B.C. Premier Clark, Alberta Premier Redford reach deal on pipelines

[Klob]

Settle down boys. Nuthin is going to happen unless it gets the green light from the Natives. Ironicaly they may be the only ones that can save us. The pipes don't concern me as much as where these idiots want to ship it overseas from. Some of the worst navigatable waters in the world.

 

[Dennis.t]

I hear you but refining should stay in Alberta or else as you said in an area like North were it makes sense, but more importantly in Canada were it belongs. This is just a form of outsourcing just like raw logs. Why can't we refine or natural resources and refine it here? We all have so used to our government outsourcing everything I think we are all brainwashed. Keep Canada jobs here not in China. Not to mention the Chinese need to address there own energy crisis. They pollute way to much.

I hate to say it but we are all guilty. All of our manufacturing jobs went there with the support of our country and the voters over the years. Every manufacturing plant mostly outsourced there. We pushed for cheaper goods . We wanted it shipped faster/more volume/cheaper labor. China responded and now needs more energy to support those plants/freighters based on north American consumer demand.

While everyone was fighting about these pipelines the chinese slipped underneath the radar and bought up a lot of interests in Fort McMurray companies That means if our government backs out we will be on the hook for millions to the Chinese in lawsuits. You can blame your prime minister for that one, and BC is finally falling inline.

I agree,we should be refining our own oil instead of sending it elsewhere. That's not going to happen, just a matter of time before these projects get the green light. A lot of refineries in Texas have already retrofitted to be able to handle Canadas heavy crude. Harper and Obama want these pipelines, just trying to figure out, how they going to get around the Natives and environmental groups with the least amount of fanfare.

 

[TobyDexter]

Well the natives are going to recieve a huge amount of cash and that will be it. The resources in this province are already accounted for by other countries. The pipelines are a go for sure and so is site C. Complain all we want but it isnt changing. The grown ups dont give a **** about our coastline. The deal is done.

 

[agentaqua]

Well the natives are going to recieve a huge amount of cash and that will be it. The resources in this province are already accounted for by other countries. The pipelines are a go for sure and so is site C. Complain all we want but it isnt changing. The grown ups dont give a **** about our coastline. The deal is done.

The "deal" was done in Harper's office along with Mike Duffy's cheques. However, the Enbridge manilla envelope pay-off was some years before Mike got his. Back in 2008, they were updating the proposed tanker route by echosounding with a towed array with the Otter Point. It would be interesting to see if Harper or his wife has a stock portfolio with oil or Chinese oil in it. I'm pretty sure he has - along with Joe Oliver. Since Joe has already proven himself disposable wrt many of the pro-Enbridge comments already - I predict Harper has him lined-up to deliver the bad news and take the fall - that is - IF Harper (definitely NOT a "grown-up") survives this Duffy (not a grown-up either) affair. I predict that the JPR will give Enbridge a thumbs-down; while the cabinet (read the PMO) will over-ride that decision. Then the game will be on. Yes, Enbridge has been trying for years to exploit any chinks in the FN armor over their solidarity against Enbridge. They almost found a chink in the Gitxsan armor, but that guy was let go and then found employment with corporate-friendly Prince Rupert Harbour Authority. If anything the Chinese have cursed us: "May you live in interesting times...".

 

[Gunsmith]

Don't blame only the grown ups, this demand for fossil fuels is driven by everybody that pulls up to the pumps or heats their house with natural gas, or turns on a light switch.

Well the natives are going to recieve a huge amount of cash and that will be it. The resources in this province are already accounted for by other countries. The pipelines are a go for sure and so is site C. Complain all we want but it isnt changing. The grown ups dont give a **** about our coastline. The deal is done.

 

[GDW]

I think we knew all along Clark was grandstanding saying no to the pipeline so she could later say yes - but look at the great deal I negotiated for BC.

I'm sure Redford knew the game was for BC to say no for awhile, Alberta to increase the offer and make it appear they made concessions then BC says yes. I predicted that long ago. It's all part of the game and government knows Canadians don't have the balls to do what it takes to make the corruption stop.

We are all frogs in a pot of water and we are quite happy to sit here while the temperature slowly rises.

 

[Englishman]

Actually it will provide jobs. Currently the pipeline capacity from Fort Mac is maxed out. This will slow down the construction projects unless these new pipelines (Kinder Morgan, Gateway, Keystone) get built increasing pipeline capacity. The new and expanding plants keep increasing bitumen production and desperately need increased pipeline capacity. Its true Upgraders will not get built,not including the North West Upgrader which just recently broke ground after being stalled for a last few yrs due to cost concerns. Upgraders are expensive to build as its more economically viable for the big players to ramp up oil production and send it elsewhere for refining.

Actually it provide only about 50 full time jobs in BC The rest will go to Alberta and itinerate jobs duing the construction phase. And overall far more jobs will be lost in BC when that tanker inevitiably goes aground in January/Feb in Douglas Channel or just outside. Lunatic and short sighted proposal that will never get built.

