Are we losing what makes B.C. special?

[agentaqua]

...the underlying cause is population growth so government can only slow down the damage done but not stop it.

But nobody is ready to face that reality yet, as far as I can tell.

Absolutely to both!

No immigration = population reduction. Population reduction = no housing shortages and reduction in consumption. No housing shortages and reduction in consumption = less $ kick backs by real estate companies and industry to parties and government.

Government/parties - as they are currently constructed - do not represent the electorate and are corrupt from the top-end down. There are options as to how they are set-up and in what checks and balances we - as the "represented" need. That is what really scares those who wish to control - the electorate taking charge and substantially changing how we are governed...

 

[OnTick]

Absolutely to both!

No immigration = population reduction. Population reduction = no housing shortages and reduction in consumption. No housing shortages and reduction in consumption = less $ kick backs by real estate companies and industry to parties and government.

Government/parties - as they are currently constructed - do not represent the electorate and are corrupt from the top-end down. There are options as to how they are set-up and in what checks and balances we - as the "represented" need. That is what really scares those who wish to control - the electorate taking charge and substantially changing how we are governed...

That's the world wide trend going on now. Problem is the "outsiders" stepping up aren't the best people for the job. They are just the only choice. Hence Brexit and Trump over Rotten Clinton.

 

[Birdsnest]

This topic is getting interesting. Population? Sadly in Canada and most developed countries economies are based on growth. The modern family in the developed world is smaller or non existent. Countries like ours benefit from immigration for many reason that are generally only economic.
The biggest single negative effect on developed societies has been birth control. Those who are educated with lowish and up incomes are not having kids. Where you find poverty and a lack of education the birthrate is much higher even in Canada and the US.
If you ask me, and it won't happen while I am alive, the days of the "all canadian" like "all american" will come to an end. Our Culture is dying.

 

[OnTick]

Immigration is a great thing and is necessary. At the rate your average western family reproduces, growth is unsustainable without it.

The problem lays with Liberal Progressive Politicians using it to build voter bases.

Apparently they "care". Nah, they don't. Not about anything but relegating sections of the population to being slaves through welfare and offering up a BS dream of "equality".

 

[agentaqua]

Immigration is a great thing and is necessary. At the rate your average western family reproduces, growth is unsustainable without it.

The problem lays with Liberal Progressive Politicians using it to build voter bases.

Apparently they "care". Nah, they don't. Not about anything but relegating sections of the population to being slaves through welfare and offering up a BS dream of "equality".

Immigration may be great for those immigrating - but how is global population growth "sustainable" irrespective of immigration to any one country? We only have the 1 planet - and it isn't growing....

 

[OnTick]

Yea that's a fair call AA and I agree. But it's a view that doesn't take into account reality. The only way forward is science.

We have a system now that needs growth or it implodes. It affords most of us with a lifestyle we have become accustom to.

How would the population control come about? Who's grand kids are being decided will not be given a chance to exist? Who decides that?

To go down the track your talking about needs a reset and that will not be pretty for anyone involved. In fact, I'm sure the reset is coming because of the loss of confidence in the system. It just may be the reset we would need and more than likely cause the population control your saying is needed.

 

[agentaqua]

I think you are right OnTick - there is a "reset" coming - and it won't be "pretty". We've had the luxury of new slaves that have allowed the human population to explode - hydrocarbon molecules and electrons. The hydrocarbon molecules have always been in limited supply - and are running out. What then? A big reset is coming...

 

[OnTick]

That's a topic I have no educated opinion on.

The reason I kinda shake my head at the Climate Change crowd is our reset most likely won't come from the climate or nature, it's coming from the economy and political change. You can almost smell it in the air now. That has happened so many times throughout history, and that definitely isn't pretty.

 

[agentaqua]

This topic is getting interesting. Population? Sadly in Canada and most developed countries economies are based on growth. The modern family in the developed world is smaller or non existent. Countries like ours benefit from immigration for many reason that are generally only economic.
The biggest single negative effect on developed societies has been birth control. Those who are educated with lowish and up incomes are not having kids. Where you find poverty and a lack of education the birthrate is much higher even in Canada and the US.
If you ask me, and it won't happen while I am alive, the days of the "all canadian" like "all american" will come to an end. Our Culture is dying.

Not sure why you would characterize birth control as a "negative effect", BN. Where birth control is practiced - there is a reduction in crime - to name but one positive aspect.

I think the problem instead is the focus on the economy and "making money" aka greed. Nothing wrong with - in and of itself - "making money". The problem is that some people convince themselves that is the reason we are alive and aware on this planet - and they want no constrictions as to how they make money - and they externalize everything else onto the environment and add to poverty.

Don't forget that "economics" is only a theory (and NOT a religion) - and a largely unsupported theory at that - looking at the history of stock market crashes, bank failures and impacts to the environment. Greed is also not governance.

Blind faith is however - what some people consider religion. We need a new hymnbook...

 

[OnTick]

BUT! I haven't been fishing here in this country near as much as most you guys, but we are having the best year since I've started.
What else ya going to do but enjoy **** like that now?!

 

[agentaqua]

That's a topic I have no educated opinion on.

The reason I kinda shake my head at the Climate Change crowd is our reset most likely won't come from the climate or nature, it's coming from the economy and political change. You can almost smell it in the air now. That has happened so many times throughout history, and that definitely isn't pretty.

