Int'l Pacific Halibut Commission Annual Meeting - Victoria, Mon thru Fri

[Theb55]

After all is said and done, what is really needed in the recreational sector is a better system to record the size of fish caught. There are recreational fishermen out there "commercial" fishing and selling underground. They are making money at it. There are also recreational fishermen who don't catch any and through the Vodoo math, are tagged with catching some. This is our issue because DFO knows commercial catch down to the ounce. So until we go with punch cards, tags, "official" weigh stations combined with strict enforcement we will always be at the mercy of those who can present logical arguments, but not necessarily correct ones. IMHO

 

[Little Hawk]

So until we go with punch cards, tags, "official" weigh stations combined with strict enforcement we will always be at the mercy of those who can present logical arguments, but not necessarily correct ones. IMHO

Here here!

 

[UkeeDreamin]

2013 Halibut management options have been addressed at the local SFAC meeting this past November. I wont speak for other local SFAC but I can speak for area 14. It was decided, by majority vote, that we would be in favor of a slot for the 2013 season. We would also be in favor of an annual limit. Many voices had there say and I can tell you that as a group we are concerend that we do not want to go over our TAC and we want a season that is as long as possible. It was felt by our local anglers, who have experience on the water, that the slot was our best option. Now for others to say that there is no difference between 1/2 no slot and 1/2 slot goes against what our learned anglers wisdom tell us. We all know that the slot is a pain but it did change the amount of fish that we took this year. Our yearly pounds were down for most of the people I have spoken to in our area. Why did we still have the same closing date? There may be more factors that are different last year. Weather, Angler effort, Angler efficiency or just plain luck. How do you model all of that? Think it's easy to model what regulations we put in place? How about you predicting what the weather is going to be like in July and August? How about how many anglers there will be on the water for Halibut next year? Will there be such great salmon fishing that most wont go hali fishing? What if salmon fishing suck and we all target halibut because of it. One thing I can say for sure is that the guy's that are tasked with coming up with the recommended regulations are doing the best that they can do for the good of every recreational fisher in Canada. That includes the tin boat gang, guides, lodges, hotels, boat dealers, tackle shops, restaurants, small town business and every one else I missed.

Not happy with the way it's working? Get involved with you local SFAC and add your voice. That's what many of us did here in area 14.
GLG

Pretty sad when decisions are made and folks entrench their positions before data is available, then once data is available that paints a picture clear as day and they still won't accept reality. We can't be surprised when the commies hammer us for hokey management and accounting of our TAC when decisions are made by "gut" when good data is readily available and simply ignored.

All the variables and factors you mention GLG - weather, how the salmon season is going, variable luck, etc the reality is those factors apply every year to all fisheries regardless of species and regardless of management approach. Thus, the effect of any management action can still be measured relative to other management actions. When a slot limit is introduced with the sole purpose of reducing the average size fish harvested and the overall rate of harvest and not only does it not reduce either, they actually increase, it didn't work. When you take the same management action and look back at historical data from the rec fishery and clearly see there is no way it will reduce the average size harvested or harvest rate, it's clearly not a management option worth continuing to pursue.

So, in regards to your question about not being happy with the way it's working, my obvious answer is of course, no. Why would anybody be happy with a system that continues to endorse an approach that didn't work and will never work (I haven't even mentioned yet that the Alaskan's tried the same type of slot and, guess what - it didn't work and they eventually changed their regulations).

But, I'm not entirely surprised, it's human nature to entrench in our "gut" feelings and reactions.

It seemed to me that last spring there was quite a majority of us do it yourself anglers who weren't happy with the surprise slot limit negotiated by the Guide-Outfitters. Given the data that clearly shows it didn't work and the move afoot by various groups to entrench it (just like many of us feared and predicted), if there's enough interest perhaps an organized groups of us can do just what GLG suggests and get involved and voice our position to the powers that be?

Ukee

 

[Theb55]

IMHO our position is being held captive because we cannot prove our points and DFO is unwilling to look at another way. That might require a paradigm shift on their part and might mean they were wrong. Being right is the most important issue. That is required for continued funding.

 

[UkeeDreamin]

For what it's worth and for those who may be interested, DFO's 2012 Halibut Sport Fishing Report linked from the IPHC page, slides 19-21 show the biological data on size of fish harvested. You'll notice that all areas except for the Straight of Georgia 70-90% of fish harvested in all other areas were 15 lbs or less. In Straight of Georgia about 50% of fish harvested were under 15 lbs and 50% were larger:

http://www.iphc.int/meetings/2013am/documents/5.2DFOSportFL.pdf

Should be noted that this data is very consistent with the historical data on size harvested in the Rec halibut fishery.

