Shipping Lanes

[BigHog]

I guess the real question is WHY would you put yourself and your equipment at risk to fish in those conditions? If you do have to go out make sure you have the proper electronics to ensure you can see and been seen by all vessels out there. Don't mean to be little your fishing effort ... hope you caught your limit!!

 

[agentaqua]

some real great posts here. Just to add/reinforce:

If you are within a VTM Zone on the coast of BC (which is mostly Vancouver Island and approaches to Rupert) - ALL vessels over 20 m length (fishing vessels 24+m, yachts 30+m) and/or over 500 GRT (gillnetters are 11-15 Tons, seiners 20-45 tons, yachts 15-2500 tons, tugs often 200-500 tons, container and bulk carriers ships often 30,000 - 50,000 tons, oil tankers 30,000 - 300,000 tons, etc.) by law (the Vessel Traffic Services Zones Regulations, part of the CANADA SHIPPING ACT, 2001) have to comply with VTM procedures - including following traffic lanes and calling-in and monitoring the appropriate VTM channel (ch 11, 71, etc).

This is all listed in the Radio Aids to Marine Navigation (RAMN) book avail at the same place you buy your charts from. Maps of each the zones are also found in the RAMN book with the CIPs annotated on the maps. Any marine chart you buy also has the CIPs on it. It is a good idea to have a map or chart with the CIPs in your area handy or even posted-up in your wheelhouse. You can even print-off this webpage with low quality jpg maps and lat/longs of CIPs: http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/RAMN2012/Pacific/Part3

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00873/images/Pac-part_3-5-eng.jpg

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00873/images/Pac-part_3-6-eng.jpg

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00873/images/Pac-part_3-7-eng.jpg

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00873/images/Pac-part_3-8-eng.jpg

It only makes sense to monitor the appropriate VTM channel - no matter what the size of your own boat - so you hear what calling-in point (CIP) these vessels are at, and where they are headed and the ETA for the next CIP is. If you know where you are - you know where the large shipping is and when you can expect to see it - all by listening to your radio. It's the most basic of information - and doesn't require fancy hardware/software.

The AIS (Automatic Identification System) works for all vessels over 299GRT. In December 2004, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) required all vessels over 299GT to carry an AIS transponder on board, which transmits their position, speed and course, among some other static information, such as vessel’s name, dimensions and voyage details. Some very good posts on this already.

Radar reflectors are ALWAYS a good idea - esp. for smaller, fibreglass/wood boats. Larger vessels will see you in the radar- and even if they don't expect to swerve for you - they will be looking to see what that target is. Radar reflectors are cheap insurance.

There is still quite a bit of traffic under 500tons and under 20-30m. SO, just being outside of the VTM lanes does not mean you are immune to vessel interactions. There is also a large wake from the big boats - particularly the cruiseships, ferries, and container ships. You are not immune to getting swamped or rocked hard by the wake if you are near the traffic lanes, either.

 

[pescador]

I think I'll take my chances. Better having one than not having one. Not sure about you guys, but, I run my radar on many clear days to get a feel for the look of things. Its BS when people say glass boats can't been seen. My Garmin picks out every target I've ever been able to see with my eyes...

 

[MRACER]

anything is better than nothing, but radar reflectors are a poor thing to rely on--some test results below.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/radar+reflector+tests.pdf

SOME INTERESTING READING ABOVE--another interesting not-
PBO
News



Ouzo report: Radar reflector test results published
Wed, 9 May 2007
Practical Boat Owner
















MAIB / Qinetiq results available to download


The Performance investigation of marine radar reflectors carried out by the defense research agency, Qinetiq in the aftermath of the loss of the 25ft yacht Ouzo last summer, has finally been published today.

Click here to download the MAIB / Qinetiq radar reflector report

The results, which were delayed due to consultations with radar reflector manufacturers can be summarized as follows:

*None of the nine units tested meets the the forthcoming draft ISO8729 [2] standard, which requires a 7.5 square-metre radar cross section (RCS) at angles of heel up to 20° for yachts, although one of the units was compliant to the angle stipulated for powerboats and catamarans of 10°

*Only one of the units tested claimed to be compliant with the existing standard ISO8729 - however, this performance was not recreated in the Qinetiq tests.

*Several of the units tested did conform with the current ISO8729, despite not holding 'type-approval'.

What was Ouzo carrying?
Ouzo is known to have been carrying a 'six-inch octahedral radar reflector' although the MAIB report of 12 April does not state what make.

The MAIB report states: 'Although any radar reflector is better than none, the type of reflector fitted to Ouzo can theoretically produce a reasonable peak increase in the RCS but, in practice, its overall performance is poor, and it is now evident that at best there was only a 50% probability that the ship would have been able to detect Ouzo on the radar at close range.'

 

[Degree of Freedom]

I've had that app for about a year, it is pretty cool...a definite eye-opener when you see a 950' long cruiseship with a 120' beam making 25+ knts! Unless you have the right equipment, if you're in the fog with 100' of visibility and one of those came into view on a collision course you wouldn't even have time to kiss your own butt goodbye...
Don't trust the AIS 100% for location accuracy though...I play around with the app during ferry trips and I've seen the range to the ship I was standing on to be as much as several kms...It is not a real-time update.

