Stubborn Kicker - ARGGGGG
- Thread starter Franko Manini
- Start date
salmonkiller01
Well-Known Member
Do you turn the throttle up manually for a cold start? Most of my kickers I have to turn the throttle up at a cold start but once warm start at low throttle. Not sure if that makes sense. You could also open your a/f screw a 1/4 turn and see if that helps.
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
I tried various throttle settings while starting to no avail. I haven't looked at any adjustments on the carb. There is one at least, probably a mixture screw. I'm am notoriously lame at monkeying around with carb settings so intentionally left them at the untouched factory settings.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
I will try to open the a/f screw tomorrow if I have some time. I will also try higher throttle settings again to be sure I covered it off.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
trendsetter
Active Member
#1 stop running that motor out of fuel. It's completely unnecessary and will cause you way more problems cold starting it.
Is there a choke on this motor? On evinrudes you push the key in to activate the choke/primer on 4-stroke yamis it's an automatic choke. Not sure about Suzuki. The hard starting you describe sounds a lot like it needs a choke or primer to get it started.
Is there a choke on this motor? On evinrudes you push the key in to activate the choke/primer on 4-stroke yamis it's an automatic choke. Not sure about Suzuki. The hard starting you describe sounds a lot like it needs a choke or primer to get it started.
salmonkiller01
Well-Known Member
I agree on not running it out of fuel, unless parking for extended periods
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
Yes, the motor has a manual choke. I have verified that it works properly by closing it when the motor is running and warm. It stalls out the motor.
When you say to not run it out of fuel except for storing for long periods of time, how long do you mean? Often the boat isn't used for a few weeks. Is that long enough to warrant running it out of fuel? Is draining the carb bowl sufficient to prevent varnish from forming?
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
When you say to not run it out of fuel except for storing for long periods of time, how long do you mean? Often the boat isn't used for a few weeks. Is that long enough to warrant running it out of fuel? Is draining the carb bowl sufficient to prevent varnish from forming?
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
I would only drain the fuel if not using it for more than a month. I never drain mine but start both main and kicker every few weeks during the winter months just to get fresh oil onto all moving parts and the cylinder walls. Never had a varnish problem. I add stabil during the winter as well.
trendsetter
Active Member
I never run my motors out of fuel, including when storing them for several months. Before storing a motor you should add fuel stabilizer and run it for 5 minutes to get the fresh fuel into the carbs. You can also fog the cylinders if you want but I only do that if I'm storing for an entire season.
Try this for starting.
1. Pump the fuel line primer ball until it's hard.
2. Take the throttle and push it all the way to full then back to idle. Repeat 3 times. Leave the throttle at the idle.
3. Activate the choke.
4. Start the motor.
See if that improves anything. Cheers.
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
I will try this procedure as soon as I can.
I run stabilizer in my fuel all of the time, without exception, so there is never any unstabilized fuel in the entire system including the engines. I thought I was doing a good thing by running it dry, but I can understand that now I have to prime the fuel pump and such, and maybe that is an issue. I am starting to understand that there is a lot of variation in how people store their engines and how they deal with fuel that is still in the system. This is what I hear that people have been doing:
1) Do nothing - let the fuel sit in the carb, the motor's fuel system, and the fuel lines.
2) Drain the carb bowl - undo the little screw on the base of most carbs and let the fuel pee out into a little bottle.
3) Do 2, then run the motor for a few seconds - this supposedly clears out all the excess fuel in the carb
4) Run it out of fuel - disconnect the fuel supply and let the motor run itself out of fuel
I think most people are running stabilizer in their main fuel supply, although I have heard of some people who run a secondary fuel supply containing a higher concentration of stabilizer and use that to run the motor when flushing. Then this is the fuel that stays in the motor when stored.
What I am trying to get to is an effective storage procedure for 2-4 weeks at a time, which is all my boat is generally unused for. If it's longer than 4 weeks, I will run the motors up in the driveway. I think what I will try is to run the motor for flushing, then shut it off and simply drain the fuel from the carb bowl. That should help the starting, keep enough fuel in the system to prime the fuel pump, and eliminate the carb fouling. What do you guys think?
Man, I have so much to learn!
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Just my 2 cents, but on a newer outboard running non-ethanol gas with fuel stabilizer
you shouldn't have to do anything but fire your motors up every 2-3 weeks if not in use.
keep the motor trimmed down so water does not freeze in the lower unit.
you shouldn't have to do anything but fire your motors up every 2-3 weeks if not in use.
keep the motor trimmed down so water does not freeze in the lower unit.
