Cowichan River Chinooks for sale

[dfrase]

This is a tough topic and to look at it through one lens is not going to result in a viable solution. Blaming the first nation's folks based on one van down by the bridge is BS. If we want to talk about who has done what to who I am sure that we will find ourselves on the losing end of that argument. If we didn't attack their homes, steal their land and try to disintegrate their culture, we wouldn't be here in the first place and we would be arguing over who caught the biggest carp in some ****** pond in the UK.

The underlying issue is lack of enforcement and knowledge of our fisheries as a whole.

I spent most of July and June fishing weekends in OB and launching from cattle point. Many times when i was coming in I saw people cleaning illegal fish - not one was first nations either. On two occasions I saw folks in kayaks or small aluminums cleaning fish at the right side of the boat launch and had dozens of illegal fish. Most recently it was two guys in kayaks who must have had 2 dozen "cod" fish that they were cleaning and chucking in a bag. These fish ranged from about 8-16 inches and included small lings and kelp lings. By this time I had enough and let the guys know that those were protected species and they could get huge fines for keeping the fish. Him and his buddy laughed and said they had no idea and they thought only salmon had regulations. they said "they are just cod"

I have been fishing here my whole life and have never once been approached by DFO on the water. I am only at sooke a few times a yr but on the waterfront it has never happened. Summers are spent up island and same thing there. I keep up to date with fishing and boating license and have never had to show it to anyone. seen DFO boats but only when they are cruising by

the closest thing i have seen at the dock is the conservation folks with the clipboard at the launch asking what you caught. but they look about as threatening as a puppy.

bottom line is that folks won't follow the rules until the fisheries are protected with a presence that actually makes people think twice before breaking the rules.

Signs at the boat launches, commercials, whatever it takes - get the message out there

Maybe the Oak Bay police could spare a few minutes of saving cats from trees and lend a hand.....

 

[chris73]

You are absolutely right, dfrase. There are bad apples in each user group. I have seen my share of bad angling ethics as well and called out a few. However, those few bad apples will always exist unfortunately. The things is that it is very unlikely that these few bad apples among the angling community can do significant harm to fish stocks with the angling methods deployed. It looks a little different when a few bad apples among the FN communities use nets and river barriers. The implications are much more severe. The end result is what counts for the fish stocks not the bad intention by whoever.

And I agree as well that we should not dwell in the past as it was NOT the FN that brought the salmon stocks to about 10% of what they used to be. Dwelling in the past is not useful as it does not help solving the imminent issues we face right now. Therefore FN have to realize - regardless of the history - that their impact right now is critical for the survival of what's left.

 

[MRACER]

If we want to talk about who has done what to who I am sure that we will find ourselves on the losing end of that argument. If we didn't attack their homes, steal their land and try to disintegrate their culture, we wouldn't be here in the first place and we would be arguing over who caught the biggest carp in some ****** pond in the UK.

the above comment only makes sense if the Romans (Italy) are giving a tax break to the English and paying for all of their services! Every nation has been conquered by some one else in the history of the world- Only in Canada do the next 100 generations pay for the sins of great grand fathers- Suck it up boysand become equal Canadians!

 

[dfrase]

Here's a little timeline to assist your understanding:

-1930's-40's : thousands of first nations people fought as canadians in the first and second world war to protect a country that was taking away their land across the country. they were drafted the same as other canadians.
- in 1951 Canada raised the ban on potlaches and dance ceremonies... meaning that although they could fight in war beside us, they were not allowed to practice any of their traditions - not even a group dinner or a dance.
- 1959 the federal government allowed first nation's people to be registered as canadian citizens
-it wasn't until 1960 that they were allowed to vote in federal elections.

you are talking about events from 2000 years ago(romans). we are talking about events in the past 80 years.

this is not great grandfathers -this is a generation away. For me, my parents lifetime

Having said that, i do agree that it is the responsibility of the FN people to lead by example. The solution here must be a collaborative effort.

my family is cree indian and my ancestors were those forced to go to war - right beside my ancestors who volunteered for the war. and then after the war, they all celebrated and whammy - here i am

in all seriousness, as someone of mixed blood, i buy a fishing license to support the fisheries and it angers me off to see anyone abusing our fisheries - first nations, caucasian, asian or anyone else

the only thing that pisses me off about scholarships and free education for first nations is that less than 10% of those scholarships ever get used and the money goes right back to the government. wasted opportunity and another example that throwing money at something doesn't fix it

 

[fish stalker]

I always find it so crazy to hear people pointing the finger at first nations. They have fished here for THOUSANDS of years with no decline it was the Europeans who came here and bumped them off the tuned food and trade fishing into sport, its a fact. And still we build roads and citys and log over streams and rivers and think a culvert will do the job. Dam and lakes and rivers and sell for power and drinking water. The world with our exploding population is to blame. Just curious does anyone have any idea of the survival rate and numbers of natural born and bred salmon leaving the rivers? Not ones places there by hatcheries in the spring. Is there any kind of numbers?

