Running Cannon Balls 15's vs.18lbs

[Peterman]

Just wondering if its worth running 18's over 15's when fishing deep. 150-225ft of water.
Ive found that the braided line has made a big difference and even going to 25lbs mainline on the rods... is better than 30lbs.. When trying to keep the "blow back" as small as possible..
Im still running the older Scotty Electric's with braid (low drag).
Is it worth going with some 18 lbs cannon balls or is the difference hardly noticeable..??
Im thinking that 20's are a little hard on the older model scotty electric's..
Thanks..

 

[GDW]

There has got to be a point where the increased surface area of the heavier weight creates more blowback then the added pounds decreases it. I'm not sure if your at that mark but it doesn't matter how heavy your weight is if your traveling at 2.5 mph there will always be blow back. Just let out 20ft more line and be done with it. Somebody is going to rip a rigger right off their boat with 15-20lb weights.

 

[scott craven]

15 lb weights no problem, can't say I've ever tried heavier and don't really see the need.

 

[firelight]

I run 15's all the time, bought a pair of 18's but haven't had the balls to try them out yet. Almost put them out the other day but we hit the tide pretty good so no need too. I'm gonna do it soon cause we are always fishing pretty deep these days 160' to 180' out in the strait.

 

[Peterman]

Yeah exactly... I seem to be going deeper and deeper these days... It will be interesting to see if you notice a difference...between the two...
I really scrape the bottom hard because I think it makes a big difference in the number of fish hooking up. (or maybe its just my imagination)..
So im really curious... I know the scotty snubbers I run, don't like the heavier balls at all...

 

[Dogbreath]

Can you somehow run two snubbers side by each?

Double snubbers as it were.

 

[Peterman]

Im thinking that would create alot of drag... maybe wrapping a piece of "Gannion" (or however its called,,, green line) like a candy cane.. might help ?? same idea..
Probably just take the snubber off totally would be the easiest...

 

[Tyeefisher]

My personal quest for Chinooks has seen my guests and I fishing at depths that I would scarcely thought possible a few years ago (250 to 350 feet) But I am balking at the idea of going to more than the current fifteen pound leads that I am using today mainly because of the mass issue which to me seems quite plausible. To that end I am using the smaller Hot Spot flashers a lot of the time and keeping my main line to a maximum of thirty pound test. The other thing that makes the most difference in limiting blow back is that I always troll with the current or on a slight angle across it. While that means a lot of time wasted picking up of lines and quite a bit more gas being burnt running back up to where I started I am quite sure my increased productivity overall more than makes up for the time my lines are out of the water. I changed up to the High Performance Scotties last summer not so much for the ability to pull up heavier leads but more to cut my turn around time and allow for a quicker return to a new tack a few miles upstream.

 

[Derby]

Im thinking that would create alot of drag... maybe wrapping a piece of "Gannion" (or however its called,,, green line) like a candy cane.. might help ?? same idea..
Probably just take the snubber off totally would be the easiest...

A tuna cord stopper system works great...

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Basic geometric laws dictate that a sphere's volume increase outpaces it's increase in surface area exponentially. In fishing terms, your downrigger ball weight will increase significantly as you upsize but the surface area doesn't change that much. Thus the benefits of extra weight will definitely outpace the drawback of increased surface area and blowback.

Having said that 15 lbs is a lot of weight, 18 or 20 sounds more like an anchor. I use 12's out on South Bank, the Lighthouse, etc off Ukee unless the current is really moving, in which case I do have 15's in the boat. As others have said, though, I troll with the current both offshore and inshore when it's significant so blow back is less of an issue.

 

[Finished Business]

My personal quest for Chinooks has seen my guests and I fishing at depths that I would scarcely thought possible a few years ago (250 to 350 feet) But I am balking at the idea of going to more than the current fifteen pound leads that I am using today mainly because of the mass issue which to me seems quite plausible. To that end I am using the smaller Hot Spot flashers a lot of the time and keeping my main line to a maximum of thirty pound test. The other thing that makes the most difference in limiting blow back is that I always troll with the current or on a slight angle across it. While that means a lot of time wasted picking up of lines and quite a bit more gas being burnt running back up to where I started I am quite sure my increased productivity overall more than makes up for the time my lines are out of the water. I changed up to the High Performance Scotties last summer not so much for the ability to pull up heavier leads but more to cut my turn around time and allow for a quicker return to a new tack a few miles upstream.