 

[Englishman]

Well the natives are going to recieve a huge amount of cash and that will be it. The resources in this province are already accounted for by other countries. The pipelines are a go for sure and so is site C. Complain all we want but it isnt changing. The grown ups dont give a **** about our coastline. The deal is done.

A few of the First Nations may be bought. There are always some people in any culture who would sell their soul, or worse! However, not all of them will and because of those with honour and principles this idiotic and destructive Northern gateway pipeline will never be built!

 

[Englishman]

Don't blame only the grown ups, this demand for fossil fuels is driven by everybody that pulls up to the pumps or heats their house with natural gas, or turns on a light switch.

Gunsmith you know better than I do that Northern gateway has absolutely nothing to do with gas for Canadians boats or vehicles. It is to ship energy to China and nothing else. The IPCC comes out with its latest report which ups the ante even further on climate change and Harper and Co still want to develop the hell out of the tar sands for money. And the huge irony is all the lovely money is being stolen from our future and the future of our children because the massive environmental costs caused by climate change and the resultant coastal flooding will be borne by them. And those costs will be outweigh any money we make now.
If you make a pact with the "devil" the bill becomes due eventually, even if we (and you) do not get to pay it.

 

[Englishman]

Settle down boys. Nuthin is going to happen unless it gets the green light from the Natives. Ironicaly they may be the only ones that can save us. The pipes don't concern me as much as where these idiots want to ship it overseas from. Some of the worst navigatable waters in the world.

Right on Klob. The First Nations are the "Ace in the Hole" that Harper can only trump with troops and even a fundamentalist like him would not go that far......or would he?

 

[Gunsmith]

If you went into the stock market and read up on where pipelines are being built, what is being shipped and to where you would realize that is not so. Anytime you buy any of these products anywhere you are part of that system. The USA is producing oil like a mad hatter. You decrease the internal demand so there is a glut of oil where do you think that extra oil is going to go? The USA alone has cut back on their needs for coal so where does the extra go, Bingo! China or Japan. If we completely stopped using oil there would be a glut and instead of our oil going to China thriugh Gateway, ( which I do not like) the Usa will sell them the extra oil they have, because they are more money hungry than we are.
Remember you are sitting in harms way right now because Japan used nuclear power instead of coal or gas power.
The problem is that it may not go through BC to get there but it will get there and you will still be recipient of the harm caused. In my thoughts, do not even think for a minute that because you are not buying Tarsands products that you are avoiding this as you are part of a market that you have no control of due to your refusal to stop using fossil products, and I mean any petroleum product.

Gunsmith you know better than I do that Northern gateway has absolutely nothing to do with gas for Canadians boats or vehicles. It is to ship energy to China and nothing else. The IPCC comes out with its latest report which ups the ante even further on climate change and Harper and Co still want to develop the hell out of the tar sands for money. And the huge irony is all the lovely money is being stolen from our future and the future of our children because the massive environmental costs caused by climate change and the resultant coastal flooding will be borne by them. And those costs will be outweigh any money we make now.
If you make a pact with the "devil" the bill becomes due eventually, even if we (and you) do not get to pay it.

 

[Dennis.t]

Actually it provide only about 50 full time jobs in BC The rest will go to Alberta and itinerate jobs duing the construction phase. And overall far more jobs will be lost in BC when that tanker inevitiably goes aground in January/Feb in Douglas Channel or just outside. Lunatic and short sighted proposal that will never get built.

Im talking about construction jobs in Fort Mac. Increased pipeline capacity, more new plant construction and existing plant expansion projects to fill the increased pipeline capacity with black gold.

 

[Gunsmith]

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/edmonton/greenhouse-gas-reduction-called-threat-to-oil-industry-2
This will for sure make some heads turn.

 

[chris73]

Gunsmith you know better than I do that Northern gateway has absolutely nothing to do with gas for Canadians boats or vehicles. It is to ship energy to China and nothing else. The IPCC comes out with its latest report which ups the ante even further on climate change and Harper and Co still want to develop the hell out of the tar sands for money. And the huge irony is all the lovely money is being stolen from our future and the future of our children because the massive environmental costs caused by climate change and the resultant coastal flooding will be borne by them. And those costs will be outweigh any money we make now.
If you make a pact with the "devil" the bill becomes due eventually, even if we (and you) do not get to pay it.

You are waaayyy to wise for this world, English! Lightyears ahead of our time - if such time ever comes! Totally agree but am afraid that mankind is not smart enough to think and act that way. We are mortals and as such we only care what consequence we personally face. We couldn't care less what comes after us as long as we can gain just a little more in our lifetime. Perfectly reflected in politics - you care for your 4 year term and care for all the gains you can achieve within and after that - who cares!

With that, Gunsmith is right, the oil will flow and be burnt one way or another, question is only if it will flow through northern BC and spill on our coast versus somewhere else. We may be able to dodge the local effects for now but we WILL GET global effects nontheless...

 

[Andrew P]

With that, Gunsmith is right, the oil will flow and be burnt one way or another, question is only if it will flow through northern BC and spill on our coast versus somewhere else. We may be able to dodge the local effects for now but we WILL GET global effects nontheless...

