Do Salmon Hatcheries Work?

[fish4all]

It was a link sent to me by a subscriber to fishnet. I will try to find it again but my understanding is that all DFO grants are now published. I'm sure if you have the time it is somewhere on the DFO website. I tried to call the 1 800 number for a week straight and never got an answer. I was hoping to get some answers as many of the grants had the same note beside it.

just found the link.
I believe I only added up the pacific coast numbers not all of canada.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/GCSC/reports_e.asp

these grants all are defined as:

Contributions to support increased Native participation in commercial fisheries, cooperative fisheries management arrangements and consultations respecting Aboriginal fisheries agreements

I wonder if Canadians will ever know the true cost of land claims or are we going to continue to be mushrooms[B)]

 

[scott craven]

That is pathetic, there are millions of dollars being handed away for
what ???
To make it easier for one user group to eliminate more fish ! [xx(]

 

[fish4all]

quote:Originally posted by r.s craven

That is pathetic, there are millions of dollars being handed away for
what ???
To make it easier for one user group to eliminate more fish ! [xx(]

careful on that one. the sfab asked ottawa and the bc government for 28 million to buy up halibut quota for us...

Again my point is not to focus on the ones getting the money, the focus needs to be on those writing the check.

 

[richmake]

I for one think that bullcrap is on the write track for the most part.
I think that exposing the government hand outs such as below
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/GCSC/reports_e.asp
is one word...awesome.
Most of the money goes to numbered companies and they in turn lease out there own piece of the pie quota.
It's just away to allow one user group to have more control of what they think</u> they are entitled too.
As far as the government buying back quota for recreational purposes...here's what I think.
The government invests 28 million into buying back halibut quota for the rec. sector from the commercial boy's. By the way the commercial boy's never paid a dime for any of the quota in the first place and the ones that bought quota after they fact for an inflated price...boo hoo.
For the governments investment they get in return increased tourism and tax dollars poured back into the economy, among other things...the spin off is huge.
Let me ask all of you this.
With all the tax payers grants handed out to the first nations policy....how much of that actually will benefit the future of fishing in this province...or will actually add to the general revenue for all Canadians.
Do you honestly think that our children will ever see any of the benefits of handing out these grants.....come on, I for one really know what's going on and it's been going on for years.
Now with all that I've said and some of you will not like it...I'm not suprised but at least I'm willing to say it like it is and the grants we've posted are public record.
I honestly have to say that the first nations are only doing what the system has allowed them to do...who's really the issue I ask?

www.coastwidesportsfishing.com

 

[Cuba Libre]

Agreed..[V]




20ft Alumaweld Intruder

 

[fish4all]

quote:Most of the money goes to numbered companies and they in turn lease out there own piece of the pie quota.

can you elaborate on this one... are you saying that these companies are numbered companies that lease hali quota back??

sorry just a little confused.

 

[The Fish Assassin]

quote:With all the tax payers grants handed out to the first nations policy....how much of that actually will benefit the future of fishing in this province...or will actually add to the general revenue for all Canadians.
Do you honestly think that our children will ever see any of the benefits of handing out these grants.....come on, I for one really know what's going on and it's been going on for years.
Now with all that I've said and some of you will not like it...I'm not suprised but at least I'm willing to say it like it is and the grants we've posted are public record.
I honestly have to say that the first nations are only doing what the system has allowed them to do...who's really the issue I ask?

Which system are you refering to? The Supreme Court of Canada? If you don't like it go back to the country you came from. Too many people overlook the debt owed to First Nations. At least the highest Court of this Country doesn't!

Take only what you need.

 

[richmake]

quote:Originally posted by The Fish Assassin

quote:With all the tax payers grants handed out to the first nations policy....how much of that actually will benefit the future of fishing in this province...or will actually add to the general revenue for all Canadians.
Do you honestly think that our children will ever see any of the benefits of handing out these grants.....come on, I for one really know what's going on and it's been going on for years.
Now with all that I've said and some of you will not like it...I'm not suprised but at least I'm willing to say it like it is and the grants we've posted are public record.
I honestly have to say that the first nations are only doing what the system has allowed them to do...who's really the issue I ask?

Which system are you refering to? The Supreme Court of Canada? If you don't like it go back to the country you came from. Too many people overlook the debt owed to First Nations. At least the highest Court of this Country doesn't!

Take only what you need.

