Do I need it ... No, but I want it. Rivian Truck
- Thread starter GLG
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
seem like a different story https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/electric-vehicle-battery-replacement-1.7066842
Irishwolf
Crew Member
kaelc
Well-Known Member
It's just one or two parts for larger engines he's complaining about, I don't believe all Evinrude parts will go out of stock. I was just trying to prove a point, lots of gas engines have parts supply problems and get written off.anyone want to by an awesome running 30hp etec with low hours?
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
Read that solid state and sulphur batteries, two techs that could come out in the next 5-10 years will double the energy density of batteries.
Effectively doubling the range of EVs
Effectively doubling the range of EVs
Irishwolf
Crew Member
Yeah Im not worried about it actually, I was jesting a bit. I’ll run it for as long as I can. Never had an issue with it. And I’m not hard on it so hopefully she’s good. I really like the engine. Shame they closed up shop. But these things happen.
Alex_c
Well-Known Member
Crappy situation, but probably should have talked to the utility or an electrician and done his due diligence first
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
the transformer is a kick to the teeth, everything else is expected imo
sly_karma
Crew Member
I was facing this if I upgraded my service to 200A. Digging up or cutting driveway and retaining walls to place a larger conduit was bad enough, but the city utility said I'd also have to fund a larger transformer. Estimate for the package was north of 20K.
I opted to free up a 40A circuit by switching to a gas kitchen range, because I like the fast heating and precise control of gas. The other option would have been to install a circuit sharing device on my clothes dryer circuit; ie, EV charging is suspended when the dryer is in use.
I know Ford includes the 80A unit with extended range Lightnings, but 40A is plenty for most people. 20-90% takes 10-ish hours; ie, overnight. If you do find yourself getting home from a road trip and having to head right back out there again, you'd hit a fast charger anyway.
As others have said, old mate should have done his homework before purchase.
I opted to free up a 40A circuit by switching to a gas kitchen range, because I like the fast heating and precise control of gas. The other option would have been to install a circuit sharing device on my clothes dryer circuit; ie, EV charging is suspended when the dryer is in use.
I know Ford includes the 80A unit with extended range Lightnings, but 40A is plenty for most people. 20-90% takes 10-ish hours; ie, overnight. If you do find yourself getting home from a road trip and having to head right back out there again, you'd hit a fast charger anyway.
As others have said, old mate should have done his homework before purchase.
sly_karma
Crew Member
This is what can happen when dealing with utilities under their system in BC though. It's like buried landmines, you have no idea a transformer is maxed out until you apply for service upgrade, and then... kaboom. A bill of 10-15K.
Moral of the story is whenever you're contemplating a project that might require a larger service, say a shop big enough for working on boats, immediately go to your utility and apply for an upgrade so you can let them uncover any nearby landmines, as it were. You'll need to engage an electrical contractor because the utilities don't like talking to civilians.
Utility and electrician look at the site and talk a bit, and eventually you'll receive a design for your contemplated service upgrade, along with a quote for the utility's part of the work. This is where the landmines are exposed, you may decide there and then that the cost is prohobitive and the project needs a rethink. Or you move on, have the electrician price their work (underground conduits, meter base, revisions to the home's panel) and a trenching estimate if there's to be any underground work.
Finally, after a period of months, you'll have an understanding of the cost to upgrade so your future shop can have its own 100A subpanel, or maybe a hot tub and EV charger for the house. Now you can move forward with planning and design of the project itself, knowing you have a reasonable understanding of electrical service costs. Better to do this early rather than paying for a bunch of design and then having to walk away from the whole thing because electrical blows the budget.
Max123
Well-Known Member
The CBC article doesn't really frame the guys expectation within the larger context of what is considered 'normal' - and it comes off like some hard luck story. The guy wants to install an 80amp charger, which is basically the top end of 'level 2 charging' and is a close to a fast charger as you can get in your own house. Its double the standard size and for context - its basically the electrical load of adding a 2nd house running full tilt. If he wanted to add a 2nd house to the property, I don't think any of us would have a problem with him shouldering the cost of a service upgrade.
