All Things COVID-19

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Give your head a shake. People need to be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want the vaccine . This isn’t ******* China pal. I’m not saying covid isn’t real or that it doesn't kill some people but forcing everyone to “get the damn jab” because a tiny percentage of the population is at risk of dying from covid is insane.
When was the last time you heard of someone with Diphtheria, Polio, or Smallpox? You won't, because you and everyone else around you has been immunized. These exact arguments were floating around back when those programs were implemented. It worked then and it can work now. If you can't see past your selfishness Covid will be here to stay. How would you feel if you brought Covid to a susseptable family member and they died because you couldn't see your way to do the right thing for society? I know I couldn't live with myself.
 
When was the last time you heard of someone with Diphtheria, Polio, or Smallpox? You won't, because you and everyone else around you has been immunized. These exact arguments were floating around back when those programs were implemented. It worked then and it can work now. If you can't see past your selfishness Covid will be here to stay. How would you feel if you brought Covid to a susseptable family member and they died because you couldn't see your way to do the right thing for society? I know I couldn't live with myself.
I think that's a good argument for getting the vaccine.

I don't think it's a good argument for legislating power into the hands of the state to compel you to get any medical treatment against your will.
 
I think that's a good argument for getting the vaccine.

I don't think it's a good argument for legislating power into the hands of the state to compel you to get any medical treatment against your will.

Yes the reality is with the right marketing of vaccines we can achieve herd immunity and still have a choice.
 
Where are they doing that? Serious question. Where in Canada is it mandated you have to get a vaccine? Somebody.....? Anybody......?
 
Personally I think the right of the individual not to have medical procedures done against one's will, even if misinformed or unrealistic, exceeds the right of others to demand that everyone have a reduced level of contagiousness. Maybe that's unpopular, but to me there's a very fundamental idea at stake here: one's bodily integrity is not something governments should be able to forcibly override.

I don't think that extends to temporary stuff like masking - no fundamental right is being affected there, although if they started saying "you may not leave your home without being masked up" I might start to think differently. But to require masks inside buildings is, I think, the prerogative of the owner of whatever business etc is in that building.

But even though I am generally in favour of vaccination and not at all sympathetic to the "vaccines cause autism" set (and have argued at length in favour of vaccines against true anti-vaxxers on other forums) I think the idea that the state should be able to compel you to imprint your immune system with a particular image is really disturbing, actually. Particularly in the context of this vaccine, for which we have no long term data.


I would also caution that the vaccine efficacy reports are all using relative vs absolute risk numbers, which is fine if you understand what that means, but it makes it sound a lot better than it is.

When they say it's 97% effective at stopping symptomatic cases, that's true, but it doesn't mean that your personal risk level changes by a huge amount. In fact, the absolute risk reduction is around 0.8%, i.e. you previously had, say, a 15% chance of getting a symptomatic case, and now you have a 14.2% of getting a symptomatic case.

Granted your absolute risk numbers depend on a bunch of factors, so they could change and the virus could become more widespread and your absolute risk could increase. I'm not arguing that nobody should get vaccinated, but just that there's a ton of grey area here and IMO the information that shows how murky a lot of these decisions really are, is not being made widely available.

Here's a good graphic I pulled from PubMed that explains the concept of absolute vs relative risk. It was included on a paper discussing this exact topic, which is where I got the 0.8% figure from.

Again this is not to suggest that the vaccines don't work or anything, but just to give a frame of reference about exactly what people are insisting should happen here.

Personally, I prize individual freedom very highly so that's my bias. Collective rights are very low on my list of priorities and I understand that not everyone agrees, but that's my personal ethic and I prefer the costs associated with a bias towards individual liberty to the costs associated with collective control.

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I Get where you are coming from, I'm a big Libertarian, leave me alone as long as I'm not hurting anyone and I will leave you alone as long as you are not hurting anyone and everyone mind their own business. But there's a difference. You and I both enjoy beer, maybe even more than we should, but no one can stop us from completely pickling our livers if we choose to do so. But if we choose to drive while our pickling our livers we face legal repercussions because we MIGHT get into an accident and kill someone. I think you will find vey few people who dont think this is a good idea even though it interferes with our personal right to drive drunk. Now if I choose not to get vaccinated, I might argue that the only person I am putting at risk is myself. But if I am un vaccinated I am also a danger to someone like Nog who can't get vaccinated even though he might like to. At what point do my rights supersede Nog's?
 