Believe me...what you say has no bearing on this site...
you once made a statement below

The Fish Assassin
Junior Member
Canada
128 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2008 : 21:27:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm thats too bad, i guess i should go hali fishing.

Take only what you need.


I for one took this satement as an insult to all of use...basically saying that it doesn't matter what happens with the regulations...you personally will be able to fish anyway's...
Why be on here when none of what we say is gonna matter to you anyway's.
Is it just to antagonize all of us that believe in changing the system for the better...for all of us!
You obviously believe in Canada not being as one but want seperate rights for seperate individuals no matter what cost...

Well you've got the right user name....The Fish Assassin...perfect!

And again...why am I so often defending myself or comments against guy's that constantly hide behind their username...
If you have something to say that's argumentative...let everybody know who you are....then the fingers wouldn't always type first!
No web address or statement of who they are....figures.


www.coastwidesportsfishing.com

 

[The Fish Assassin]

Heh, sry Rich I never noticed your response.

So If I was to tell you that I ran into a school of 40+ pound spring salmon, got what I needed for the year, and told you where they were, you wouldn't accept the advice? I always thought that this site was for shareing information to help each other fish. Excuuuuussse me if somone beaks off and blames First Nations for this and that.. I am not one to sit by and let them continue to rape my people on this site without defending them. What my personal rights are shouldn't affect the knowlegde that is shared here. If you think it should then your just a perfect example of why I should speak up. If my rights offend you.. then grow up. Take it up with Stephan Harper.. oh NVM.. Try The Supreme Court! I won't surrender them.[}]

I doubt I will go Hali fishing while you can't it is a non starter time of the year. If the opportunity presents itself in the future that the commercials and sporties have filled their quotas how could you expect me not to? When I don't have my fish yet? Should I sit back and not fish just because you've already caught yours? lmao.. that sounds good to me...lol

Take only what you need.

 

[Charlie]

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE FISH!

Do what you can to save them!

 

[Nimo]

For starters, I am living in the country that I came from and that my forefathers fought for. I am home and we are ALL fortunate to call this our home.

I wonder what this country would look like if it wasn't settled in the way that it was and governed by the people that govern it. Who would own Canada if not for our immigration? USA? Japan? France? Maybe an extention of Russia and obliterated by now? Don't think for a second that the picture would look the same as it did 150 years ago, or any better today, without our immigration. In fact, it's quite likely that the entire world would be a much different place without Canada's historical influence as governed by our forefathers. Now there's a debt.

As for the 28 million, it has no business coming from the fisheries' coffers and this should be challenged; however, the FN bands and people do not live in an economic vaccuum. All that consultation and training etc requires hotels, motels, fuel, vehicles, boats, taxis, food, etc etc; oh yes, and lawyers, accountants, and consultants. The funds are not being stuffed into mattresses.

It's interesting that the amounts are published as it really is such a drop in the bucket. Maybe it's just another way to keep us all at odds while DFO and big business continue plundering the resource.

Every dollar "handed out" goes right into our economy and benefits all locals as it spins something like 95 times in the economy (like peeling an apple down to the core) before it ends up almost dollar for dollar back in the government coffers - as tax money to be diverted elsewhere.

Back to hatcheries:

If we allow additional license fees to go on our licenses it will simply become another cash grab and of little benefit to the fish. However, we are able to direct as much money as we want to into hatcheries and habitat restoration through charitable donations. Donate $100 to the cause of our choice every year on top of our license fee and get back roughly $20 - $30 in tax credits. Toss that back in and get another $10 back. By the time that rotation ends we can put roughly $140 into the hatchery and habitat system for every $100 out of our pockets. We can force the government to pay almost as much as we want directly towards hatcheries.

Thinking of Jordon River, how bad off is that river and what might it take to clean it up and get a decent run happening? If it's dead, why not clean it up, restore the beds and habitat, put a decent hatchery on it, and restore the runs? That entire area has so much to offer and would benefit all of us (or at least me.)

 

[Little Hawk]

Howdy,

Welcome to the forum Bullcrap.

This might be construed as a little off-topic but - what the hell - things seemed to have digressed sufficiently already, so I'm gonna' dive-in...

