Aquaculture; improving????

Try being on the other side of the argument and see what happens
Then you Post...
"I think you need to take your nitro fogged in
Or go protect your goldstream babies "

Your posts often baffle me!!
Have you ever been warned by ADMIN for supporting or apposing Fish Farms???
Enough of this nonsense before Admin closes down this valuable Thread!!
 
"Republic of Western Canada", Stephen?

- I think you instead mean Treaties 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 PLUS unceded Territory of about another 100 FNs - right?
1024px-Numbered-Treaties-Map.svg.png


**** off. Hard no.
 
Only person here wanting things shut down is u, shut down the herring fishery, shut down fish farm.

Anything you want left open?
my next post on this thread will be regarding Fish Farms and if I have anything worth talking about re the Herring Fishery, it will be on the Herring thread.
I will leave this non sense to you
 
Are you guys trying to get this thread shut down.
What's with all the election stuff?
Sg i believe is generally AA (anti aquaculter-salmon)
I feel that at the same time it's probably a reasonable perspective that is not a bad idea for sport fishing and salmon farming to get cozy with each other for they are going to suffer the same penalties in the near future. Both are industries, both are vulnerable to the same political directions.
 
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Its looking like this thread is heading towards redundancy given the Libs mandate and election promise to close down FF. The Turd always comes through on his election promises.
 
Back to the FF issue. So, I watched the video from the banned thread about Vivian Krause. I have been to a lecture of hers and met her. She is not a tin foil hat crazy but a researcher, and a real "dogooder" (I didn't build houses for the poor in third world countries). What is terribly disturbing, sorry admins for linking it, is that the overarching campaigns against FF's, LNG, TMX, Northern Gateway, Tarsands,...etc, all have deployed the same tactics and been funded by the same groups. Yes, Jason Kenney has also determined this is real and becoming an existential threat.

When I joined this forum, I really wanted to know why Alaskan ranching gets a free pass? Why did they have record returns and we didn't? All I get is FF's are bad, if we shut them down, salmon will heal. I don't have a dog in this fight, but that seems very over simplified and likely to fail. In fact, none of the anti-FF advocates will guarantee success or agree to spend tax dollars to do this. Looking through these past threads, it seems we can have big returns in the presence of FF's on any given year, so maybe that isn't the boogeyman.

Alaska had record returns this year and are harvesting more "ranched" salmon than in their record years of wild salmon. Think about it, our runs are in trouble, they are harvesting over 2x what their very best years were before salmon ranching was introduced. How much can the system hold? Are we good if they go to 4x or 10x? They just keep going for more and the groups supporting them are sending money to the anti-FF lobby in Canada. Not accusing any of you as being part of the lobby, but if all we do is focus on what they tell us too, we will all be sitting in our boats with our fingers up our butts talking about the good old days when we fished for salmon.
 
are there problems with overstocking of the Pacific? Yes.

However, it's not an equivalent substitute as fish farming for the Atlantic salmon market for what should be rather obvious reasons:
1/ They use wild broodstock from adjacent watersheds to stock the pens - which means they shouldn't be introducing exotic & novel diseases to naive stocks unlike eggs imported from iceland,
2/ They are only kept there for a few weeks and are smolts - so it's not the same as having market-sized fish that are there throughout the smolt outmigration for like 18 months with perennial stages of things like sea lice on them that would be expected to export their lice as free-swimming naupilar stages.
3/ Issues around evolution of virulence and transfer of fish diseases w the FF open net-cage operations - see past links about that.

Also not seeing where that Krause narrative video had anything to do w FF - that's quite a stretch.

I find FF pundits are always trying to confuse the issues to avoid accountability as to their impacts.
 
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I question point one ... you are the link master, please show where Alaska uses wild broodstock from adjacent watersheds for their ranched salmon. Using fish from different watersheds would be a recipe for disaster.
Point three is of course speculation as their are no known transfers of disease from farmed to wild salmon in BC.
 
are there problems with overstocking of the Pacific? Yes.

However, it's not an equivalent substitute as fish farming for the Atlantic salmon market for what should be rather obvious reasons:
1/ They use wild broodstock from adjacent watersheds to stock the pens - which means they shouldn't be introducing exotic & novel diseases to naive stocks unlike eggs imported from iceland,
2/ They are only kept there for a few weeks and are smolts - so it's not the same as having market-sized fish that are there throughout the smolt outmigration for like 18 months with perennial stages of things like sea lice on them that would be expected to export their lice as free-swimming naupilar stages.
3/ Issues around evolution of virulence and transfer of fish diseases w the FF open net-cage operations - see past links about that.