HMMM could this method be the one that lead to two CR guides to ditch their old Scotty's for some HP's?? lol

 

[trophywife]

i run 18's on my non hp scotty's when bottom trolling on the banks, hali/deep springs. never a problem, just lil slower to come up than the 15's....180'-250'.

 

[tykkyt e blue]

15lb vs. 18lb

Some years ago, I was taking an engineering course at BCIT when the class was given an assignment for "calculating forces in a dynamic environment"
I convinced the instructor that a typical downrigging setup would qualify for the assignment ( he was a fly fisher so he was a bit tolerant of the idea )
I tried to briefly re-create the report we came up with.
In the end, I believe the change from 15 to 18lbs will make a 20% reduction in the angle you see in the downrigger line relative to the water but not much difference in where the ball ACTUALLY gets pushed back to from the theoretical plumb line.
Whether a 18 or 20lb cannonball is a good idea on a downrigger is really dependant on each boat/downrigger situation

 

[tykkyt e blue]

hmmph, somehow pic did not attached first time..

 

[tykkyt e blue]

try again.. I thought I knew how to do this.. the attachment is pasted in the 'manage' field

 

[Sharphooks]

So if I used an 8 lb long narrow weight (very little surface area) would it occupy the same position under the boat (relative to a plumb line) as an 18 lb weight at say, 30M ?

I get huge blow-back at depth (I do use 8's all the time) when the tide is running. But a friend told me that all that blow-back is in the braid; the ball is still hanging more or less straight below the boat.

What say you?

 

[Seafever]

Someday they will invent a radio controlled really small submersible that you clip your line to and send it down.

It will have speed control and steerability.

No downrigger needed. No blowback.

Now as long as a seal or a lingcod or halibut didn't swallow the RC, it should do the job very nicely.

 

[tykkyt e blue]

Well... its complicated.. less weight means more total surface area per lb of weight, so while you can get a more hydrodynamic shape than a sphere, all shapes OTHER than a sphere gain surface area. The coef of drag in a liquid varies with total surface area, not just frontal surface area - so the drag does not drop as much as an object moving thru air. Also, unless the shape is perfectly self stabilizing, some force is used to make the shape 'track'
Then, less weight means less force putting tension on the downrigger line. The weight is the ONLY force trying to keep the line straight. The drag from the line acts along the entire length of line equally, so less weight means MORE 'c' shape in the line as it moves thru the water. Part of the 'blowback' that is seen by the angler is due to the curvature in the line - NOT due to the drag of the ball itself.
The optimum setup would be the thinnest possible line with the densest possible sphere. Only catch is the strength of the parts needed to cope with the extremely high psi generated at localized contact points. EG line cutting into arm pulley

 

[tubber]

Just a thought before buyng 18's. Clip one or two extra hali balls on to see how it impacts blowback, how much cable it now takes to bump bottom,and whether your downriggers and gunnels can take a bit of extra weight. If you like it, then buy the 18's. I'm sticking to 15's because I still enjoy the challenge of handcranking 2 downriggers solo, while trying to land a chicken on one side and a salmon on the other a few times per summer. I prefer to fish shallower with 12's of course, but last year was more of a bottom show for me on WCVI.

 

[uclueletcharters]

Sounds like the 2 footitiss but with weights maybe we should all get some commercial hydraulic gurdies the possibilities could be endless 30lbers here we come LOL! 12lb lead is great and 15's are max I run starts getting pretty hard on the riggers in my opinion. Majority of trolling I do is 150 - 200 ft and both the 12's and 15's are fine. Like an earlier post put a little extra line out to make up for the drag.