Chinook fishery to close ???

[Whole in the Water]

You have a good point. And I appreciate the intelligence behind your argument. Thanks for taking the time and effort.
I'll debate you on numbers = facts: You say - "From DFO, from Charlie's Web site sources, from anywhere, but we need the numbers." That statement does not build my confidence that the numbers are at all meaningful. There are liars, damned liars and then there are the DFO number crunchers and their statistics. I do not believe there is much veracity behind their numbers - How can they get the forecasts so incredibly wrong, year after year? And yet we want to give them the benefit of the doubt, thinking what they provide will be any more accurate this year than in the past? We cling to faint hope. As Profisher says* - working with what we may have is not good enough, anyway. We need to rebuild the stocks to abundance.

Numbers and statistics do not equal truth. They don't matter anymore to the general public or the media - it's all too often been massaged, spun and manipulated for political and corporate ends. Stand a room of forecasters end to end and they will never reach a conclusion. We've been tricked too many times with bogus numbers. We are all sceptics around the numbers, statistics and forecasts - for fish, the economy or the weather. And whether it's politics or public opinion, the group with the most compelling story will always win the hearts and minds.

Right now we do not have that ace. When the media portrays us as "angry sports fisherman" versus a pleading Ernie Crey, who only "wants to get us into a room - to cooperate on fish and conservation", etc. any argument from us, informed, even replete with numbers, is inconsequential. We need to build a constituency and some credibility in the media / public arena first, through being viewed as cooperative, reasonable men. Then, maybe, our numbers might mean something.

*Profisher said: "I'm not satisfied with just protecting the fish that are left. That is far short of what any conscientious angler should accept from DFO. The time is long overdue for positive change by what ever means that will work to get these runs numbers back up to sustainable and healthy numbers. Obviously it is not just restricting the catch that will achieve this. But there has been enough talk and band aid BS for too long now. It is now time for action and results, or I fear it will be too late."

I believe it is a combination of using the best data available to base decisions as much as we can in facts and logic, but Foxsea is also right that we have to also play the political and media game to show people we are not just bunch selfish, angry, sports fisherman. We need to act and be seen by the general public as cool headed, cooperative team players willing to work with all stakeholders for a fair decision that promotes conservation. Now the fact is us sportfisherman have been doing this for some time, but we must continue to do it and be seen doing in the public eye. This is why smart organizations hire public relations and media consultants to manage their public image. Like it or not in the world of public opinion; image, perceptions and opinions trump fact, figues and truth just about every time!

 

[MRWood]

If the FN's (sto lo) were actually fishing for food purposes then I could think about supporting them to some degree. The problem is, they say they are fishing for food purposes but it is more like a commercial fishery. These guys are not the keepers of the land they purport to be. They are a major part of the problem and they need to be policed and prosecuted when they over fish. Look back over the years at the Sto Lo track record of conservation, it is not a pretty picture.

 

[Foxsea]

Maybe we should offer buying the fishing licences from the FN instead from DFO. Might as well and the FN might start seeing value in the sport fishery as well and support us in principle.

Chris: this could be part of a winning strategy!
DFO has proven to be an ongoing trainwreck and their performance will never improve, running out of Ottawa, disconnected and we are left with the baggage of continual cut-backs on our coastal waters. The good news is that the recent Court response has left them flat-footed in B.C. - they have lost significant authority over the F.N.'s. and this resource. It's apparent what the F.N.'s are looking for - recognition of their legitimate authority, an opportunity to capitalize on it and severance from our Government. Our common enemy is big, disconnected, incompetent government (especially after Yale). They are angry too and appear to be looking for allies in their fight - against government, not against us. Crey is holding an olive branch and has apparently been given some authority to reach out to us.

If the Sto:lo were to develop a vested interest in conservation, imposing and enforcing restrictions on the Fraser, it would be a win-win. The F.N.'s can do what we and DFO cannot on our own.They too realize that the fish are in peril and they could lose it all, as well. This is a great place for us to begin a negotiated partnership around this fishery and its preservation.

 

[Foxsea]

. They are a major part of the problem and they need to be policed and prosecuted when they over fish.[/QUOTE

Will not happen - our Courts have effectively given them control over the fishery. Every time that's challenged, we give up more control.

 

[chris73]

The issue I see is that there are influences within the FN (and I speak of high ranking ones) that don't care a bit about the sustainability of the FN fishery and the fish stocks. Some see it this way: let's catch them all and sell for greatest profit and then when the salmon are gone we sue the government for not providing the fish the FN are entitled to according to the treaties. This means millions of $ in compensation for salmon that don't exist anymore. Don't kid yourself, those thoughts exist. Losers are the fish, the anglers and the ecosystem and the "little" FN who just wanted a few fish for food. Don't assume FN are nice to each other or on the same page for that matter. There are a few influential ones who strive to get richer on the backs of their FN brothers and the resource and the taxpayers. So, are you still so keen jumping into bed with them?