I Get where you are coming from, I'm a big Libertarian, leave me alone as long as I'm not hurting anyone and I will leave you alone as long as you are not hurting anyone and everyone mind their own business. But there's a difference. You and I both enjoy beer, maybe even more than we should, but no one can stop us from completely pickling our livers if we choose to do so. But if we choose to drive while our pickling our livers we face legal repercussions because we MIGHT get into an accident and kill someone. I think you will find vey few people who dont think this is a good idea even though it interferes with our personal right to drive drunk. Now if I choose not to get vaccinated, I might argue that the only person I am putting at risk is myself. But if I am un vaccinated I am also a danger to someone like Nog who can't get vaccinated even though he might like to. At what point do my rights supersede Nog's?

I would not worry about it the data is showing that most canadians will get vaccinated and we will achieve herd immunity.
 

Lives are at risk because the Liberals refuse to follow the science​


And in recent days, numerous health experts have spoken out about the risks of delaying doses.

“The second dose of mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) induces a level of virus neutralizing antibodies about 10-fold greater than the first dose,” Dr. Paul Offit, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and a member of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s vaccine advisory panel, told the New York Times. “Also, the second dose induces cellular immunity, which predicts not only longer protection, but better protection against variant strains.”

Britain is the only other country to cover up its procurement failures by delaying doses (in its case, by 12 weeks), and a recent study out of Imperial College London shows that having only one dose leaves people “vulnerable” to the variants.

“One dose in terms of all of our measurable immune parameters of (the Pfizer vaccine) really does look very, very feeble and all the more so against variants,” said Prof. Danny Altmann, the study’s co-author. “And yet whatever the level of immunity that it’s induced, it’s certainly been enough to have had some impact. But it’s really very, very weak compared to two doses.”

Given the mounting evidence, even the pharmaceutical companies are starting to speak out about the improper use of their products. Cole Pinnow, the CEO of Pfizer Canada, said in a recent interview that Canada’s decision to allow a 16-week spread between first and second doses — rather than the recommended three weeks — is not based on science.


 
well its been 25 hours since I got my Moderna. My arm was tender all night so I didn't sleep well. I've had a couple hours where I've felt nauseous. Not too bad. I'm a bit tired but I probably could have slept better if I took some Advil.

Apparently older folks don't feel the effects of the Moderna as much as people in the 30s. I'm still happy I got this shot instead of AZ which basically everyone that I have talked to gets pretty sick from.
 
What was the original recommended time between two doses of Pfizer? 2 weeks? 21 days? The nurse said see you in 4 months, when we got our first on April 30.
 
What was the original recommended time between two doses of Pfizer? 2 weeks? 21 days? The nurse said see you in 4 months, when we got our first on April 30.
I think it was 21 days. My buddies a respitory therapist and get his second dose at 6 weeks but he was one of the last to get his second dose that quickly. Now it’s four months. And goooooood luck with that. Maybe the rest of the world will be double dozed in a couple months so we will finally catch up. Hire some nurses from out of country lol
 
I think it was 21 days. My buddies a respitory therapist and get his second dose at 6 weeks but he was one of the last to get his second dose that quickly. Now it’s four months. And goooooood luck with that. Maybe the rest of the world will be double dozed in a couple months so we will finally catch up. Hire some nurses from out of country lol
Our only problem has been supply from the manufacturers. We are starting to get a lot more vaccines from Pfizer as well as Moderna now so I think the gap between doses will be less than 4 months
 
I Get where you are coming from, I'm a big Libertarian, leave me alone as long as I'm not hurting anyone and I will leave you alone as long as you are not hurting anyone and everyone mind their own business. But there's a difference. You and I both enjoy beer, maybe even more than we should, but no one can stop us from completely pickling our livers if we choose to do so. But if we choose to drive while our pickling our livers we face legal repercussions because we MIGHT get into an accident and kill someone. I think you will find vey few people who dont think this is a good idea even though it interferes with our personal right to drive drunk. Now if I choose not to get vaccinated, I might argue that the only person I am putting at risk is myself. But if I am un vaccinated I am also a danger to someone like Nog who can't get vaccinated even though he might like to. At what point do my rights supersede Nog's?
I can't tell you exactly where to draw the line but giving the state the power to compel people to undergo medical treatment to reduce the theoretical risk to others is way beyond it, as far as I'm concerned.
 