Campbell River

The First Nations people had fished for Tyee for unknown ages prior to the coming of Europeans. They used several methods including spears and hand lines, from dugout canoes, as well as traps. They were adept at catching fish as well as being truly conservationist in practice. The first white men who fished here expressed great admiration for their skill.

The first account of angling for Tyee appeared in The Field, published in London, October 1896. This was submitted by Sir Richard Musgrave who described the excellent fishing he had off the mouth of the Campbell River in September of that year. He used a dugout canoe paddled by a Native guide from Cape Mudge. He and his partner, W. H. Gordon, took nineteen Tyee in one week as well as several Coho and trout. His largest fish, taken September 20th, weighed 70 pounds. A model of this fish, made by a Mr. Fannin of the museum at Victoria, was subsequently displayed at Wards in Piccadilly and acclaimed as the largest salmon ever taken on rod and line.

The next year, 1897, Musgrave returned with a party of six. This party stayed less than two weeks and the largest fish [67.5 lbs] was taken on September 3rd.

A further report in The Field, January, 1901, again describes the excellent fishing and pays a very warm tribute to the hospitality and skill of the Native guides. One angler, in eight days of fishing, landed 24 salmon with an average weight of 37 pounds. The smallest was 25 pounds and the largest was 50 pounds. The fishing took place in September because this particular party did not leave Victoria for the fishing grounds until September 3rd.

In October, 1901, one angler describes his nineteen days of fishing under the heading "Two Tons of Salmon with the Rod". His lightest salmon weighed in at 22 1/2 pounds and the heaviest at 58 pounds. His best day's fishing was August 17th.

It is evident from several reports in The Field that Tyee fishing was well established by 1903. By this time, the first Willows Hotel was in operation and the management provided boats and guides. Prior to this anglers had to bring food, tents, etc. and camped on the Campbell River.

A detailed and extensive report of the Tyee fishing in Campbell River was given by Sir John Rogers in his book, Sport in Vancouver and Newfoundland. This covered the 1908 season from July 30th to August 26th. He captured 41 Tyee weighing a total of 1738 pounds (the largest was 60 pounds), 15 Spring salmon, 126 Coho, and 37 trout.

In a personal communication to the Tyee Club, Mr. Eric. D. Sismey, of Naramata, B.C., describes the Tyee fishing in 1912. He stated that one might see a half a dozen boatmen rowing an equal number of fishermen and there would be a dozen or twenty Natives hand-lining from dugouts.

Following the 1914-1918 war there was a sharp increase in the number of Tyee fishermen.

 

[fshnfnatic]

If we want to talk about who has done what to who I am sure that we will find ourselves on the losing end of that argument. If we didn't attack their homes, steal their land and try to disintegrate their culture, we wouldn't be here in the first place and we would be arguing over who caught the biggest carp in some ****** pond in the UK.

the above comment only makes sense if the Romans (Italy) are giving a tax break to the English and paying for all of their services! Every nation has been conquered by some one else in the history of the world- Only in Canada do the next 100 generations pay for the sins of great grand fathers- Suck it up boysand become equal Canadians![/Q

X2 MRACER. You hit the nail right on the head!! I've been saying this exact thing for years.They're the biggest "poor
me's" on the planet.

 

[Cuba Libre]

They were adept at catching fish as well as being truly conservationist in practice. The first white men who fished here expressed great admiration for their skill.

That is a myth perpetuated by first nations and those who have the "Remington" view of the noble indian.

Visit Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump park--- driving a whole herd over a cliff and using just a small portion of the kill is hardly practicing conservation. With fish-- the limiting factor was their limited ability to smoke (store) salmon. It was common practice when the white men first showed up to build a weir in the estuary of streams and kill everyfish that was caught. When the run diminished, they just moved to the next creek. The truth is that there were never enough Natives with the technology to really decimate other than smaller runs. It had nothing to do with conservation (with the except of those that practiced the Fist Salmon Ceremony, which acknowledged what the salmon meant to their survival).

So what did we WASPS contribute????? The means to slaughter far more animals and fish and to throw profit into the equation.

But given a few hundred years without interference from Europeans, I suspect they would have arrived where we are today all by themselves-- just like the Maori did with the moa.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

If we want to talk about who has done what to who I am sure that we will find ourselves on the losing end of that argument. If we didn't attack their homes, steal their land and try to disintegrate their culture, we wouldn't be here in the first place and we would be arguing over who caught the biggest carp in some ****** pond in the UK.

the above comment only makes sense if the Romans (Italy) are giving a tax break to the English and paying for all of their services! Every nation has been conquered by some one else in the history of the world- Only in Canada do the next 100 generations pay for the sins of great grand fathers- Suck it up boysand become equal Canadians![/Q

X2 MRACER. You hit the nail right on the head!! I've been saying this exact thing for years.They're the biggest "poor
me's" on the planet.