The other very large question is how fast will the development happen and the 'black gold' flow. The slower this happens, the more developed the technology will become and environmental consequences will be relatively less than the current model of getting the oil out of the ground as fast as possible and consider the consequences later. An example from the industry in Gunsmiths link concurring: - "Will higher stringency requirements [oil and gas regulations] deliver greater GHG reductions? Unlikely. The challenge with the oil sands is that current technology is not yet available for deployment."

So put the fricken breaks on!

This won't happen though; the way that the industry works now is so bothersome to me because it is international oil companies and the baby boomers in Alberta that are profiting the most from this, and Canada and BC will be picking up the tab long term. It is so obvious that Harper and his other Calgary baby boomer buddies have literally high-jacked Canada and shaping things for their own personal interests.

My wife is from Calgary and many in her family are in oil and gas. You can imagine the debates that have ensued over the years. The latest was on fracking, which they see no risk in just as there is no problem with plowing through the Boreal forest as quickly as humans can. All that I have spoken too do agree that it is the baby boomer generation pushing this through for the sake of their retirement funds.

I don't want to stereo type British Columbians and Albertans, but it is hard not to when the general opinions that I hear are so different across the borders. I feel there is a gross underestimation of just how strongly BC folk feel about this issue. They think we are a bunch of crazy hippies....and well, we are, and crazy hippies have made real change in the world. Caution.

 

[Gunsmith]

Exactly, that is the problem! Every path taken has risks. Our ability to do effective damage control in this area is actually zero. Just look at the problems In Japan right now over damage to a nuclear facility during the earthquake, how would a pipeline fare? What about a landslide?

So there is no problem with expanding tankers and oil pipelines in an earthquake zone they may get a major quake next 50 years? That one scares me the most. That is the what if. A couple of pipeline leaks and our river systems could be gone on the coast in the event of a major earthquake...

 

[sammyslabber]

Exactly, that is the problem! Every path taken has risks. Our ability to do effective damage control in this area is actually zero. Just look at the problems In Japan right now over damage to a nuclear facility during the earthquake, how would a pipeline fare? What about a landslide?

Nuclear power...done right it's clean and effective, subs use it...perhaps it's time to put the fuel rods to a more peaceful use.

 

[Gunsmith]

I read an article a while ago about nuclear power, and smaller is better, more manageable in disaster situations.

 

[sammyslabber]

I read an article a while ago about nuclear power, and smaller is better, more manageable in disaster situations.

yes it makes more sense than selling dirty fossil fuel to polluters i.e. China - who seemingly are only too happy sell us back their crap. Can we teach an old dog - new tricks...yes we Candu it...

 

[Englishman]

If you went into the stock market and read up on where pipelines are being built, what is being shipped and to where you would realize that is not so. Anytime you buy any of these products anywhere you are part of that system. The USA is producing oil like a mad hatter. You decrease the internal demand so there is a glut of oil where do you think that extra oil is going to go? The USA alone has cut back on their needs for coal so where does the extra go, Bingo! China or Japan. If we completely stopped using oil there would be a glut and instead of our oil going to China thriugh Gateway, ( which I do not like) the Usa will sell them the extra oil they have, because they are more money hungry than we are.
Remember you are sitting in harms way right now because Japan used nuclear power instead of coal or gas power.
The problem is that it may not go through BC to get there but it will get there and you will still be recipient of the harm caused. In my thoughts, do not even think for a minute that because you are not buying Tarsands products that you are avoiding this as you are part of a market that you have no control of due to your refusal to stop using fossil products, and I mean any petroleum product.

1. Gunsmith, I do not buy the argument that because we Canadians currently buy petroleum products we have to build a pipeline to supply China. That is a complete non sequitur.
2. Nor do I believe we as BC citizens are helpless and hopeless prisoners of “the market” as though the market is some kind of out of control runaway monster that devours all in its path.
3. Markets and economics are human inventions. They are meant to serve our needs. We can alter and manipulate them any way we want.
4. The idea that if we won’t do it the American will, I find reprehensible. That is a race to the bottom and an excuse for any and all unethical or immoral behaviour. Civilisation was not built that way.
5. The Americans are not stupid. They know they will be hit by climate change too. They already are and they also know what is coming will make Katrina look like a fall shower. That is part of the reason to the opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline.
6. What we need in N. America is glut of oil so the price goes down and we can also buy time to start moving off our oil addiction, which obviously will take a long time and cannot be done overnight.
7. Nuclear may or may not be part of the transition off oil. I don’t know. And yes everything has risk. The thing is climate change is not a “risk” it is certainty. As are shipping accidents and pipeline leaks. There have been hundreds documented in Enbridge’s pipeline alone.
8. Down in the States again they are doing a lot with solar and wind power in Arizona and Nevada. The equivalent of 6 gallons of gasoline energy falls on an area the size of a tennis court every hour down there. I saw a TV documentary which said 10% of the Federal lands in Nevada covered with solar generation capability could supply the entire energy needs of the U.S. So away with the hand wringing and sobs of despair that we can do nothing against the almighty market god. We can do anything we want.