 

[OldBlackDog]

OMG, that is funny. You really need to start selling the stuff you are smoking..

Chris: this could be part of a winning strategy!
DFO has proven to be an ongoing trainwreck and their performance will never improve, running out of Ottawa, disconnected and we are left with the baggage of continual cut-backs on our coastal waters. The good news is that the recent Court response has left them flat-footed in B.C. - they have lost significant authority over the F.N.'s. and this resource. It's apparent what the F.N.'s are looking for - recognition of their legitimate authority, an opportunity to capitalize on it and severance from our Government. Our common enemy is big, disconnected, incompetent government (especially after Yale). They are angry too and appear to be looking for allies in their fight - against government, not against us. Crey is holding an olive branch and has apparently been given some authority to reach out to us.

If the Sto:lo were to develop a vested interest in conservation, imposing and enforcing restrictions on the Fraser, it would be a win-win. The F.N.'s can do what we and DFO cannot on our own.They too realize that the fish are in peril and they could lose it all, as well. This is a great place for us to begin a negotiated partnership around this fishery and its preservation.

 

[Optimist]

And Chris 73 that is the honest truth unfortunatly there is a dollar value to those fish and when there gone compensation will be in order,,,Was at Tratac the other day group of fn's from the ahousat band came in ordered 50 new high speed downriggers 150 fish totes and a whole lot of fishing tackle,the fish bonaaza is on and there right to sell fish just stepped up a notch or two,,game on boys

 

[Foxsea]

The issue I see is that there are influences within the FN (and I speak of high ranking ones) that don't care a bit about the sustainability of the FN fishery and the fish stocks. Some see it this way: let's catch them all and sell for greatest profit and then when the salmon are gone we sue the government for not providing the fish the FN are entitled to according to the treaties. This means millions of $ in compensation for salmon that don't exist anymore. Don't kid yourself, those thoughts exist. Losers are the fish, the anglers and the ecosystem and the "little" FN who just wanted a few fish for food. Don't assume FN are nice to each other or on the same page for that matter. There are a few influential ones who strive to get richer on the backs of their FN brothers and the resource and the taxpayers. So, are you still so keen jumping into bed with them?

It would seem unbelievable that they could mismanage salmon any worse that DFO and our governments have done: Concentrating the commercial fishery to a few powerful players, destroying coastal communities; flawed licence buy-back programs resulting in greater commercial capacity; giving away the halibut fishery to connected commercial interests; promoting disasterous aquacultural operations; deregulating logging, mining and industrial development thereby destroying critical fish habitat; the "gold-rush" in run-of-river power projects; allowing untreated pollution into fish-rearing waters (e.g. Victoria), expediting the Northern Gateway project, etc. ad infinitum.

i will not argue with the point you make but WE, in the larger community are not always nice to each other either, or on the same page for that matter. There are a few influential ones (the 1% elite) who get richer through corruption, on the backs of their brothers, through stealing our public resources and through enormous subsidies from the taxpayers (our banks, oil companies, miners, defence contractors, etc.)

Our Courts have confirmed the right of some First Nations tribes to sell fish and conduct a commercial fishery. They also maintain their right to fish for food and ceremonial purposes. Aboriginal entitlement supercedes all other commercial and recreational considerations now. The only consideration, as far as our Courts are concerned, that trumps aboriginal entitlement is conservation. So that's the only thing we can reasonably be negotiating with F.N.'s on. Anything else is irrelevant.

I'm cynical too: even after our native salmon are gone, our government will continue to deliver the F.N.'s with their entitlement of fish from the expanding number of Norwegian-owned fish farms. I'd really like to say lol but it could happen.

 

[Englishman]

I believe it is a combination of using the best data available to base decisions as much as we can in facts and logic, but Foxsea is also right that we have to also play the political and media game to show people we are not just bunch selfish, angry, sports fisherman. We need to act and be seen by the general public as cool headed, cooperative team players willing to work with all stakeholders for a fair decision that promotes conservation. Now the fact is us sportfisherman have been doing this for some time, but we must continue to do it and be seen doing in the public eye. This is why smart organizations hire public relations and media consultants to manage their public image. Like it or not in the world of public opinion; image, perceptions and opinions trump fact, figues and truth just about every time!

