bye-bye-barbless

[advTHXance]

You bring up an important and overlooked aspect of barbless hooks. It is the efficiency in which you are able to sort thru the shakers that has you back in the water faster impaling more fish. If you had to physically handle each fish with care to remove the hooks you lose lots of fishing time. Lets say you have a barbed hook and land a nice keeper Chinook which you netted. Now you spend ten minutes out of the water getting your hook out of the net and loose fishing time. How about the barbed hook gets caught in you sweater, lost fishing time. What about the days when an angler gets a barbed hook in the hand? Lots of lost fishing that day! Now lets say you have barbless hooks and you just want to catch one fish to retain but every time you stop the boat to real in the keeper Chinook the hook falls out! Now how many shakers do you impale in continued attempt to catch that last Chinook with barbless hooks? Only in political optics does barbless hooks conserve salmon. It was simple the, "green" thing to do. In the function of fishing for salmon they have little conservative benefits.

If barbed hooks were allowed I believe it would help me lessen the impact of my business of assisting people to harvest their legal limit of salmon.

What a ridiculous assertion!

First of all if youre planning on possibly releasing fish, you should be using a rubber mesh netbag, which a barbed hook will almost certainly not bury itself in the net as it would a twine net bag. Youre also assuming that youre going to land a fish that must be released every 20 mins and while that might be the case occasionally, its far more likely the exception than the rule. I dont personally know who you are, or where you fish, or what your guests are like, so Im speaking in a general sense. I fish maybe 150-200 days a year and atleast 100 of those are with guests - for 10 hours a day, so I have seen my fair share of unorthodox techniques, but I explain to my guests how the rods/reels work, how the fish fights, and coach my guests through it. Even the most clueless landlubbing greenhorn guests land most of their fish with a little positive encouragement.

How often do you get a hook in your sweater? By the sounds of things thats also happening every 20 mins. You must be really unlucky or really clumsy!

If your guests are losing every fish with barbless hooks, maybe try "guiding" them on how to play a fish, or help them out with varying the speed of your kicker, or a hundred other things. Or just take the lazy route and slap a big fat barb on there so it doesnt matter what your guests do with the rod.

 

[advTHXance]

I could tell everyone this but until it is on paper in a study nobody seems to believe or care.

Imagine that. Your opinion is not necessarily fact.

 

[Powerset]

I don’t doubt for a second it’s easier to remove a barbless hook versus a barbed one. I have never used a barbed hook to catch a salmon or Steelhead! I guess when you read through the thread it’s up to the individual sportsman to do the right thing. The C&R thing is an interesting issue. I’m sure over the years plenty of us have had 10 fish days, 12 fish days, kept our 2 and gone home thrilled at our good fortune. I haven’t fished Steelhead in a decade but did for 15 years previous to that. I never went with the intention of ever keeping a fish and never did! Mostly because I fished in a no retention system, but not always. Did that mean I was a good sportsman for not keeping Steelhead or salmon when I could have or a bad one for fishing in a C&R only system? How many sportsman hit a nice spring on their first drift and keep him and head straight in on a perfect morning, rather than enjoy some C&R fishing just for the enjoyment? I remember last couple years hearing plenty of “stories” during a fishing derby up island where many many boats released 3-4-5 shakers before they got their keeper for the scale, the shakers were legal fish but not derby winners so they were tossed. I must admit, I didn’t like hearing these tales, but it wasn’t an isolated tale. I heard it from plenty of fishermen to know it happened plenty. But, I don’t believe any rules or laws were broken, that’s fishing! But in a 200-300 boat fishing derby, that has consequences to fish stocks even when the fish are released. My wife worked for a giant hotelier years ago who also owned a fishing lodge in Alaska. I saw pictures from the lodge where in a morning fish, a guide and a couple guests would get their picture taken with a couple hali’s a few giant lings about 6-8 coho and 6-8 monster Chinook salmon. The dock was covered by these 2 or 3 anglers take for the morning! 4-500 lbs of seafood hammered out in a 4 hour charter. When I was 20 years old those pictures would have made me envious and I would have loved to go there to try my luck, today, those pictures bother me beyond description! And they broke no laws or rules!

 

[Powerset]

Imagine that. Your opinion is not necessarily fact.

I know guides up island that have to fish at 250-300 feet to find springs, lost fish are the rule not the exception

 

[advTHXance]

I know guides up island that have to fish at 250-300 feet to find springs, lost fish are the rule not the exception

I fish as deep as 300' in the Haida Gwaii, and spend a good chunk of the season fishing offshore in 160-240. I dont find we lose any more fishing deep than shallow. Most fish you bring up from 300' are dog tired by the time theyre half way up and arent nearly as lively as a fish hooked at say 40'. You have to keep the boat moving when youre fishing deep like that, monofilament has a ton of stretch.