Here here...couldn't agree more...in 300 years time they will be saying the stories of their great great great great great grandfathers hurt their feelings and made them cry, so we owe them... pffttt!

 

[the rook]

cant fix stupid!!!!!!

 

[dfrase]

Here here...couldn't agree more...in 300 years time they will be saying the stories of their great great great great great grandfathers hurt their feelings and made them cry, so we owe them... pffttt!

WOW! you posted an ignorant racist comment like that with your business website and sponsor site two inches underneath.....

imagine if someone sent a screenshot of that to p-line to see how good their brand looks under that lovely comment! or if they sent it to tourism port hardy and a few local FN's groups up there...

congrats, you sir are either very ballsy or just completely oblivious to the social media **** storm that could obliterate your business

 

[Aces]

WOW! you posted an ignorant racist comment like that with your business website and sponsor site two inches underneath.....

imagine if someone sent a screenshot of that to p-line to see how good their brand looks under that lovely comment! or if they sent it to tourism port hardy and a few local FN's groups up there...

congrats, you sir are either very ballsy or just completely oblivious to the social media **** storm that could obliterate your business

Bwahaha!! I guess the truth hurts

 

[wicket]

so how much longer are we going to have to pay and turn a blind eye to the law and have a 2 tier system. bloody crazy if you ask me. enough is enough. One system governing everyone regardless of skin or language. I love this country more than anything i can think of but it bothers me to no end that someone wont step up and make the hard decisions. Phawk sakes I bought a calgary flames jersy for my wife and a first nations dude was in the store throwing out his status card saving the tax on his 3 bags of items and as he slung those bags over the leather coat he was wearing and walked away trying not to scuff his 300 dollar shoes I was wondering which highway that is maintained with tax dollars he was going to take. Call me a racist couldnt care less, this is 2012 and this bs needs to stop and we need to be one country ....yah Im looking at you too french seperatists get on board or take a boat to iran and carve out your niche there.

 

[Seafever]

Perhaps my earlier post was a little acidic and comes off as anti-FN.

I'm not anti FN or racist.

When I was a kid living in Ontario for awhile, my best friend and fishing buddy was an Iroquois native.

Neither of us ever gave a thought about how to run the world. Neither of us cared whether the other person was white or native. We were too busy getting along, fishing and having fun.

Poisonous indoctrination, half truths and outright historic lies came later in the game courtesy of school books. Most of what was written in school books back then (and still is) is total "revisionist history" designed to appease the gullible. Take the case of just about anything written concerning Louis Riel for example.


My only beef with the FN, now that I'm much older and have seen exactly how the world works (which is :- everybody wants to run it and will stop at nothing to achieve that goal )is their oft-quoted dogma that they were stewards of the land and water long,long ago and not-so-far-away. They were at war a lot with each other, band conquering band, and the carnage was often brutal. So when you settle a land claim, first you have to figure out which band owned it in the first place, not the subsequent conquering tribe.

But.....you can't really blame them....everybody wants a slice of the pie and they way they've been historically treated perhaps they deserve a half-decent slice.

There was a line from a Rolling Stone song that went something like:- " everyone wondering who killed the Kennedy's, when you know it was you and me".

From 1900 onward it was the collective greed of get-rich-quickers, money-hungry entrepreneurs, and the lure of the big dollar and fast buck that got us where we are today.

"They" might have made our bed.......but "we" have to sleep in it.

Arguments about whether technological change is good or bad, or whether fate is pre-ordained, or whether things might have gone differently if certain events had not occurred is all irrelevant at this point in time.

Fact is.....The DFO , by mandate, is currently "the steward" of fish-stocks in Canadian oceans.

Well...at least in theory.

From what I've heard/seen the DFO knew about the low water on the Cowichan early on...and turned control of the water level enhancement over to the city council who dithered and dithered until it was too late.

 

[MRWood]

WOW! you posted an ignorant racist comment like that with your business website and sponsor site two inches underneath.....
imagine if someone sent a screenshot of that to p-line to see how good their brand looks under that lovely comment! or if they sent it to tourism port hardy and a few local FN's groups up there...
congrats, you sir are either very ballsy or just completely oblivious to the social media **** storm that could obliterate your business[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with Serengeti Guide. It's people like you that are the reason that we will be having 1 set of rules for natives and another set for the rest of us for the foreseeable future. This is what it all boils down to. You're far too quick to start calling people racist. Is that what makes you feel better about your self. You're also way out of line on comments about his business.

