Shockey Speaks Out: Yukon Grizzly Attack

Discussion in 'General Open Forum' started by IronNoggin, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. Islander57

    Islander57 Well-Known Member

    What an arrogant post. So full of BS it's staggering. I never quoted Shockey using the word cull....his words are " a plague of grizzly bears". Fact is, there are very few fatal bear attacks that would warrant the hint of a re-instatement of the grizzly bear, and I will call it what it is, a "trophy hunt". Shockey promotes himself as a trophy guide. His hunting shows are all about trophy hunting, not meat or sustenance hunting.
    Calling me a hugger? Seriously? You don't even know me. I have been involved, as a past board member and member of the Calgary Fish and Game Association on many habitat restoration projects. I've donated plenty of money to salmon related causes in this province, and still do. I not longer hunt, but I do support hunting. I've hunted elk, moose, whitetail and mule deer, pheasants, ducks and geese for many of my sixty one years. Seems to me you're the one sitting behind your keyboard acting like the little warrior.
    I feel no need to answer your question of shutting down the entire coast to fishing, because that's not a thought I even entertain. Not sure where that is relevant in this thread, unless perhaps you feel that anyone with an opinion that doesn't match yours must make them an anti-hunting, anti-fishing person. Get real. Same goes for PR representation. I have not chimed on that because my opinion is irrelevant to any of this conversation.
    Of course I eat chicken, pork, beef and whatever. I also eat venison, elk, moose and whatever other game. Your point? I've always told people I felt wild game was much better than domestic meat. Still feel that way. But, then again, I support hunting, just not the justification of grizzly hunting, because I know a lot of the meat is wasted. Also because the number of grizzly attacks on humans doesn't warrant a need to reduce their numbers. The bears also are not decimating wildlife stocks. The only time I have ever favoured a "cull" was the reduction of the northern wolf population, as they had a direct impact on wildlife numbers.
    Finally, yes, I have had grizzly meat. Not a personal favorite, but that's subjective. Not everyone likes everything. Some like to eat liver while others don't. No relevance to this topic.
     
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  2. walleyes

    walleyes Crew Member

    My heart was wrenched when I read about this a couple days ago, a terrible tragedy I can't imagine how the father partner feels, and what it must be like coming home to find something like this. I do agree that we as humans have the responsibility to control some predators in certain cases and situations. I personely don't feel that the middle of the bush in the Yukon is necessarily a place to be culling bears. That is their domain, when you enter that area it is their domain not ours. When that man and women went to live in that area there is a certain amount of inherent risk you have to assume, and with that the responsibility to live with those animals. I'm not blaming them, I'm certainly not saying good for them no way but, you stick your hand in a fire it will get burned.
    As much respect as I have for Jim Shockey he's an accomplished hunter and advocate of the game I think its arrogant and presumptuous on his behalf to think that by being able to kill a couple more bears a year in this area this would not have happened. Yes I agree hunting is a useful tool to control animal populations and a necessity in some cases but in this case it would more than likely not have made a difference. He's doing no different than the antis he's talking about, he states how they use tactics to sway people's thinking to their benefit he is doing the same thing by showing his anger and pulling at the heart strings of people. Yes the ban on grizzly bear hunting in BC is foolish and political but he's almost blaming the politicians for this incident. The politicians didn't t tell these people to go live in the middle of the Yukon bush they chose this area to live. Don't forget one thing, every grizzly bear tag Jim Shockey can get is worth $20,000 US to him,, where is his motivation really coming from ??
     
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  3. Carmanah

    Carmanah Member

    Pretty pathetic sign of the times turning this tragedy into a soap box to stand on.

    RIP
     
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  4. IronNoggin

    IronNoggin Well-Known Member

    JeHeSuz. :(

    Guess you missed the point that Jim not only knew these folks well, but was a neighbor.

    And that he himself, and his crew, had problems with quite likely the same bear.

    And that due to the existing rules / bureaucracy surrounding grizzly bear tag allocations in the Yukon, they could do nothing about it.