Also not seeing where that Krause narrative video had anything to do w FF - that's quite a stretch.

I find FF pundits are always trying to confuse the issues to avoid accountability as to their impacts.
If you watched the video, you will see how she started in the FF industry and was surprised at the David Suzuki Foundation's anti-FF propaganda campaign. All of her advocacy came from working in the salmon farming industry. You need to watch the whole video.

I am not trying to obviscate or deflect from the FF issues. But, it feels like if we ban a plastic straw in Regina, somehow the ocean plastic problem will be solved. There is another thread running on the herring fishery problem, my guess is this is way more connected to ranching than anything to do with FF's. Not arguing that the fish ranching industry isn't using wild salmon stocks, but that they are flooding the system with too much. They will crash the ecosystems supporting their greed, and they keep us distracted. At the very least AA, shouldn't you be concerned about ranching equally as much?
 
No admitted transfers of disease (ISAv) from farmed to wild salmon in BC - except for PRv. Both PRv and ISAv (posted evidence of that in previous posts) are European origin. Wonder how that happened? What is the most plausible answer to that question?

Alaska ranching see: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/r.../fisheriesboard/pdfs/2018-2019/ws/SP18-12.pdf

Ranching - good Segway Stephen: Regulators in NWT and Alberta responsibly adopt the anthrax, tuberculosis, & brucellosis disease risk reduction strategies of separating bison and domesticated cattle by exclusion zones - which can't be accomplished using open net-cage technology in the ocean: where even the water moves. See:

www.enr.gov.nt.ca/sites/enr/files/file_report_146_file_0.pdf
www.americanbisonsocietyonline.org/Portals/7/abs-wp3-web.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d9b5/013cd73fee7b920205a6308fb1ce772d1ed2.pdf
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/wood_bison_management_strategy.pdf
http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/...Disease-WoodBison-WoodBuffNatPark-Feb2011.pdf
http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/...gDisease-WoodBison-ProgressReport-Jun2011.pdf
http://www.wildlifeaccidents.ca/docs/mangaginginfectionriskmitchell.pdf
http://www.mountainecology.org/IBEX7/pdf/disease management.pdf
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/risk_assessment_bison.pdf
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2006/Garde risks FINAL.pdf
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...sessment domestic sheep goats Dall sheep NWT"
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/186_manuscript.pdf
http://www.ccwhc.ca/wildlife_health_topics/risk_analysis/era_step1.php
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/wldhealth/BC_CWD_RiskAssess061008.pdf
http://server2.icav.up.pt/EXPL/CVT-LIV/1400/2012/[11]_Morner et al. 2002.PDF

Which leads to debunking more lies from the company spokesman with Northern Harvest Sea Farms 1st lied and described the FF effluent as “natural” and only “pigments” – but maybe ask these people what a cloud of infective particles from millions of diseased farmed salmon could do - especially to adjacent wild stocks:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/rp-pr/parr-prra/projects-projets/2014-m-01-eng.html

Supposedly, this company should already of had a very good idea of what water quality to expect within Fortune Bay - that DFO and the industry supported a project on behalf of the farmers so they would know these things: http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/rp-pr/acrdp-pcrda/projects-projets/15-1-N-02-eng.html
 
No admitted transfers of disease (ISAv) from farmed to wild salmon in BC - except for PRv. Both PRv and ISAv (posted evidence of that in previous posts) are European origin. Wonder how that happened? What is the most plausible answer to that question?