 

[advTHXance]

Refering to chinook salmon btw, thsoe crazy cohos always find a way to shake loose.

 

[Fishmyster]

What a ridiculous assertion!

First of all if youre planning on possibly releasing fish, you should be using a rubber mesh netbag, which a barbed hook will almost certainly not bury itself in the net as it would a twine net bag. Youre also assuming that youre going to land a fish that must be released every 20 mins and while that might be the case occasionally, its far more likely the exception than the rule. I dont personally know who you are, or where you fish, or what your guests are like, so Im speaking in a general sense. I fish maybe 150-200 days a year and atleast 100 of those are with guests - for 10 hours a day, so I have seen my fair share of unorthodox techniques, but I explain to my guests how the rods/reels work, how the fish fights, and coach my guests through it. Even the most clueless landlubbing greenhorn guests land most of their fish with a little positive encouragement.

How often do you get a hook in your sweater? By the sounds of things thats also happening every 20 mins. You must be really unlucky or really clumsy!

If your guests are losing every fish with barbless hooks, maybe try "guiding" them on how to play a fish, or help them out with varying the speed of your kicker, or a hundred other things. Or just take the lazy route and slap a big fat barb on there so it doesnt matter what your guests do with the rod.

Hahahah. You sound like a person who feels no remorse when sorting thru shakers and releasing fish ALL DAY LONG till you have got you fishing pleasure in. Not everybody enjoys harming fish for pleasure like you but do like eating fish from the sea. It is about choice. I personally appreciate the meat hunters who chose to fish for food rather than just play with them for pleasure. I see both sides of fishing but respect the harvest aspect more than the all day pleasure fishing people.

I don't get hooks caught in my sweater often but it does happen. with the barbless hooks they come out fast and I am back in the water to harm more fish quickly. Hooks do not get caught in my net because I haven't used a net for the last thirty years in the ocean. Not everyone is as experienced as you may be and when they get hooks caught in stuff they would spend time out of the water trying to get a barbed hook back into the water. That saves salmon by keeping the hooks out of the water.

I do expect some people just won't get the concept of hurting less fish to get the desired harvest which is legal. Have fun this year poking all the fish you can to get your rocks off if that's what fishing is to you!

 

[Fishmyster]

Imagine that. Your opinion is not necessarily fact.

Are you saying unless it is in a study nothing is fact. Does it have to be on the internet to be real too??

 

[advTHXance]

Hahahah. You sound like a person who feels no remorse when sorting thru shakers and releasing fish ALL DAY LONG till you have got you fishing pleasure in. Not everybody enjoys harming fish for pleasure like you but do like eating fish from the sea. It is about choice. I personally appreciate the meat hunters who chose to fish for food rather than just play with them for pleasure. I see both sides of fishing but respect the harvest aspect more than the all day pleasure fishing people.

I don't get hooks caught in my sweater often but it does happen. with the barbless hooks they come out fast and I am back in the water to harm more fish quickly. Hooks do not get caught in my net because I haven't used a net for the last thirty years in the ocean. Not everyone is as experienced as you may be and when they get hooks caught in stuff they would spend time out of the water trying to get a barbed hook back into the water. That saves salmon by keeping the hooks out of the water.

I do expect some people just won't get the concept of hurting less fish to get the desired harvest which is legal. Have fun this year poking all the fish you can to get your rocks off if that's what fishing is to you!

I use the smallest hooks available at the lodge and bonk every fish that I determine to be terminally injured. I dont touch fish I release, I use a C&R net for every fish I net, and iIm sure this goes without saying but just to clear the air - no I dont take pleasure in harming fish. Thats ******* ridiculous. You appreciate the meathunters? Every meathunter I have on my boat asks the same stupid questions, how much can we keep, whats the biggest we can keep, where can we get the big ones, can u put extra on your licence and give them to us, etc. Its all driven by greed. At least they have somebody who sympathizes with their cause. I always tell guests like that to save themselves the time and money, just go load up at Costco for 1/10th the cost.

It seems to me youre missing the point of fishing entirely. Its about the connection with nature, being on the water, fresh air, clearing your mind, interacting with these beautiful swimming creatures that are only native to our corner of the world, soending time with friends, creating lasting memories and just taking a break from all the stress and ******** associated with the "real world".

If you havent used a net in 30 years, are you gaffing fish? Have you ever gaffed one and it shook off? Surely thats causing more harm than a barbless hook. Is your gaff barbed? Seems having a barbed gaff would slow you down, leading to less fish being damaged! If you havent used a net in 30 years, why include it as part of your case for using barbed hooks?

It seems to me that, boiled-down, your argument is the less time we spend with our gear in the water, the less damage we will do to fish, regardless of whether the hooks are barbed or barbless. Why dont we take it a step further and just keep all the boats at home. Maybe the meathunters can get a massdrop on gillnets or something so they can keep their freezers full.