    Unless of course they went all Ralph Klein on it.

    To him, in his grief (shared by many) it was indeed His House, and His Watch.

    Personally I can relate.

    Sadly,
    Nog
     
  5. walleyes

    walleyes Crew Member

    With all do respect Iron,, bull shit.

    First off Jim shockey lives nere Saskatoon he's no neighbour to these people that live up there. Yes he has an outfit in the area and probly visits it once in a while when someone pays him enough to hunt with him, if they don't have the cash then it's no go. Look I'm not againts hunting or predator control and I do like Jim Shockey but I have to call him on this one I really do. I'm sure he does feel bad about this situation as as we all do but he's using this to grand stand and push his agenda.
    I'm no city boy, I live, work eat and play in the woods, I hunt every critter that's legal to hunt and have done so since I could walk so don't go all pro hunter defender of the life on my ass either. But just because we own guns and love to hunt doesn't mean we have to kill with them just to kill. Where are these bloody animals supposed to be left alone, where is their sanctuary suppose to be for crying out loud if not in the middle of the Yukon. There is no evidence what so ever that this was the same bear that hit his cabin none and he doesn't say that he just mentions it to drive home his agenda.

    Take it as you will I'm not going to argue over this for the next 10 days.
     
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  6. IronNoggin

    IronNoggin Well-Known Member

    Good. You are entitled to your humble opinion. And thanks for that.

    BTW, Jim and I go back over 40 years.
    I have been to his cabin there several times.
    And from talking with him the past couple of days, I firmly believe him.

    As do I believe the biologist Buddy of mine involved in this investigation.

    As do I believe the neighbor trapper and his assessment of the situation.

    As for your opinion and what it counts for me personally... Not So Much.

    Have a nice evening.
    Nog
     
  7. wildmanyeah

    wildmanyeah Crew Member

    I read Jim's letter, I'd imagine under a better state of mind he would of wrote things different.

    I few lines in their read like he has a bunch of hungry guides just chomping at the bit so they can be unleashed to kill a bunch of bears.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  8. CVmike

    CVmike Active Member

    I appreciate your opinion and you come off as well infomed and well educucated, but I feel you’ve fell victim to a few common misconceptions commonly spread by the anti hunting crowd;
    1- Reinstalling a grizzley hunt automatically creates an open season for ‘trophy hunting’ - Horgans orinigal plan was to make it mandatory to pack out and use all the edible portions of the bear. This solves the trophy hunt arguement.

    2- Bringing back the grizzly hunt will not prevent future attacks - Guide outfitters generally guide their clients to big dominant bears; the ones who beat on the smaller bears and drive them into urban areas. A responsibly managed hunt is undoubtedly a great tool to prevent attacks.

    3- The financial benefit with bear watching is greater than with hunting - this is the one that chokes me up the worst. The two are not mutually exclusive and have thrived alongside one another for many years. In BC the grizzley population has been stable and even slightly rising while also supporting a regulated hunt.

    I don’t understand the people who want to go kill a big apex predator for bragging rights and a rug, and I don’t agree with them but I am in full support of a properly managed hunt.
     
