible”. For closed lists, voters endorse a party and its candidates as listed in the order put forward by that party. For open lists, voters may choose the candidates they prefer from amongst the candidates put forward by a party, or there may also be an option to endorse the party’s list as presented. For flexible lists, voters may choose individual candidates they prefer or they may vote to endorse the party’s list. While the feedback from the public engagement indicated more support for either “open” or “flexible” lists because they provide voters with more choice, the engagement also indicated support for simple ballots, which a “closed” list would provide. This is an issue that would benefit from further debate and discussion.

A number of respondents to the public engagement suggested that if the result of the referendum is in favour of adopting a proportional representation system, it is important that the details respecting that system be designed and implemented in a manner that is fair and transparent. However, as noted above, a lengthy post-referendum process involving an independent advisory body of experts as well as a cross-section of citizens to decide upon all design details creates a risk that the statutory deadline for implementing a new voting system would not be met. The best method for providing transparent public input on design and implementation while ensuring a reasonable timeframe for completion would be an all-party committee of the Legislative Assembly. The committee should receive input from independent experts, election administrators and the public on the remaining design details of the voting system to be adopted and issue a report with recommendations. None of the political parties represented in the Legislative Assembly under its current composition would have a majority on such a committee, and therefore the committee’s recommendations would require thoughtful compromise among all the parties.

Beyond the design decisions for the committee and the Legislature, if any of the proposed PR systems are adopted, an independent Electoral Boundaries Commission would be required to recommend new electoral boundaries for the province. The scope of the commission’s task would vary depending upon the voting system and the degree of direction given it by the Legislature: for example, whether it is required to propose a specific number of electoral districts/MLAs for the province or whether it is given a numerical range to work within, and whether it would be required to delineate specific regions of the province
 
Here is what Vancouver Island looks like under the two different systems.
DqyLmfjU4AA-_Vk.jpg
 
You can find details of how and why in this document.
https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/upload...d-Recommendations-of-the-Attorney-General.pdf

All of the details on most things about this referendum can be found here as they should.
https://elections.bc.ca/referendum

For those not wanting to dig through all this I'll just post a quote from the PDF.

Matters for Post-Referendum Decision -page 59
The voting systems recommended for inclusion on the referendum ballot are described in sufficient detail in this report for voters to understand how they would operate if adopted. However, there are a number of design and implementation details that should be left to post-referendum work. Although they are largely technical, these design details can have a significant effect on how a voting system works in practice, and should be decided by a transparent multiparty process. The number and complexity of those details depends upon the specific voting system, and the appendices describing the proposed PR voting systems also include a list of design details that would require decision post-referendum. Whether there should be any increase in the overall number of MLAs in the province is one example. Another is the issue under MMP (should it be adopted) respecting the design of the ballot for the List PR seats. Lists may be “closed”, “open” or “flexible”. For closed lists, voters endorse a party and its candidates as listed in the order put forward by that party. For open lists, voters may choose the candidates they prefer from amongst the candidates put forward by a party, or there may also be an option to endorse the party’s list as presented. For flexible lists, voters may choose individual candidates they prefer or they may vote to endorse the party’s list. While the feedback from the public engagement indicated more support for either “open” or “flexible” lists because they provide voters with more choice, the engagement also indicated support for simple ballots, which a “closed” list would provide. This is an issue that would benefit from further debate and discussion.

A number of respondents to the public engagement suggested that if the result of the referendum is in favour of adopting a proportional representation system, it is important that the details respecting that system be designed and implemented in a manner that is fair and transparent. However, as noted above, a lengthy post-referendum process involving an independent advisory body of experts as well as a cross-section of citizens to decide upon all design details creates a risk that the statutory deadline for implementing a new voting system would not be met. The best method for providing transparent public input on design and implementation while ensuring a reasonable timeframe for completion would be an all-party committee of the Legislative Assembly. The committee should receive input from independent experts, election administrators and the public on the remaining design details of the voting system to be adopted and issue a report with recommendations. None of the political parties represented in the Legislative Assembly under its current composition would have a majority on such a committee, and therefore the committee’s recommendations would require thoughtful compromise among all the parties.