 

[advTHXance]

Are you saying unless it is in a study nothing is fact.

Im saying that an opinion isnt necessarily fact. Scientific studies take theories and test them, using the results to prove the facts.

Does it have to be on the internet to be real too??

Yah man, definitely, 100%, and thats a fact!

 

[Fishmyster]

I use the smallest hooks available at the lodge and bonk every fish that I determine to be terminally injured. I dont touch fish I release, I use a C&R net for every fish I net, and iIm sure this goes without saying but just to clear the air - no I dont take pleasure in harming fish. Thats ******* ridiculous. You appreciate the meathunters? Every meathunter I have on my boat asks the same stupid questions, how much can we keep, whats the biggest we can keep, where can we get the big ones, can u put extra on your licence and give them to us, etc. Its all driven by greed. At least they have somebody who sympathizes with their cause. I always tell guests like that to save themselves the time and money, just go load up at Costco for 1/10th the cost.

It seems to me youre missing the point of fishing entirely. Its about the connection with nature, being on the water, fresh air, clearing your mind, interacting with these beautiful swimming creatures that are only native to our corner of the world, soending time with friends, creating lasting memories and just taking a break from all the stress and ******** associated with the "real world".

If you havent used a net in 30 years, are you gaffing fish? Have you ever gaffed one and it shook off? Surely thats causing more harm than a barbless hook. Is your gaff barbed? Seems having a barbed gaff would slow you down, leading to less fish being damaged! If you havent used a net in 30 years, why include it as part of your case for using barbed hooks?

It seems to me that, boiled-down, your argument is the less time we spend with our gear in the water, the less damage we will do to fish, regardless of whether the hooks are barbed or barbless. Why dont we take it a step further and just keep all the boats at home. Maybe the meathunters can get a massdrop on gillnets or something so they can keep their freezers full.

You are missing the point of lessening your impact on the incidental catches while continuing to enjoy the fishing. It is also apparent you don't care about any other peoples directive in fishing other than your own. Maybe working at a lodge allows you the attitude because there is someone else doing lots of marketing to keep your boat working. If you advertised your own business and had to accommodate people for what they are looking for in a fishing trip because return business is important your attitude would have to be a little more flexible. Your stereotyping of meat hunters is not accurate for describing the harvest driven fishers I fish with. It is not the cost of the fish driving the harvest it is knowing where your food came from and all the other aspects you mention in regards of time on the water with friends ect. IMO your attitude to harvesters is very shallow and unjustified.

I only stick the gaff into the large fish were aim to keep. You may think they fall off the gaff often and die but that is not the case. Coho and smaller fish just get lifted in. Larger salmon get bonked first then gaffed.

What if the ocean went to all c&r Chinook for conservation. Do you think it would be fair to fish all summer long for with a documented 10% fatality rate??

 

[wildmanyeah]

can u put extra on your licence and give them to us, etc. Its all driven by greed.

Well because apparently it’s common practice, especially if guides don’t limit their clients Their first trip out.

As well as it was pretty common at one point for lodges to keep extra fish in the freezers to send some home with guys.

Had a friend that worked at a dock last summer tell me how common it was for boats to come in with 10 fish with 4 guests on bord. Also was apparently common to rigg guests up with barbed hooks in offshore areas where they know DFO never is and only checks at the docks.

Lots of pressure on guides to produce

 

[advTHXance]

You are missing the point of lessening your impact on the incidental catches while continuing to enjoy the fishing. It is also apparent you don't care about any other peoples directive in fishing other than your own. Maybe working at a lodge allows you the attitude because there is someone else doing lots of marketing to keep your boat working. If you advertised your own business and had to accommodate people for what they are looking for in a fishing trip because return business is important your attitude would have to be a little more flexible. Your stereotyping of meat hunters is not accurate for describing the harvest driven fishers I fish with. It is not the cost of the fish driving the harvest it is knowing where your food came from and all the other aspects you mention in regards of time on the water with friends ect. IMO your attitude to harvesters is very shallow and unjustified.

I only stick the gaff into the large fish were aim to keep. You may think they fall off the gaff often and die but that is not the case. Coho and smaller fish just get lifted in. Larger salmon get bonked first then gaffed.

What if the ocean went to all c&r Chinook for conservation. Do you think it would be fair to fish all summer long for with a documented 10% fatality rate??