Effectively what everyone wants to do is have access to peak power whenever they want. The utility infrastructure isn't built for that, and frankly its totally unnecessary. By using load management, you can easily work within the available power supply and do everything you want. Do you really need to have your electric dryer running, EV charging, and heat blasting, cooking a turkey in your electric oven and hot tub running all at the same time? If you do - pay for the electrical upgrade. Alternatively, load management electrical panels can allow you to shuffle the loads around so that you can still have all these circuits - but stick with your standard electrical service, and just shuffle the timing of the loads. You can buy electrical panels with built in load management circuits, or they make simpler external load management splitter boxes that switch between the EV circuit and your dryer circuit, so you don't need to change the panel. Natural gas stove frees up a circuit, likewise - switching to a heat pump dryer or water heater may free up a circuit as well. Next time you go replace your heat pump, look up low temp options (that work fine in the lower mainland, but probably not great for interior), and ditch that 10kw electric coil, boom - another circuit. Lots of options to reduce your electrical load.
I can understand why someone would instinctively say - "sure, give me the charger that will do it in 4 hrs" versus the standard 8-10hr option, but once you've thought about it for a minute and realize the extent of the upgrades required it starts to make a lot less sense. Home chargers are for charging overnight - which works perfectly well on a 40amp charger. Likewise, you have minimal other electrical loads overnight - perfect for a load management solution.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
Don't a lot of new homes come with a 200 amp service?
Hooking up a home charger. I may have posted this before .
Friends built a home about 10 years ago in a new subdivision in West Van. One of the really nice ones with real curbs, underground wiring, etc., etc. As you can imagine none of these homes are inexpensive and way, way out of our snack bracket.
So my pal is looking around the neighborhood last year and sees how many of the neighbours have one or more electric cars. The answer is quite a few. So he starts thinking that maybe he should get a car charger or two installed in their garage for future resale purposes.
He calls BC Hydro and they have to do some checking and will get back to him.
Much to his surprise when Hydro calls back they explain. to him that there is not enough capacity still available in his neighborhood to allow him to put in even one car charger.
We had the preliminary wiring installed when we bought our house 8 years ago (smart electrician ) and with the Government Grants still available we are going to install a charger now while our neighborhood still has the capacity.
Friends built a home about 10 years ago in a new subdivision in West Van. One of the really nice ones with real curbs, underground wiring, etc., etc. As you can imagine none of these homes are inexpensive and way, way out of our snack bracket.
So my pal is looking around the neighborhood last year and sees how many of the neighbours have one or more electric cars. The answer is quite a few. So he starts thinking that maybe he should get a car charger or two installed in their garage for future resale purposes.
He calls BC Hydro and they have to do some checking and will get back to him.
Much to his surprise when Hydro calls back they explain. to him that there is not enough capacity still available in his neighborhood to allow him to put in even one car charger.
We had the preliminary wiring installed when we bought our house 8 years ago (smart electrician ) and with the Government Grants still available we are going to install a charger now while our neighborhood still has the capacity.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
I watched a show that talked about the biggest hurdle to clean energy projects like wind and solar, Is not the cost of the projects but the cost of redoing the power distribution network and transmission lines. A start up might want to put in a 100 million dollar solar, but might be another 500 million put in high capacity lines from the project site. That in turned shows no path to profitability.
Max123
Well-Known Member
100amps is the minimum required for a single family house of any size, but needs to be cross checked against a load calculation to confirm adequate power.
Base load is 5kw for first 90m2 floor area, then add 1kw for every additional 90m2. say you have a 2500ft2 house = 232m2, this would be a 7kw base allowance.
Add stove: 6kw (per code)
Add 100% HVAC: say 6kw (estimate based on typical 3-4ton heat pump), however backup electric heat can add 10-15kw+ on top
Add 100% electrical water heater: 3-4.5kw
Add 25% of any additional loads in excess of 1.5kw (dryer, etc)
40amp EV charge (actually 32amps) adds 7.7kw
However, most existing single family houses in Vancouver use natural gas so in a lot of cases no HVAC load, no hot water load, no stove load. A 100amp panel is tons - you basically have almost zero extra load. But, once you start converting things to electric - things add up fast. Induction range, heat pump... then you buy that Tesla...