  9. Islander57

    Islander57 Well-Known Member

    https://www.bookyourhunt.com/outfitters/jim-shockeys-hunting-adventures#/tours $18,614.00 before additional costs. That's what a Yukon grizzly hunt costs with Jim Shockey's guides.
    Price Includes
    • Transport on territory
    • Transfer from/to airport
    • Boat hiring
    • Guiding by PH
    • Field trophy preparation
    • Trophy measurement
    • Hunting license
    • Breakfast
    • Dinner
    • Laundry
    • Snacks
    • Tea/Coffee
    • ***Grizzly trophy fee***
    Price DOES NOT include
    • Observers - $3000 USD per package
    • Gun rental & Ammunition
    • Gun permits
    • Insurance
    • Tourist tax - 5% to all costs
    • GST Rebate of 2.5% of Hunt Cost -$487.50.
    • Government royalty fees for moose - $150 USD.
    • Air charter flight into and out of camp - $2000 USD.
    • Air charter for meat from first animal killed - $1700 USD
    • License, tags and processing for all animals in the Yukon - $1287.50 USD
    • Tips
    Now I have nothing against making money, not at all. But to use this one incident as a call to make more licenses available, so they can keep the population in check just really is not flying well. If there was a high occurrence of grizzly/human encounters that was persistently putting human lives at risk, then yes, I would more than likely agree to a management hunt to bring the numbers down. However, Yukon biologists are not making that claim, instead they are stating this is a very rare occurrence. Asking the man who stands to profit the most from an increase in grizzly tags doesn't come off as the best source in this case. However tragic this case is, this is not the first, nor will it be the last attack we will read about. This location is smack dab in the middle of the wilderness, right in the grizzlies back yard. Just look at the link, view the map in satellite format and you will see that. I'm no Jim Shockey, but I would surely expect to see grizzlies in that area, in reasonable numbers. No co-incidence that is where his camp is.
    As for the victims, as sad as it is that people died, this will always be a fact of being in the wilderness. No matter how many tags are issued. Most attacks occur from sow/cub or startled bear encounters. When the necropsy is done on the bear, I'm sure there will be more light shed on why this event happened.
     
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  10. halimark

    halimark Well-Known Member

    I'm with Jackal and Nog, so many on here are anti science based management of our wildlife, but professional facebook, google scientists who would manage all by their misguided emotions. If your emotions worked for fishing as they do with "trophy" hunting then we would not have or need this site. The SRKW need the salmon, the gbears populations are increasing. You cry over the worlds most scientific management of BC's gbear, call people names, ones who have done and forgot more than you will ever know about worldwide wildlife management, make accusations, and force your ideas of what to do with a carcass on others???? Glad none of you try for the largest oldest fish, your a "trophy" fisher or as Jackal states a little hypocritical. Lets manage all the planets renewable resources based on science be it a fish, animal or tree and unite as one user group against those who want us golfing. Shame on you all, and all this started from a horrific maybe avoidable tragedy.

    HM
     
  11. cracked_ribs

    cracked_ribs Well-Known Member

    No doubt it varies from person to person but I fully support trophy hunting of grizzly bears...I just don't think there's necessarily a reliable link between the opening of that hunt, and human safety.

    I am also extremely skeptical of the ability of humans to "manage" wildlife well. In general, government actions to manage wildlife of all sorts have left me spectacularly unimpressed. That's not an argument against hunting in any form, it's just an expression of total mistrust in the government's ability to take beneficial action in regards to wildlife. It's not that I don't support wildlife management per se, just that I'm used to watching the state fail to protect our natural resources effectively. That doesn't mean I don't think they should make decisions about allowing hunts etc, just that I expect the decisions to be inept, expensive, and based on data which later turns out to be wrong.

    I'm not at all - and again I speak only for myself here, I don't know that there are two sides to this issue as much as a huge variety of opinion - not at all opposed to opening the Yukon trophy hunt for grizzlies. I just wouldn't do it with the assumption that it will make the Yukon a safer place.

    Legislating in response to any tragedy is fraught with problems. A single car accident that kills a family does not necessarily mean that a provincial speed limit should be changed, no matter how much people might be grieving. In general, changing laws on the basis of rare, outlier incidents is a bad idea. There could well be great reasons to do more trophy hunting of grizzlies: an increasing population, excessive predation on local prey species, younger bears found starving, etc. All kinds of good reasons. I just wouldn't class a single tragedy as a sound basis for changing the management strategy, even though I do agree with trophy hunting, I'm totally comfortable with Jim Shockey's profession and income, and if the numbers support it I would be all for opening the Yukon grizzly hunt.

    I just do not like strategy via tragedy.
     