Beyond the design decisions for the committee and the Legislature, if any of the proposed PR systems are adopted, an independent Electoral Boundaries Commission would be required to recommend new electoral boundaries for the province. The scope of the commission’s task would vary depending upon the voting system and the degree of direction given it by the Legislature: for example, whether it is required to propose a specific number of electoral districts/MLAs for the province or whether it is given a numerical range to work within, and whether it would be required to delineate specific regions of the province
For one thing I firmly believe the choice of open,closed or flexible list must be decided by the voters of BC. I feel we are abdicating too much power to politicians and their so called experts. While it sounds great to form all party committees to decide these things after the fact, what is the Public’s recourse if for example in the interest of “simple ballots” , a closed list is chosen even though the Public has indicated little support for that. This and other issues needed to be decided prior to the referendum as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps if PR is accepted, another referendum needs to be held once the government gets it ..... together and knows some of these details.
 
For one thing I firmly believe the choice of open,closed or flexible list must be decided by the voters of BC. I feel we are abdicating too much power to politicians and their so called experts. While it sounds great to form all party committees to decide these things after the fact, what is the Public’s recourse if for example in the interest of “simple ballots” , a closed list is chosen even though the Public has indicated little support for that. This and other issues needed to be decided prior to the referendum as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps if PR is accepted, another referendum needs to be held once the government gets it ..... together and knows some of these details.

Yes I understand your misgivings and I fully support that we need an open list system. Currently the leaders of the NDP and Green parties have publicly said that they too support open lists. I have not heard from the leader of the Liberal Party on this issue. I suspect since he is on the NO side that he will not say one way or another.

One should also be concerned of who picks these candidates that will be running for election. These matters are usually left up to the different parties. The usual way it occurs is that a local riding organizes a vote from names of people brought forward. Depending on the party they can be per-screened or not. The final say can sometimes be left up to the leader of the party. What can also happen is the party leader can just tell the party that this is the guy and that's it. One should be very wary if a leader does that. Lots of gray area on how that works depending on the party. I for one would like all this cleaned up and a standard way of doing things that all parties adhere to.

There is also thing called Tweedism that we need to protect against. "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating." Boss Tweed ......
 
Here is some information from my neighbor to ponder for those uncertain as to whether we should give PR a chance.



From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation


Countries with PR do not seem to have more elections.


upload_2018-11-5_14-36-54.png





While it “proves” nothing, of the top 10 happiest countries in the world, 9 of them use proportional representation. Canada is #7 while the US and Britain which are the only other major first world western democracies rank #18 and #19 respectively. With Norway and Finland being at the top, we can assume that weather is not a main driver of citizen happiness, while it is likely reasonable to assume that satisfaction and trust of ones government and democracy would be a significant factor in the level of contentment of a countries population.


When there is a guarantee that the voters will get a chance to return to the old system via referendum after 2 election cycles what have we got to loose by taking a chance on modernizing our democratic system which is way over 100 years old. Maybe we will get happier still? Especially when you consider how many of us will be all toked up as well!
 
Here is some information from my neighbor to ponder for those uncertain as to whether we should give PR a chance.



From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation


Countries with PR do not seem to have more elections.




While it “proves” nothing, of the top 10 happiest countries in the world, 9 of them use proportional representation. Canada is #7 while the US and Britain which are the only other major first world western democracies rank #18 and #19 respectively. With Norway and Finland being at the top, we can assume that weather is not a main driver of citizen happiness, while it is likely reasonable to assume that satisfaction and trust of ones government and democracy would be a significant factor in the level of contentment of a countries population.


When there is a guarantee that the voters will get a chance to return to the old system via referendum after 2 election cycles what have we got to loose by taking a chance on modernizing our democratic system which is way over 100 years old. Maybe we will get happier still? Especially when you consider how many of us will be all toked up as well!


It's interesting that many of the Countries on the PR list are also on the following list:

Countries by Highest Income Tax Rate
Rank Country Average Income Tax Rate
1 Belgium 40.7
2 Germany 39.7
3 Denmark 36.2
4 Hungary 33.5
5 Slovenia 33.4
6 Austria 31.9
7 Italy 31.1
8 Luxembourg 31
9 Finland 30.8
10 Netherlands 30.4
11 Iceland 29.2
12 France 29.1
13 Norway 27.9
14 Portugal 27.6
15 Turkey 27.3
16 United States 26
17 Greece 25.4
18 Poland 25
19 Australia 24.3
20 Czechia 23.6
21 United Kingdom 23.6
22 Slovakia 23.2
23 Canada 23.1
24 Japan 22.2
25 Spain 21.4

Source: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-taxes-in-the-world.html
 
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