As my involvement in the WSA has evolved around the impacts of the net-pen business on our Wild Pacific Salmon, I have tried to remain unbiased and work hard at keeping the welfare of 'the wild fish' at the forefront of it all. Sometimes my mouth has gotten' the better of me - as many here on this forum can attest - and I've been kicked by a few and deservedly so. The point is, regardless that I am a sportfisherman first and foremost, I have come to enjoy some advantage being involved in this great-fight to save Pacific Salmon from imminent extinction - at the hands of our inept DFO and the aquaculture business - without prejudice towards any other user groups of the resource. I learned long ago that regardless we 'sporties' contribute by far the greatest economic 'punch-for-the-buck' benefit to the Provincial economy as users of about 10% of the resource, yet I don't see that statistic as a license to bash Natives' or the Commercials. We all take what we can get or need for a reason (food/sport/earn a living) and it's useless to fight with each other; the people we should be fighting are in Ottawa and in the Legislature here in Victoria!

It boils down to two things: Management & Enforcement.

With competent fisheries management we can learn and understand what's happening to our fish and habitat and we can invest resources in rehabilitation (this can and should include hatcheries to keep all fishermen afloat during what will surely be a long-recovery period) and fish-habitat restoration initiatives to make sure there are 'wild' fish around for our kids and grandchildren. With incompetent/unqualified fisheries managers appointed to oversee the resource (like our newly appointed Minister?) we all end up in trouble. Money changes hands behind closed doors and meanwhile, aquaculture continues to grow wreaking an ecological-holocaust on wild-salmon and our waterways, federal funding for important hatchery & enhancement projects drys up, fish are disappearing, user groups fight over the scraps while pointing fingers at each other... and nothing gets done.

If enforcement was applied equally across the board to all user groups, and yes, I'm referring to the Native's here, we would all live in a much more peaceful place right now. I'm certain the majority of First Nations people are honest and honor Treaty fishing rights, but when some don't and it involves leaving illegal nets strung across rivers or streams, the consequences can prove suddenly catastrophic with entire year-class runs suddenly disappearing. Us 'sporties' and the commercials get wind of these activities and we FREAK! By no means am I inferring that Natives are the only ones to break fishing laws - sporties and commercial's do as well - but because the Native fishery is terminal (in a river) the salmon don't stand a chance. I talked to an ex-RCMP friend last year about a helicopter trip he went on up the Fraser many moons ago to remove illegal nets (with a grappling-hook) from the river. He told me that in one fight they removed dozens of them but had to leave hundreds more upstream because of running out of fuel.

CONSERVATION CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF WE ARE ALL PARTICIPATING!

Sorry to get off topic but after going over the list (on the DFO disbursements link that Bullcrap posted) I was amazed at how much $$$ has been passed on to our Native brothers and what exactly it was used for. Fishfarming? Hatchery programs? Fleet reduction? Extinct-fish compensation? What?

I can only sigh and wonder when, if ever, the DFO will wake up and notice that the extinction of Pacific salmon is right there on the horizon... right there, staring them in the face.

Terry Anderson

Wild Salmon Alliance

 

[searun]

Lots of great comments on this topic. I think what is missing is we have focused on single dimension thinking when approaching the issue of how to better manage salmon recovery. By that I mean we tend to place all our eggs into the flavor of the week recovery strategy rather than taking a more holistic approach. None of these single initiatives (hatchery/habitat/enforcement etc) can work, because they all fail to address how ecosystems work - they are diverse and hugely complex systems and relationships. What we should be lobbying decision makers is for more integrated planning and application of our resources in more strategic ways. What I mean by strategic is we tend to use a shot gun and run approach.

For example, in the 1970's we put most of our effort into massive hatchery and spawning channel initiatives - which worked for a time. Then we shifted to "wild only" and focus on repairing habitat in more recent times. What is actually needed is strategically placed multi-modalities where we hit a river system hard with hatchery, habitat, stream fertilization and appropriate allocation enforcement.

The other thing to bear in mind is we should also be focusing on all species in a river system, not just the ones we like to catch. Pinks for example are the river fertilizers and chum are the spawning bed cleaners etc. They all have a vital role in an integrated ecosystem, and that's the kind of thinking and resource management that has been missing and is taking us to a similar conclusion as was reached on the East Coast of Canada by completely flawed management practice.

 

[fish4all]

Terry;

I agree 100% with every word you wrote. Excellent post.

Cheers

 

[searun]

Thanks, I will be attending the Steelhead Caucus Workshop next weekend and that is exactly the message we will be taking forward to the Gov't MLA's and Ministy staff. What we need is a ground swell of voices asking both levels of Gov't to step up to this shift in approach.