The "reset" comes from people, OnTick... - wars and disease have been the quickest way to reduce human population...

 

[Birdsnest]

Not sure why you would characterize birth control as a "negative effect", BN. Where birth control is practiced - there is a reduction in crime - to name but one positive aspect.

I agree and it goes along with the point I was making and some of the problems we could soon be facing. The big RESET.

 

[OnTick]

H

The "reset" comes from people, OnTick... - wars and disease have been the quickest way to reduce human population...

Too many people don't recognise the fact that those two things happen more in countries that don't have good economies. Its THE major cause of regression of science and stability.

Ie: when people ***** and complain about the fossil fuel industry and where/how they mine/ship the product, take a step back and ask if this is actually a good thing for everything they are complaining they want more of.

 

[agentaqua]

Too many people don't recognise the fact that those two things happen more in countries that don't have good economies. Its THE major cause of regression of science and stability.

Ie: when people ***** and complain about the fossil fuel industry and where/how they mine/ship the product, take a step back and ask if this is actually a good thing for everything they are complaining they want more of.

I think it actually happens where the promised "trickle-down" doesn't happen - where people don't have opportunity and nothing to loose. I think everyone recognizes the integration and need for fossil fuels, OnTick - but arguments about climate change aside - we will run out of fossil fuels. What then?

 

[OnTick]

When you take the reality of our situation in account. Trickle down is the only thing that works. The situation is that if we go after big money, they pack up and move. If you want to stop that, your heading dangerously into the path of communism.
Fossil fuels will last us easily the next few generations. With supporting them, we will indirectly support next technology that will be the next natural step.

 

[agentaqua]

When you take the reality of our situation in account. Trickle down is the only thing that works. The situation is that if we go after big money, they pack up and move. If you want to stop that, your heading dangerously into the path of communism.
Fossil fuels will last us easily the next few generations. With supporting them, we will indirectly support next technology that will be the next natural step.

With respect, OnTick - "trickle-down" doesn't work. It never has. It is a lie designed to placate those who wish to believe in a Reganomics view of economics. See:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/21/offshore-wealth-global-economy-tax-havens
http://www.faireconomy.org/trickle_down_economics_four_reasons

 

[OnTick]

It never has?

Please tell me then, what brought about the great society/culture that is the West?

Also, tell me, what has been the overall cause of the demise of once flourishing capitalistic cultures in the past?

 

[agentaqua]

It never has?

Please tell me then, what brought about the great society/culture that is the West?

Guns, germs and steel...

 

[OnTick]

And a strong sense of free market capitalism.

You didn't answer the second part. What has been the main contributor of the demise of dominant cultures in the past?

At the present time we have two options in which to run a country. One is with a sense of free market capitalism and the other ends up with an all powerful government dictating to the people ie, forms of communism.

Being at the heart of the issue, these are the only two options available. Which one seems to work better?

 

[agentaqua]

And a strong sense of free market capitalism.

You didn't answer the second part. What has been the main contributor of the demise of dominant cultures in the past?

At the present time we have two options in which to run a country. One is with a sense of free market capitalism and the other ends up with an all powerful government dictating to the people ie, forms of communism. Being at the heart of the issue, these are the only two options available. Which one seems to work better?

1. Firstly OT, thank you for our respectful, thoughtful posts thus far.
2. Secondly, I hope we are not straying too far off topic, but onwards..
3. Thirdly, if you follow the links above (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/21/offshore-wealth-global-economy-tax-havens
   http://www.faireconomy.org/trickle_down_economics_four_reasons) - you can see analysis presented using the metrics of economic theory that do not support the assertion that trickle-down economics work,
4. Fourthly, as I wrote on another post: Some species similar enough to be called human (**** something) has been wandering the planet for some ~2 million years, and H. erectus for ~200,000-600,000 years or so. It's only been the last 300-450 years we have had something like a "consumer economy" based on world trade - where the first stock exchange in London was officially formed in 1773 (colonialism started around the 900s onwards wrt European colonialism, ~800-500BCE wrt Roman colonialism, and ~7250-28ooBCE wrt Greek). So we have only had this large, betting casino available for some 243 years or less. For the remainder of the better than 99.9% of the history of human civilization - it never existed. Yet, somehow - humans both survived and prospered. So - using historical timelines - "capitalism" is NOT responsible for "Western Civilization". Greed is unfortunately a common aspect of humans that was not invented by capitalism. Some societies/governance mechanisms have been developed that have mitigated that previously unchecked greed.
   
5. Fifthly, I reject your assertion that we only have 2 choices and that 1 of those choices (capitalism) is in fact a governance model. It is NOT. It may be associated with modern economic colonialism - and intimidation/subjugation/exploitation/domination/corruption - but it is most definitely *NOT* governance. We have many choices wrt governance models - and a consensus-based one is the one that has a track record of sustainability. http://www.goodgovernance.org.au/about-good-governance/what-is-good-governance/
   
6. Sixth, I believe the main contributor of the demise of many dominant cultures in the past is most often conquest - often associated with disease and interbreeding with the conquerors. The conquest wrt early European subjugation, and subsequent colonial institution of governance was substantially assisted through guns, germs and steel - not capitalism which didn't even exist at the time of the early contacts, IMHO.
   
7. Lastly, governance is not a static process, and we should not be lulled into complacency assuming we can't change it.