 

[MRACER]

It is very hard to make a post feeling that someone will call you RACIST and I applaud all those who summon the courage to post. I don't feel that those who favor equallity for all Canadians regardless of race or religion can be called racist. JMHO
Comments on DFO and Local Gov'ts are certainly deserved and are not race based....some of my best friends are in the Cdn Coast Guard which is part of DFO and they certainly are there to Cover you butt! So don't feel you can throw dirt at DFO and then stick up for FN without many on this board taking offense with your race based comments!

 

[dfrase]

WOW! you posted an ignorant racist comment like that with your business website and sponsor site two inches underneath.....
imagine if someone sent a screenshot of that to p-line to see how good their brand looks under that lovely comment! or if they sent it to tourism port hardy and a few local FN's groups up there...
congrats, you sir are either very ballsy or just completely oblivious to the social media **** storm that could obliterate your business

I totally agree with Serengeti Guide. It's people like you that are the reason that we will be having 1 set of rules for natives and another set for the rest of us for the foreseeable future. This is what it all boils down to. You're far too quick to start calling people racist. Is that what makes you feel better about your self. You're also way out of line on comments about his business.[/QUOTE]

I am not out of line about his business in any way shape or form... you post comments on a public website with your company name and website underneath, you better believe your company will be aligned with any comments you post, regardless of what they are about. that is common sense and i am not going to apologize for pointing it out.

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone disagreeing with the practices of FN or with the legislation the government has in place regarding them.

What i have issue with, as a First Nations person, is someone implying that the transgressions outlined in my previous post happened hundreds of years ago and likening them to "hurt feelings".

Feelings are hurt when someone flips you the bird and calls you an asshole while driving. Feelings are hurt when someone takes a **** and doesn't flush

Feelings were not hurt...people's cultures were destroyed, women were raped, young men were forced to fight in a war for a country that they were not allowed to vote in.

Was all of this awfulness part of Canada's path to the amazing country we are today - absolutely. But let's not try to erase it from history in order to make ourselves feel better.

Do we need to apologize to them everyday -absolutely not. do we owe them money or the right to ruin the fisheries - i don't think so.

But you bet your butt it will **** me off if you write comments that diminish the impact it had on the FN culture and try to make light of awful things that happened. no different than if someone came on here and said the holocaust never happened.

history is filled with awful things but the least we can do is show respect to those that went through it

A solution for our fisheries will not come from throwing stones at DFO or FN people... it will take a holistic approach that brings all of the parties together to tackle the tough topics.

And for those that think all I want to do is stick up for FN ppl -It makes me sick to my stomach to see some of the FN fishing practices that go on in BC. No different than how it sickens me to see white guys fishing in 5 ft of water dragging 40lb salmon out of the nitnat. bad fishing practice is bad fishing practice

 

[Big Green Machine]

I totally agree with Serengeti Guide. It's people like you that are the reason that we will be having 1 set of rules for natives and another set for the rest of us for the foreseeable future. This is what it all boils down to. You're far too quick to start calling people racist. Is that what makes you feel better about your self. You're also way out of line on comments about his business.

I am not out of line about his business in any way shape or form... you post comments on a public website with your company name and website underneath, you better believe your company will be aligned with any comments you post, regardless of what they are about. that is common sense and i am not going to apologize for pointing it out.

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone disagreeing with the practices of FN or with the legislation the government has in place regarding them.

What i have issue with, as a First Nations person, is someone implying that the transgressions outlined in my previous post happened hundreds of years ago and likening them to "hurt feelings".

Feelings are hurt when someone flips you the bird and calls you an asshole while driving. Feelings are hurt when someone takes a **** and doesn't flush

Feelings were not hurt...people's cultures were destroyed, women were raped, young men were forced to fight in a war for a country that they were not allowed to vote in.

Was all of this awfulness part of Canada's path to the amazing country we are today - absolutely. But let's not try to erase it from history in order to make ourselves feel better.

Do we need to apologize to them everyday -absolutely not. do we owe them money or the right to ruin the fisheries - i don't think so.

But you bet your butt it will **** me off if you write comments that diminish the impact it had on the FN culture and try to make light of awful things that happened. no different than if someone came on here and said the holocaust never happened.

history is filled with awful things but the least we can do is show respect to those that went through it

A solution for our fisheries will not come from throwing stones at DFO or FN people... it will take a holistic approach that brings all of the parties together to tackle the tough topics.

And for those that think all I want to do is stick up for FN ppl -It makes me sick to my stomach to see some of the FN fishing practices that go on in BC. No different than how it sickens me to see white guys fishing in 5 ft of water dragging 40lb salmon out of the nitnat. bad fishing practice is bad fishing practice[/QUOTE]

Awesome response!

 

[scott craven]

dfrase,

you are obviously a well educated intelligent person.
your sentiments are heard and fully respected.
lets hope those that respect & cherish our fishery and the resource
out number the others.

 

[Lipripper]

Well put dfrase.