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
The plot thickens...
I tried the procedure outlined by trendsetter just a few minutes ago. It did not help unfortunately. But while I was poking around, I noticed that I could see a big bubble in the fuel filter. The filters on these engines are pretty small, and semi opaque. I could see that it was only about half full of fuel. I pumped the priming bulb a few more times and I could see fuel going into the filter, but it seemed like there was a lot of resistance. Maybe that filter is plugged up? Although the carb looked clean, after I soaked it there was a lot of crap in the container. So maybe the fuel filter is plugged making it difficult to prime the fuel pump?
Anyway. I could not get the motor to start until I gave it a tiny shot of carb cleaner in the intake. I will replace the fuel filter and see if that helps. I mean if the carb was dirty, the filter might be too right? If that doesn't work, I will try opening the mixture screw as described by salmonkiller01. If that doesn't work... Well who knows. This is driving me nuts.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
I tried the procedure outlined by trendsetter just a few minutes ago. It did not help unfortunately. But while I was poking around, I noticed that I could see a big bubble in the fuel filter. The filters on these engines are pretty small, and semi opaque. I could see that it was only about half full of fuel. I pumped the priming bulb a few more times and I could see fuel going into the filter, but it seemed like there was a lot of resistance. Maybe that filter is plugged up? Although the carb looked clean, after I soaked it there was a lot of crap in the container. So maybe the fuel filter is plugged making it difficult to prime the fuel pump?
Anyway. I could not get the motor to start until I gave it a tiny shot of carb cleaner in the intake. I will replace the fuel filter and see if that helps. I mean if the carb was dirty, the filter might be too right? If that doesn't work, I will try opening the mixture screw as described by salmonkiller01. If that doesn't work... Well who knows. This is driving me nuts.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Replace the filter if crap was getting by it into carb, the filter is done. When you open the mixture screw just note where the original position was so if you have to go back you know where it was. I think opening it a 1/4 to 1/2 turn will help you when the engine is cold. It did on my 9.9 Yamaha. It used to be a little hard starting and would stall out a few times until it ran long enough and developed some heat. Now it starts right up and seldom ever quits when cold.
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys. I will stop and get a filter tomorrow, and adjust the mixture as well.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
I installed a fresh filter and it made no difference at all. So before resorting to spraying fuel down the throat, I recorded the existing position of the air fuel mixture screw (2.75 turns out from seated) and opened it in half turn increments x 4. A total of 2 full turns out past the existing setting. No love. I also did the opposite, adjusting it in from the current setting the same way to a total of 2 full turns in from the existing setting. Nada. Then I removed the screw and shot carb cleaner down the hole, and hit it with some compressed air. Nothing.
This motor will not start cold unless I shoot some fuel down the throat of the carb. After that, it runs awesome.
I am completely out of ideas.
So where do I take it here in Victoria to get a pro to look at it?
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
This motor will not start cold unless I shoot some fuel down the throat of the carb. After that, it runs awesome.
I am completely out of ideas.
So where do I take it here in Victoria to get a pro to look at it?
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Last edited by a moderator:
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
Woooo hoooooo! I fixed this little mother!
After hours of frustration I finally decided to take it back to square one and pull the carb again. I had eliminated fuel supply, filter, spark, and fuel pump by this time, and so I figured the issue had to be with the carb.
Specifically, I figured the choke wasn't working, so after having a really close look at the carb and figuring out how the choke circuit worked, I found a secondary fuel passage that moves fuel from the bowl to the top of the carb and drips it into a little port on top of the throat. This is done under vacuum only, and that only happens when the choke is engaged. The fuel collects in this port about the diameter of a drinking straw and drips through 4 tiny holes into the top of the carb throat. 3 of the holes are on the intake side of the butterfly, one is on the manifold side. This increases the richness of the fuel mixture since the air intake is limited by the choke. At the same time, it drips a tiny amount of fuel into the manifold side of the carb to prime the engine.
I dripped some carb cleaner into this little port and found that all four of these holes were plugged. I cleaned them out with some stainless wire and carb cleaner. Fifteen minutes later I had the carb back on and buttoned up. A couple squeezes of the priming bulb, pull the choke, throttle a smidge off idle, and one hit of the starter button and she roared to life.