 

[Whole in the Water]

What tests?

He may have be referring to these tests:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/radar reflectors report.pdf
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Radar reflector test.pdf
http://www.safety-marine.co.uk/spages/how-to-choose-a-radar-reflector.htm
http://www.tri-lens.com/practical_sailor.txt
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/plus/532506/how-well-does-your-radar-reflector-work

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2007/05/radar_reflectors_do_they_really_work.html
http://www.echomax.co.uk/competing-products.htm

 

[beemer]

The AIS that is downloaded to iphone /ipads DOES NOT transmit your position!!!!!! It is a internet only app. You will not appear on a ships radar/AIS screen unless they are minotoring the internet , which is highly unlikely.

beemer

 

[reelfast]

ships travel inside and outside the shipping lanes all the time. without fog, watch them. you will find them cutting corners and runnig right through the 'neutral' zones. thinking that you are OK being close but outside the designated lanes is not a smart idea. radar reflector is a must. in fact, the CG should require every boat to have one along with PFDs. i also have an AIS app but if you are thinking its accurate enough to you know how close, think again. its an approximation based on a VHF radio transmission. vectoring an exact position is not in the cards so only rely on this to let you know something is approaching, not its exact position. combining this app with radar set on a close range, 1NM, is a great idea and the one i rely on all of the time.

there are lots of 'tests' on reflectors. that said, i can clearly see the difference in radar signatures of small vessels with and without reflectors. so whatever you do, get one and stop worrying about the tests of these units. what you need to know is you will be showing up much better with one than without one. from a distance, large ships will see you. once they close the gap, you are likely to disappear from their screens as a result of the location of their radar antennas. and for your own sake, if they are giving you 5 blasts on the ship whistle, MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Last Chance]

The strait of Juan de Fuca is 25 miles wide, is the only place to fish in the shipping lanes???????

 

[ziggy]

I look at shipping lanes as a good place to stay out of, rather than a place the big guys have to stay in.

 

[Degree of Freedom]

http://ccga-pacific.org/boating-safety/Safety_Bulletin_Jan_2007_Radar_Reflectors.pdf


further...


Radar Reflectors

A passive radar reflector can help a radar-equipped vessel detect your vessel. Vessels less than 20 metres long or built mostly from non-metal materials must have a radar reflector mounted above the superstructure, when possible not less than 4 metres above the water. The reflector must be able to perform under the range of foreseeable environmental conditions.

The radar reflector requirement does not apply if your vessel is very small or if it operates only:
•in limited traffic during daylight hours when the visibility is good; or
•where no vessels use radar.

Refer to Ship Safety Bulletin 07/2008: The Importance of Properly Fitting an Effective Radar Reflector on Small or Non-Metallic Vessels for more information on the need to carefully select and install radar reflectors.

Remember: Having a radar reflector simply helps you be seen. You still have to keep a proper lookout for other vessels.

More Information
•
Collision Regulations
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1416/

•
Small Vessel Regulations
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2010-91/

•
Standards for Navigation Lights, Shapes, Sound Signal Appliances and Radar Reflectors (1991) (TP 1861)
www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp1861-menu-76.htm

•
Ship Safety Bulletin 07/2008:The Importance of Properly Fitting an Effective Radar Reflector on Small or Non-Metallic Vessels
www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/bulletins-2008-07-eng.htm


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17. Vessels less than 12 metres in length are not required to exhibit the day shape in Canadian waters of a roadstead (a partly sheltered anchorage), harbour, river, lake or inland waterway. ^

 

[seadna]

The AIS that is downloaded to iphone /ipads DOES NOT transmit your position!!!!!! It is a internet only app. You will not appear on a ships radar/AIS screen unless they are minotoring the internet , which is highly unlikely.

beemer

It also doesn't report your position to the internet. All it does is use land based VHF receivers to read the signals from ships transmitting AIS and it relays those to you in approximate real time (with 1-2 mins delay typically).

As for Degree of Freedom's comment about the accuracy of AIS - it's this 1-2 min delay that is the typical problem.

As to Reelfast's comments about how position is determined via AIS - position has nothing to do with VHF receivers and vectoring off of the VHF signal. Rather AIS position is provided by GPS to the radio which then transmits the position. The accuracy of that position will be limited by the accuracy of the GPS that is hooked to (or integrated within) the VHF radio. If you're viewing position over an internet app or website, the position reports will typically have a 1-2 minute delay. If your viewing the position via an AIS receiver that is hooked to your chart plotter, the delay is effectively zero. If spent a lot of time looking at AIS transmitting boats on my chart plotter on clear days and I haven't seen one in which the position was off relative to what I see by eye.