Alaska ranching see: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/r.../fisheriesboard/pdfs/2018-2019/ws/SP18-12.pdf

Ranching - good Segway Stephen: Regulators in NWT and Alberta responsibly adopt the anthrax, tuberculosis, & brucellosis disease risk reduction strategies of separating bison and domesticated cattle by exclusion zones - which can't be accomplished using open net-cage technology in the ocean: where even the water moves. See:

www.enr.gov.nt.ca/sites/enr/files/file_report_146_file_0.pdf
www.americanbisonsocietyonline.org/Portals/7/abs-wp3-web.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d9b5/013cd73fee7b920205a6308fb1ce772d1ed2.pdf
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/wood_bison_management_strategy.pdf
http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/...Disease-WoodBison-WoodBuffNatPark-Feb2011.pdf
http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/...gDisease-WoodBison-ProgressReport-Jun2011.pdf
http://www.wildlifeaccidents.ca/docs/mangaginginfectionriskmitchell.pdf
http://www.mountainecology.org/IBEX7/pdf/disease management.pdf
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/risk_assessment_bison.pdf
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2006/Garde risks FINAL.pdf
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...sessment domestic sheep goats Dall sheep NWT"
http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/documents/content/186_manuscript.pdf
http://www.ccwhc.ca/wildlife_health_topics/risk_analysis/era_step1.php
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/wldhealth/BC_CWD_RiskAssess061008.pdf
http://server2.icav.up.pt/EXPL/CVT-LIV/1400/2012/[11]_Morner et al. 2002.PDF

Which leads to debunking more lies from the company spokesman with Northern Harvest Sea Farms 1st lied and described the FF effluent as “natural” and only “pigments” – but maybe ask these people what a cloud of infective particles from millions of diseased farmed salmon could do - especially to adjacent wild stocks:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/rp-pr/parr-prra/projects-projets/2014-m-01-eng.html

Supposedly, this company should already of had a very good idea of what water quality to expect within Fortune Bay - that DFO and the industry supported a project on behalf of the farmers so they would know these things: http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/rp-pr/acrdp-pcrda/projects-projets/15-1-N-02-eng.html

Man - you are going for a record with your links. Where do you find the time? Looked at one of them on Alaskan ranching. Lots of reason for concern (page 51).

AA, this isn't a segway but I guess in summary - you are for as much salmon ranching as Alaska wants - move along nothing to be discussed. You have no concern on the impacts to the underlying ecosystem, and if we ban salmon farms everything will be okay in BC. Fair enough, I think I understand your position. Maybe I should start another thread asking this question about salmon ranching and you won't have to be bothered.
 
I'm used to the stalling and denying by the industry and the government industries, Stephen. Heard the lies before - isn't too hard to be prepped. Thanks for caring tho - and you are welcome for providing you & the rest of the forum with data and facts. It should be part of good governance and due diligence, as well.

On the Alaska ocean-ranching topic - if you used the search function on this forum instead of wrongly assuming what my opinion might be in order to detract from the focus on FF impacts - you might find that I have some concerns there, as well.

It's not exactly the same concerns as FF impacts for the reasons outlined in post #270. And don't forget to read the section on FISH HEALTH AND DISEASE on pages 55-56, as well - on the pdf "Salmon Hatcheries in Alaska" link above...
 
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I'm used to the stalling and denying by the industry and the government industries, Stephen. Heard the lies before - isn't too hard to be prepped. Thanks for caring tho - and you are welcome for providing you & the rest of the forum with data and facts. It should be part of good governance and due diligence, as well.

On the Alaska ocean-ranching topic - if you used the search function on this forum instead of wrongly assuming what my opinion might be in order to detract from the focus on FF impacts - you might find that I have some concerns there, as well.

It's not exactly the same concerns as FF impacts for the reasons outlined in post #270. And don't forget to read the section on FISH HEALTH AND DISEASE on pages 55-56, as well - on the pdf "Salmon Hatcheries in Alaska" link above...
I wasn't arguing about disease, wild stocks etc. I was arguing about when the balance is tipped. Look, I grew up on a farm where we had neighbors that put too many cattle in their pasture. Guess what, there wasn't enough food source and their cattle started to die off. F&W came in and seized the entire herd for neglect and abuse. Lack of food source is a problem. Doesn't mean that because my cows were well feed, I didn't worry about inoculating them for various diseases and contagions.

Same here: we can make sure our FF's are not screwing with our wild salmon stocks and also worry about whether the food source for the salmon is being depleted too rapidly. Heck we can worry about over fishing, salmon habitat and ocean warming as well. I am always concerned when one group or a government decides this is the cause without real science or only inferred science to back it up. I am not saying that you are wrong in what you think fish farms might be doing, but you keep moving away from the question of what if that isn't correct. If we simply close down industries because we are certain that is the cause, well, we better be right. We have seen absolute messes caused by governments in the last few years with exactly the same intentions and where the science wound up completely proving there ideas wrong.
 