Once you load calc is above 24kw, you need a new panel and new feeder.
(just a reminder: Amps x volts (240V) = watts, then divide by 1000 for kw)
150-200amps is totally normal in areas with no natural gas.
PS - not an electrician - just a guy that can read CEC 8-200
Base load is 5kw for first 90m2 floor area, then add 1kw for every additional 90m2. say you have a 2500ft2 house = 232m2, this would be a 7kw base allowance.
Add stove: 6kw (per code)
Add 100% HVAC: say 6kw (estimate based on typical 3-4ton heat pump), however backup electric heat can add 10-15kw+ on top
Add 100% electrical water heater: 3-4.5kw
Add 25% of any additional loads in excess of 1.5kw (dryer, etc)
40amp EV charge (actually 32amps) adds 7.7kw
However, most existing single family houses in Vancouver use natural gas so in a lot of cases no HVAC load, no hot water load, no stove load. A 100amp panel is tons - you basically have almost zero extra load. But, once you start converting things to electric - things add up fast. Induction range, heat pump... then you buy that Tesla...
Once you load calc is above 24kw, you need a new panel and new feeder.
(just a reminder: Amps x volts (240V) = watts, then divide by 1000 for kw)
150-200amps is totally normal in areas with no natural gas.
PS - not an electrician - just a guy that can read CEC 8-200
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Max123
Well-Known Member
If your panel / feeder can support the load you don't need to talk to BC Hydro to ask permission. Its only if you want to do a service upgrade.
Max123
Well-Known Member
If you are really interested in options for managing your electrical load to work with an existing service/panel, consider a few things to significantly reduced your electrical load:
1) If you purchase a heat pump, I would absolutely avoid electric resistance as backup heat. It adds 10-15kw. Instead, keep a natural gas fireplace or wood stove (if allowed) as your backup source. Most of the current government incentives will allow you to keep a natural gas fireplace - which I think is great (only used a few times a year, and avoids massive peak load infrastructure upgrades). Two fuel sources is ideal in the event of a blackout anyway. Also, make sure your electrician uses the actual load, not the circuit size. While it might require a 40amp circuit for startup load, the operating load is lower.
2) A heat pump clothes dryer only takes about 900w and a heat pump hot water heater is only 1100w. Both are less than 1500w so they aren't added to your load calc.
All of these are minor sacrifices and well worth considering when the cost of re-doing your electrical service can be a $20k + bill. What is particularly galling is that the electrical code has changed so you often need to redo the overhead service mast and meter base as well. God forbid you live in an area where the municipality wants you to underground an overhead line...
All that being said - hire an electrician to do the work. You can make smart choices to reduce your load, but you don't want to start melting things...
1) If you purchase a heat pump, I would absolutely avoid electric resistance as backup heat. It adds 10-15kw. Instead, keep a natural gas fireplace or wood stove (if allowed) as your backup source. Most of the current government incentives will allow you to keep a natural gas fireplace - which I think is great (only used a few times a year, and avoids massive peak load infrastructure upgrades). Two fuel sources is ideal in the event of a blackout anyway. Also, make sure your electrician uses the actual load, not the circuit size. While it might require a 40amp circuit for startup load, the operating load is lower.
2) A heat pump clothes dryer only takes about 900w and a heat pump hot water heater is only 1100w. Both are less than 1500w so they aren't added to your load calc.
All of these are minor sacrifices and well worth considering when the cost of re-doing your electrical service can be a $20k + bill. What is particularly galling is that the electrical code has changed so you often need to redo the overhead service mast and meter base as well. God forbid you live in an area where the municipality wants you to underground an overhead line...
All that being said - hire an electrician to do the work. You can make smart choices to reduce your load, but you don't want to start melting things...
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