  12. Islander57

    Islander57 Well-Known Member

    There is an open trophy hunt season in the Yukon. I have no issue with how Jim Shockey earns a living. But for him to use this tragedy as a platform to increase the bear harvest by stating there is a "plague of bears" is somewhat of a conflict. Nobody here even knows the circumstances, but there is a call to increase the harvest on bears. B.C. is closed to grizzly hunting. I'm sure as time goes on, there will be a limited grizzly season or seasons. One incident however, doesn't show any evidence of a "plague of bears" and allowing hunting will never eliminate bear attacks. For decades and decades there has been sanctioned hunting seasons for grizzly, and there has always been attacks on humans. I think what makes this incident different, is an infant was killed. I would like to see all the circumstances behind this attack, and if it could have been prevented, even by the victims.
     
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  13. walleyes

    walleyes Crew Member

    I want to ask you one thing. If Jims concern in this matter is purely based on his concerns for human safety and the proper balance of bear populations then why in all his ranting did he not mention the ban on Grizzly bear hunting in Alberta, why did he only mention the jurisdictions in which he holds hunting rights to, why only mention jurisdictions in which he can gain more tags in. Personly I think he's pissed he lossed so much revenue from these bans and this was his soap box to stand on and rant about it.

    Just my opinion not that it matters any... So Much.
     
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  14. IronNoggin

    IronNoggin Well-Known Member

    He himself admitted he was grieving and angry and that he “took a day before writing “ his piece. But it’s clear he probably should have waited more than a day, we’ve all written things and hit “send” before we should have..

    I am reasonably certain that if Jim was not completely incensed with grief, and then whether wrong or rightly channeling that grief into attempting to find blame, then anger, he would have worded what he said in a different manner. Under the stress of the situation he (and the balance of that small community) is and was under, I can understand why he wrote what he did. I also suspect he will issue some form of clarification shortly now.

    I can totally understand his heartbreak and anger.

    You labeling him as attempting to capitalize on the tragic deaths of these people that he knew well... again... NOT SO MUCH.

    You noted you weren't up to debating this for the next ten days.
    How about living those words, and giving it a rest.

    Nog
     
  15. walleyes

    walleyes Crew Member

    Your right Nog, I'm getting all caught up in something that really I have no skin in anyways.

    These long 3 week shifts at work do me no good, I have to get home and get some time out on the ice and get some fresh air going through me and put the damn key board down.
     
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  16. Islander57

    Islander57 Well-Known Member

    Just because this happened in Shockey's hunting back yard, doesn't equate to his opinion been the correct one. Grizzly attacks happen. They have for as long as white man started to settle in their territory. Once the facts come out, and the necropsy results released, then the experts can opine. Until then, this has nothing to do with gun regulations, increasing grizzly tag quota's or re-opening closed seasons. Could be that the victims share a good portion of blame, but I won't jump to that conclusion just yet. This whole thread is based on Jim Shockey's opinion. He might just be wrong.
     
  17. IronNoggin

    IronNoggin Well-Known Member

    Better odds that you are in this matter. Really.

    Nog
     
  18. The Jackel

    The Jackel Well-Known Member

    Were you feeling a bit off when you penned this response, there is no mention of TROPHY HUNT in writing, hope you feel better soon. I'm with Jim and Nog 100%, if you think the greens are just going to stop at the gbear hunt, remember when it hits the fan that this was just the start of their crusade and you were their cheer leader, carry on. CVmike great post couldn't agree more
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  19. triplenickel

    triplenickel Well-Known Member

    Not before?

    Out of curiosity how many would be enough?
     
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  20. Islander57

    Islander57 Well-Known Member

    Well if you want to use this incident as the example, the Yukon already has a trophy grizzly hunt. The last grizzly fatality in the Yukon was in 2006. The victim in that case walked too close to a den containing a sow and two cubs. Prior to that, it was 1996.
    BC on the other hand saw its last fatal attack in 2005. That was an encounter that involved a sow and two cubs. You then have to go back to 1998, an encounter with a bear feeding on a moose, then back to 1995 when two hunters were killed while field dressing an elk.
    These are not overwhelming statistics, given the amount of people that travel into grizzly country or reside in grizzly country. This most recent incident, as unfortunate as it was, still does not warrant any of this "they need to be hunted down and killed to keep them in control" nonsense. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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