I shut it down, drained the fuel from the carb bowl and let the motor be for a couple days. This is the lay up regime I want to follow so I wanted to see if it would start. It started easily and as a bonus it runs better than it ever has. It idles right down to 900 RPM smooth as silk.
Thanks to everyone who helped me out with tips and suggestions. I hope someone else finds this thread useful one day.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
After hours of frustration I finally decided to take it back to square one and pull the carb again. I had eliminated fuel supply, filter, spark, and fuel pump by this time, and so I figured the issue had to be with the carb.
Specifically, I figured the choke wasn't working, so after having a really close look at the carb and figuring out how the choke circuit worked, I found a secondary fuel passage that moves fuel from the bowl to the top of the carb and drips it into a little port on top of the throat. This is done under vacuum only, and that only happens when the choke is engaged. The fuel collects in this port about the diameter of a drinking straw and drips through 4 tiny holes into the top of the carb throat. 3 of the holes are on the intake side of the butterfly, one is on the manifold side. This increases the richness of the fuel mixture since the air intake is limited by the choke. At the same time, it drips a tiny amount of fuel into the manifold side of the carb to prime the engine.
I dripped some carb cleaner into this little port and found that all four of these holes were plugged. I cleaned them out with some stainless wire and carb cleaner. Fifteen minutes later I had the carb back on and buttoned up. A couple squeezes of the priming bulb, pull the choke, throttle a smidge off idle, and one hit of the starter button and she roared to life.
I shut it down, drained the fuel from the carb bowl and let the motor be for a couple days. This is the lay up regime I want to follow so I wanted to see if it would start. It started easily and as a bonus it runs better than it ever has. It idles right down to 900 RPM smooth as silk.
Thanks to everyone who helped me out with tips and suggestions. I hope someone else finds this thread useful one day.
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Last edited by a moderator:
Franko Manini
Well-Known Member
I gotta tell ya, solving this issue has been really rewarding for me, especially since I had to force myself to sit there and figure out how this carb actually worked. Generally speaking, chokes increase the amount of fuel in the mixture. But HOW the choke accomplishes this varies from carb to carb. I haven't seen a ton of carbs, but I did some research and figured out how the chokes work on various models. Some work by directly controlling the butterfly valve plate and how much it states open or closed. On the Suzuki I have, the choke is really just a switch that reroutes the vacuum generated by the intake stroke of the pistons. By closing off one passage, it makes the vacuum pull fuel from the bowl to the top of the carb, tricking it through these little holes via gravity. Those holes must be PERFECTLY clean since there is no Pressure behind the fuel, just vacuum in the throttle body to pull the additional fuel through and into the carb body. Note that this is entirely independent from the idle circuit which is only active when the choke is disengaged. This is why changing the idle screw settings did not affect the cold starting of the carb.
Once I slowed down and really thought about how this carbuerator actually works, I was able to figure out what the problem might be and where to look for it. It was something I overlooked before because I could not see that it affected the choke circuit.
By the way, there was no way that I could have seen that these holes were plugged. There was no way to look through the jokes into a bright light or anything like that. But once I poked at it with a pice of fine wire taken from a stainless wire brush, a hard crusty Gray substance came out of it. I think it was a combination of varnish and soot from backfires.
Hope this gives others the confidence that guys on this forum will totally help you out. And if I ever have the same problem when I am out fishing, or on a trip, I will know how to fix it. What a great feeling!
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
Once I slowed down and really thought about how this carbuerator actually works, I was able to figure out what the problem might be and where to look for it. It was something I overlooked before because I could not see that it affected the choke circuit.
By the way, there was no way that I could have seen that these holes were plugged. There was no way to look through the jokes into a bright light or anything like that. But once I poked at it with a pice of fine wire taken from a stainless wire brush, a hard crusty Gray substance came out of it. I think it was a combination of varnish and soot from backfires.
Hope this gives others the confidence that guys on this forum will totally help you out. And if I ever have the same problem when I am out fishing, or on a trip, I will know how to fix it. What a great feeling!
Franko
MILF (Man, I Love Fishing)
daddystoy
Well-Known Member
I used to have problems with a 2 barrel Holley carb I had on my 302. The problem I had was similar to yours Franko in that it was hard starting cold. Turns out it was an accelerator pump that wasn't working properly. This is a pump with a diaphragm that squirts raw fuel right into the intake manifold. Once I got that figured out she never gave me a problem firing up.
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