I understand what you guys are saying and rec fishermen may have to do something to counter the image portrayed in the press. However, I do not accept that numbers and statistics are useless and can be manipulated and "spun" in the media. This would not be possible if the numbers were reliable, consistent, based on proper statistical sampling techniques and were performed every year. Of course this takes money and resources which the DFO is starved of at the moment but that is part of what is missing. To retreat from trying to get to the facts by getting better data, and give up substance, and go for style and media consultants and public perception only will be a sad day. I believe politics are part of the problem, not the solution. The only true solutions lie with science, not opinion and guesswork or even because everyone is "happy". The East Coast scientists said the fishery there was heading for disaster because they had the numbers to prove it. It was politics which kept it open long after it should have been because politicians do not care about the environment or ecosystems, especially over the long term. They only care about the votes at the next poll.

Fisheries conservation and management is in trouble all over the world because they are managed by political processes, not by conservation science. Sadly I fear we in Canada are going the same way......

 

[fish stalker]

I wondered about your point about dfo being 'starved'. Made me wonder how much they actually get. When I went on there site a few months ago I noticed AIMAP or something grants (big ones too 200g) that were available and I thought it was interesting they were doing this and looked at the rules for people applying. They were definitely looking for specific aquaculture ideas namely anything fishfarm. I still havent found the number but I came across this article wow talk about taking it dry. Not sure if there talking all Canadian dfo or just east coast.

http://halifax.openfile.ca/halifax/...illion-atlantic-investment-tax-credit-removed

That said, not everything announced today is good news for Atlantic Canada. The budget calls for $79.3 million in cuts to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (we reported earlier cuts in October), expected to be rolled out by 2014-15. As the budget notes, Fisheries and Oceans will be expected to "restructure its operations, consolidate internal services, and leverage technology" to hit that number.

However, the budget does provide $10.5 million in 2012-13 to the department to support "science activities important to industry." Some 80,000 people are employed in the country's commercial fisheries, and scientific monitoring of key commercial stocks not only supports conservation initiatives but also allows higher catch levels to be set "with greater confidence," the budget notes.

 

[GLG]

Only the government could put "conservation initiatives" and "higher catch levels" into the same sentence and try to make it smell like a rose.

The budget also had 33.5 million for FN Inc for more commercial fishing. That's new money on top of the millions that DFO gives every year to fulfill their aspiration to take over the industry. (175 million over 5 years) That's along with grants every quarter for what ever they need.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/GCSC/reports_e.asp
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/picfi-ipcip/index-eng.htm

GLG

 

[Cuba Libre]

science activities important to industry.


And who thinks this is just for the commercial fishing industry. The way I read it-- it includes the "other" industry-- fish farms.....

 

[Foxsea]

Only the government could put "conservation initiatives" and "higher catch levels" into the same sentence and try to make it smell like a rose.

You sure got that right!

The budget also had 33.5 million for FN Inc for more commercial fishing. That's new money on top of the millions that DFO gives every year to fulfill their aspiration to take over the industry. (175 million over 5 years) That's along with grants every quarter for what ever they need.

You will see lots more Gov. (our) money going to F.N.'s, too - because of this:

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=36

Fastest growing population segment (meanwhile Caucasian pop.'n is declining) and almost 50% of that population is under 25 years old! The Feds are desperately attempting to get all these young people busy doing something productive - like fishing. We ain't seen nothin' yet! ...and that's written in stone and neon, guys.

Sorry to be the messenger if you didn't already know...just the facts - and the numbers. I'll anticipate more forum beat-downs from the usual suspects but perhaps my medical marijuana will dull the pain.

 

[Foxsea]

OMG, that is funny. You really need to start selling the stuff you are smoking..

Ho muz ya wan', ma ras Bradda? oz bagz o'keyz? I be harvestin' oney da bes! Woo Sah bak. Zepz da bes

 

[bushwackin]

Ho muz ya wan', ma ras Bradda? oz bagz o'keyz? I be harvestin' oney da bes! Woo Sah bak. Zepz da bes

That's f##king hilarious!!!

 

[sir-vivor]

Ho muz ya wan', ma ras Bradda? oz bagz o'keyz? I be harvestin' oney da bes! Woo Sah bak. Zepz da bes

Let me know what it said so I can laugh WTF ???

 

[bushwackin]

Jamaican drug dealer?!

 

[combover]

well i hope there enforcement budget goes way up.

 

[bushwackin]

Yah right!

well i hope there enforcement budget goes way up.

 

[sammyslabber]

Ho muz ya wan', ma ras Bradda? oz bagz o'keyz? I be harvestin' oney da bes! Woo Sah bak. Zepz da bes

And you're complaing about spanish on da forum! bumba ras clot mon!Lamsbred da numba one mon!!