Firstly I should apologize because I re-read my earlier post and it maybe came across as snotty but was meant in jest. Anyways-

I dont let my personal views of the fishery and its management get in the way of my job. Im paid to take guests out for a memorable experience and I do my best to deliver, whether they want to fill their freezers or C&R everything. I see both sides of the argument and obviously have chosen my side, as have you. On my personal time I definitely practice what I preach. The lodge I work at is involved in conservation initiatives, has policies in place to ensure a sporting experience, and allows me freedom to fish the way I think is best for the fish and the guests. I could make more money at other lodges but I would likely be sacrificing some of those freedoms. Thats not to say that Im set in my ways and will only fish a certain way, I recognize that the guests are paying large sums of money to come up there and they may have their own ideas and methods and Im always more than happy to accomodate them - within the rules. Different lodges attract different clientele. Many of our guests are on board with conservation initiatives and understand at least on a basic level the threats facing our fish. That obviously makes my job more enjoyable but it doesnt affect how I perform my duties. My lodge manager also pairs guests with guides and he does so with the intent to create the best fit for each group of guests, and I would assume that one factor he considers for the pairings is the guests outlook and expectations for the trip. I always ask my guests what they would like to get out of the trip and if theres anything I can do to make it a memorable experience, so I know their intentions and expectations right from the get-go.

Its one thing to want to harvest clean, wild fish for consumption. I have no issue with that. When I say meathunters, I mean the guys whose only concern is how many? how big? what else can we kill? why cant we keep these there are so many? The guys who only consider the trip a success if they check off every single fish from their grocery list that they can legally retain. The guys who sit at the dinner table and brag that they killed the biggest breeder lingcod on the day. And luckily my lodge doesnt see many guests like that. Some lodges have that reputation, as wildmanyeah says, to load up the freezers so every guests box goes home full. Thats not only immoral, illegal, and just plain stupid, but its a gross abuse of the resource that the whole industry is based on. I have no time for those type of people.

So you gaff all your fish, and you say it doesnt happen often but I assume that means it does happen. Hopefully nowhere near the 10% mort rate of C&R fisheries!

If the ocean went all C&R for chinook with the intention to protect chinook stocks, I would be all for it. Keep in mind along with C&R restrictions there would likely be hook and gear restrictions, possibly area restrictions, mandated release methods, etc. And no I wouldnt feel bad about a 10% mort rate. Im sure the number of meathunters that would sell their boats and pout would far outweigh the impact of C&R mortalities. And imagine all the fish that would be spared from nets and commercial trollers! How soon can we get this C&R thing started?

 

[advTHXance]

Well because apparently it’s common practice, especially if guides don’t limit their clients Their first trip out.

As well as it was pretty common at one point for lodges to keep extra fish in the freezers to send some home with guys.

Had a friend that worked at a dock last summer tell me how common it was for boats to come in with 10 fish with 4 guests on bord. Also was apparently common to rigg guests up with barbed hooks in offshore areas where they know DFO never is and only checks at the docks.

Lots of pressure on guides to produce

A boat can come in with 10 fish and 4 guests on board as long as the guide writes 2 on his licence. You see it all the time on guides social media... 2 guys holding 3 halibut, 2 guys holding 5 or 6 chinooks. The problem arises when on some pages you see 2 guys with 3 halibuts more than 6 times in a year. Every recordable fish that enters my boat (personal or work) gets written on a licence. If my guests are tubbed for the day, usually we will go do something else. If they have 1 spot open and we hook an 8lber in the eye, sucks for them but thats their limit.

 

[Fishmyster]

I said I only gaff the big ones. Not all the salmon. Maybe one a year falls off but less than I used to loose with a net.

We do have a different moral outlook on fishing here. I feel C&R all day with 10% fatality is far less ethical than catch two or what your allowed and leave the rest alone. Total c&r would be breaking the law of, "it is illeagal to waist fish that is suitable for human consumption" as fatally wounded fish would all be discarded back to the sea. Ethical to some but not me. It would be more reasonable to allow a harvest and quit fishing when the moral decision to keep bleeders has occurred. Each to their own though.

 

[tubber]

You two have lots in common, both being accomplished fishers who care about the resource.
I've seen Fishmyster and his guests catch 4 or 6 and bug out for halibut before I even got a bite. I've also seen him hook 8 0r so and keep fishing because inexperienced or less mobile guests lost most of them, which has to be frustrating and part of the experience that lead to his stance.
I've bragged on here about our boat releasing lots during the pilchard years at Starfish. I'd switch species now, I hope.
I'm still going to shake pinks and 4 lb cohoes if I ever get back to Big Bank, so barbless makes sense to me for that. Plus I had a stinger hook all the way through a finger once. It happened to be a full barbless (not pinched), so it came out fairly well once I released the small halibut from the front hook.

 

[The Jackel]

Ok have you guys figured out who's dick is bigger and can we get this thread back on track

 

[advTHXance]

I dont think it ever got off topic really, but yah Im done saying what I wanted to say (and then some)

 

[advTHXance]

And mine must be big, my boats tiny.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Good discussion as far as im concerned, these are the kind that need to happen around the table more often. Good points on both side of the argument from very good fishermen.

I did read in a goverment paper some where that they referred to C&R fisheries as purely economic fisheries and retention fisheries as substance fisheries.