As to various comments re: seeing fiberglass boats on radar - Yes you can see fiberglass boats on radar and when I operate my radar on a clear day, I can correlate every signal I see with a boat. When I'm in the fog, it's usually no problem either. However the SIZE of the signal is greatly improved with a radar reflect - especially if it's of the split sphere design (e.g. 8 corner cube reflectors created by 3 intersecting metalic circles at 90 degrees to each other). When one is in heavy rain and there's other clutter on the radar, the larger the return the better on is able to see a small fiberglass boat in amongst the clutter.

Regardless though, if you're fishing in the fog in an area of high traffic, without radar of your own, you are putting yourself and others at risk. In fact the people I'm most afraid of when I'm fishing in the fog are other fishermen (with or without radar) who scoot around at 20-30 kts in the fog out at Swiftsure or other good fishing locations in the Strait of JDF. Regardless of what electronics you have on board, I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't over drive your eyesight - e.g. you should be able to stop or maneuver within the distance you can see by eye. Dead heads and other floating debris typically will not show on radar and in large swells a boat that is nearby can disappear and reappear on the radar with every passing swell.

 

[Degree of Freedom]

MOST update every minute or two...here's an example of one that was updated 13 mins ago...could be that because it's at anchor it doesn't update as often?

 

[Dave S]

The strait of Juan de Fuca is 25 miles wide, is the only place to fish in the shipping lanes???????

Hey Kelly, I wasn't in the shipping lanes. I was at least a few hundred meters outside.

 

[beemer]

The shipping lanes are a guideline for ships , and they regularily navigate out side of "the lines". In restricted visibility all vessels have the obligation to avoid collision including those at anchor. Judging by the number of people who anchor up in the fog in Juan de fuca "the accident" is going to come sooner rather than later, don't let it be you!

beemer

 

[reelfast]

Hey Kelly, I wasn't in the shipping lanes. I was at least a few hundred meters outside.

the neutral zone is 400yards wide. i see ships in that zone all of the time.

i have to agree with seadna, my biggest fear are other rec anglers running around in the fog without any seeming concerns. you can hear them running at speed all the time. its one of the reasons i stay tied up when the fog is thick in the AM. but, we all get caught out there on occasion.

there is a difference in time delay for class A and for class B AIS. the big boys are all using class A which is uploaded on very short intervals. how long it takes the smart phone app to catch up, i don't know. if you have an AIS reciever on your vessel, your information is going to be more accurate. that said, AIS is great for tracking vessels as they close in on you, but your radar is your best friend to see just where their course is taking them in reference to YOU.

sure, all of us can see those pencil dots on the radar screen of boats without reflectors. but a boat with a reflector is a considerably larger 'blob' that is far easier to see and track. get a reflector if you are fishing JDF, the life you save may be your own.

 

[GDW]

A few hundre metres is not that far away. How often have you been navigating in the fog and gone off course? Big ships are not much different just ask the passengers on the queen of the north if big ships ever go off course.

It's scary out there in the fog and I'd never rely on somebody else to stay in the shipping lane or see me on radar etc. the captain could be rubbing one out on the bridge for all you know. Also ships often anchor on Constance I'm sure they leave the shipping lanes to do that.

Just be extra careful out there especially in the fog. One member here had his anchor run over by a tug last year on clear conditions. Anything can happen out there.

 

[Dave S]

Just got off the phone with Coast Guard Vessel Traffic Services (VTS) for Victoria. He was working last friday and remembers all the small targets out there and the limited visibility being reported. He said that if a ship wants to move out of the shipping lanes, which does not happen often, and especially less often in limited vis, they need to ask VTS and VTS will check if targets are showing up in the area that the ship is looking to move to. He said their radar for Victoria waters is quite accurate and would pick up a small vessel without a reflector even in 4 foot chop, but says it really makes a difference with a reflector. He told me to monitor channel 11 which is what all ships will be on in these waters. He also said that I can call on channel 11 to confirm that VTS is picking me up as a target and they can then attach a name to my target.

So, after this conversation and recommendations on here.........I am going to get a reflector and recommend anyone else who anchors in jdf with mostly not metal constructed boats do the same. Also got the app, which will be nice for piece of mind, but I think it's more important to monitor your VHF on appropriate channel and if needed, report your location to VTS.

 

[Charter Tofino]

Radar and radar reflector for fog. Joe blow ripping around at 25 knots in the fog staring at his GPS is the guy that's going to hit you.

 

[seadog19]

guys, you can call victoria traffic if u are inside race rocks, on ch11, or outside racerocks use seattle traffic on ch05a, You just have to say, I am in fog and fishing, at this spot. Not all commercial fishboats have AIS yet...so they will not show up on these apps. By simply telling traffic u are anchored outside the lane will help, he puts a mark on his screen to advise passing traffic. Seattle moniters outbound in Canadian waters to buoy J.
On tugs, outbound, I usually follow the edge of the lane, as the big guys all like to overtake on the inside, against seperation zone. West of RaceRocks outbound, the ships do not have a pilot onboard.... they do standby on ch16. If there is any ripples or light chop on the water, a small fiberglass boat (26ft ish) will not show up on screens. You are lost in whats called sea clutter. Also, if I am inbound from west coast, I will be towing north of the lanes, and its called inshore transit... hopefully that helps.