I think the problem I have w the terrestrial farming analogy is that it is taken out of context and w/o any acknowledgement of what happens in the real world - or real ocean - in this case.

In the terrestrial environment - air flows through and around herds of cattle - but not many biological contaminants have much range using air - if that is even a transport vector at all.

Typically faeces and soil are the main propagators of disease transfer (e.g. anthrax, tuberculosis, & brucellosis).

So - as a risk-adverse strategy there is an exclusion zone developed to separate wild bison and cattle to protect the cattle - as well as stop wild-cultured stock interactions.

Where is that exclusion zone using open net-cage technology in the ocean? Anyone?

Where is the risk-adverse strategy to separate wild and farmed salmon to stop wild-cultured stock interactions?

There are not wild bison flying through your cattle herds as far as I know - or vice-versa. There is no water flow/currents taking biological contaminants in/out of the cattle field for many dozens of kilometers like there is in the ocean.
 
Hey aa, guess what farmers spread on their fields here in the lower mainland? Guess where some key aquifers are ... yup, right under those fields.
Guess who drinks drinks filtered ****?
 
still doesn't excuse the lack of oversight and due diligence over mitigating wild-cultured stock interactions using the open net-cage technology, Dave. But thanks for pointing-out the transport abilities of water...

Speaking of which - below are some science-based ways of estimating how big the disease vector zones are downstream of the open net-pens:

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/40712679.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2015/mpo-dfo/Fs70-5-2015-005-eng.pdf
https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/40654345.pdf
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.2015.0203
rstb20150203f04.jpg


Figure 4 p. 6: Force of infection,l, exerted from surrounding farmsj¼1, 2, 3, on a point location (yellow triangle) can be calculated (a) using distance as a proxy,such that is larger for closer farms. In this example,l1.l2.l3. In panel (b), is calculated more explicitly as per the water flow direction and speed (i.e.longer arrows represent faster flow). Even though farm1is closest, it is not a likely source of infection given the direction of flow. Further, farm3is located too faraway and the pathogen is not viable by the time it reaches that location of interest. Infection status of farms is shown as dark red (infected) and light green (not infected), and of water carrying viable pathogens as dark red (infected) and light blue (non-viable). (Online version in colour.)

Another related issue is that a reservoir of infection in the sea water environment can build up and be present long after outbreaks on the farms have stopped:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2109.2010.02670.x
https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao_oa/d091p177.pdf
https://imr.brage.unit.no/imr-xmlui.../Aquacult_315_3-4_2011_167-186.pdf?sequence=1
https://www.int-res.com/articles/aei2014/6/q006p119.pdf
 
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I think the problem I have w the terrestrial farming analogy is that it is taken out of context and w/o any acknowledgement of what happens in the real world - or real ocean - in this case.

In the terrestrial environment - air flows through and around herds of cattle - but not many biological contaminants have much range using air - if that is even a transport vector at all.

Typically faeces and soil are the main propagators of disease transfer (e.g. anthrax, tuberculosis, & brucellosis).

So - as a risk-adverse strategy there is an exclusion zone developed to separate wild bison and cattle to protect the cattle - as well as stop wild-cultured stock interactions.

Where is that exclusion zone using open net-cage technology in the ocean? Anyone?

Where is the risk-adverse strategy to separate wild and farmed salmon to stop wild-cultured stock interactions?

There are not wild bison flying through your cattle herds as far as I know - or vice-versa. There is no water flow/currents taking biological contaminants in/out of the cattle field for many dozens of kilometers like there is in the ocean.
You are deflecting. It isn't about disease or the transmission of them. That is important. I think the FF'ing industry has an awful lot to lose if they don't get it right. What is bothering my brain is that while we are fighting about the cause of the decline in our salmon runs, Alaska is whistling along with year after year of record harvests. They absolutely acknowledge it is their aggressive flooding of the system with smolts. So, if Canada did exactly what they are doing, would it be okay with you? If we stuck 4 billion smolts out to ranch, and kept our FF's, would we also double our catch? Would the US support us doing this? Russia and Japan are also ranching. Christ almighty, it sure looks like too much is being taken.

Is Alaska's system really healthier? What percentage do they see coming back to their streams? Is it different than us? Is it better? Love to learn and you might be the guy who has all the facts in his brain.
 
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