I can't tell you exactly where to draw the line but giving the state the power to compel people to undergo medical treatment to reduce the theoretical risk to others is way beyond it, as far as I'm concerned.
Again, I can understand your concern. Today it's forced vaccination, tomorrow forced sterilization, but surely you must agree some people are too stupid to be allowed to procreate?
 
Again, I can understand your concern. Today it's forced vaccination, tomorrow forced sterilization, but surely you must agree some people are too stupid to be allowed to procreate?
Yes: people who would trust the state with the power to decide whether they should be allowed to procreate are, in my opinion, too stupid to be allowed, and should probably petition the state for sterilization on their own behalf.

But others should not be forced to live under the auspices of people that stupid.
 
But aren’t we all ”being forced” to live in communities with anti-maskers and just plain selfish, self-absorbed folks who are continue to flaunt common sense public health measures? The increase in both scale and duration of this pandemic, which has had a significant cost in terms of our economy and loss of life, is directly related to community level transmission.

Selfish actions by the few, have made this pandemic significantly longer and more difficult for the whole. I get the arguments provided above but, when you look at the flip side of those arguments, what do you say to the folks who have lost their livelihoods, or a loved one, because a minority of the community chose not to abide by simple health measures because of some tin hat conspiracy they read on FB?

Interesting debate, though wish the consequences weren’t our economy and peoples lives!

Cheers!

Ukee
 
But aren’t we all ”being forced” to live in communities with anti-maskers and just plain selfish, self-absorbed folks who are continue to flaunt common sense public health measures? The increase in both scale and duration of this pandemic, which has had a significant cost in terms of our economy and loss of life, is directly related to community level transmission.

Selfish actions by the few, have made this pandemic significantly longer and more difficult for the whole. I get the arguments provided above but, when you look at the flip side of those arguments, what do you say to the folks who have lost their livelihoods, or a loved one, because a minority of the community chose not to abide by simple health measures because of some tin hat conspiracy they read on FB?

Interesting debate, though wish the consequences weren’t our economy and peoples lives!

Cheers!

Ukee
This is it exactly. Same asshats that keep on pushing the false claims that we’re being forced to get vaccinated. Spreading misinformation and causing needless worry should be a chargeable offence.
 
When was the last time you heard of someone with Diphtheria, Polio, or Smallpox? You won't, because you and everyone else around you has been immunized. These exact arguments were floating around back when those programs were implemented. It worked then and it can work now. If you can't see past your selfishness Covid will be here to stay. How would you feel if you brought Covid to a susseptable family member and they died because you couldn't see your way to do the right thing for society? I know I couldn't live with myself.
I don't visit susceptible family members so this would not happen. I also wear a mask and follow the guidelines as does my pregnant nurse wife and kids who also have not seen grandparents that live an hour away since July. I have tried my best to follow the science around this whole thing and keep informed and what I have read has caused me to question some of the things I see going on. In a nutshell what I've read says Covid appears to hit the obese , unhealthy and old people the worst. Vitamin D seems to be a factor too from what I have read. So having said that, we have a government that has forced people to spend huge amounts of time inside their homes for roughly a year now and all this has done is cause more weight gain and lower vitamin d levels so if someone is to get infected the reaction could be worse. Then the government botches the vaccine rollout so badly that we are now fighting variants that had they acquired vaccines when other developed countries did we would be in much better shape. You add onto that the international flights full of this new variant landing in Vancouver from India and in my opinion we have an issue that was not caused but made much worse by our joke of a leader. Now this same "leader" is telling me to rush out and get poked by the first thing available? Even though there isn't a promise of a second vaccine in the correct timeframe? Even though we have seen vaccines pulled due to safety concerns? We are living in a country that recently sent 200 cops to shutdown a goddamn church service. We have police check stops on our highways and at ferry crossings. They are talking about implementing a gun ban and you guys actually wonder why some people are concerned and not willing to rush out and do what the government says. Sorry I'm not willing to blindly follow some woke , virtue signalling moron that somehow is still in charge of this country. I'm also not even sure there is a vaccine available for my age group yet because our woke clown of a leader decided to poke people based on the color of their skin first. Whitey taxpayers go last in this country apparently.
 
In reviewing the science I’ve found that this Virus doesn’t seem to really care if it’s a Liberal idiot running things or a Conservative idiot (it also doesn’t seem to care if it’s Communist, Monarch or Dictatorship idiots running things either).

Cheers!

Ukee

Perhaps. But the one thing I can assure you is that under the current idiot in power, it is doing just fine. Better than fine actually.

Nog
 
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