Ukee

 

[El Capitan]

Ukee is full of it if he thinks the slot was negotiated by the guides and lodges. Nobody is ever happy when their fishing activities are curtailed, and as a guide and life long rec angler, I wont be happy until we are back at 2:3. If the slot and an annual limit (both of which I don't particularily care for) don't achieve the desired effect, than get ready for 1:1, or 1:2 with a maximum size limit. Last years scenario looks better all the time!

 

[UkeeDreamin]

El Captian, all you have to do is use the search function and find the threads from last year when the slot reg was brought in. You'd better get your facts straight before claiming someone is full of it. I haven't posted anything on this thread based on my "gut" or personal feelings, it's all fact and data based. That includes the fact it was the Guide-Outfitters who negotiated the slot reg last spring.

As I've said countless times, I'm on the same side as everyone in the Rec sector who wants a fair season that works for everyone. If the slot had done that or could do that, I'd be behind it 100%. Facts and data don't lie, though, and the slot simply didn't work, it' the wrong tool for what is intended, all the data and facts available confirm that without a doubt. So, lets find the best solution that actually works. As I've also said, I'm in favour of a sliding scale that has a full 2/3 season like we all want when the TAC allows for it and brings on varying restrictions in years there's less TAC. But the restrictions have to actually have a chance to work. If the Rec sector endorses a strategy that continues not to work, what do you all think the consequence will be in the long run?

Ukee

 

[El Capitan]

Hi Jerry, I'm not suggesting these mgmt options, the department has already presented them. Again, I will not be happy until we are back to 2:3 with a full season, but that is not going to happen any time soon. The department will manage our sector to the TAC we have, weather we like it or not. What do you suggest they should use as a mgmt tool that will provide the longest season possible and provide the most reasonable access for everyone without going over the TAC? 1:2 with an annual limit may not realize enough savings to give a long season, so do we only fish 3 months, or do we try something else. All I'm saying is that I would rather hold status quo from last year than be forced to release a big fish while a commercial boat is allowed to keep them.

 

[Theb55]

X2 Clear, well stated and this will begin to provide actual, realistic numbers while simultaneously limiting those recreational fishermen who sell their catch. Thank you.

 

[El Capitan]

I don't know one single guide / outfitter that was happy with the slot, not one! In fact every one I have talked to was po'd about it when it first came in. The halibut working group was presented with a couple options by the department and asked to make a quick recommendation at the last minute based on a couple models DFO had prepared. They were not given many choices. The models predicted that the slot would provide a long season into december which it did not. End of story.
So for 2013, the same process will happen. DFO has provided several numerical models predicting resource usage associated with various mgmt strategies. These models include 1:2 slot, 1:2 shoulder 1:1peak, 1:1 whole season, 1:2 max size, 1:2 min and max size, etc. I'm not making this up, these are options DFO has put forward, and they seem to think there is some merit to the slot. Reality sucks, I want 2:3 with no size restrictions, but it isn't going to happen.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

Ya, those are the options DFO is presenting I can confirm. The best of all of them is 1:2 with slot.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

All the other options are actual further restrictions

 

[El Capitan]

1 and 2 with out a slot is indeed less restrictive, but it will mean a shortened season. The models that DFO is presenting suggest that the slot does serve to slow our consumption. They are also factoring in a 5% increase in average size of the fish on the grounds as one of the assumptions. If the annual limit gave enough savings, than maybe 1:2 with no slot would work. But from what I'm seeing we would still go over with or without the slot.

 

[SerengetiGuide]

The options DFO are presenting have NO OPTION for 1/2 with no slot...they aren't even considering it...that's how Jerry.

 

[El Capitan]

Serengeti is right, 1:2 no slot is not an option on its own. 1/2 Shoulder Season Any Size, 1/1 July and August Any Size is an option. Sorry for the typo.

 

[searun]

Not too worry. DFO has already presented the options under consideration for 2013 through the SFAB process - each SFAC was asked for input via the Halibut Options paper which was circulated on this site many times already so no point repeating. They provided it, and a decision on recommendations has to be made this coming weekend at SFAB meetings so you will get your answer shortly. As GLG said, best we get involved in your local SFAC and have an opportunity for input. We can debate until the cows come home here on this site, but the real decisions are made by DFO after consulting through the SFAB process.

I'm hoping they land on something like 1:1 or 1:2 with or without a slot in combination with halibut punch card with max of 5 per season. I believe the math would work out to a longer season, and a punch card would help to address the changes in angling effort/behavior that were not anticipated in last season's decision. I'm not exactly found of a reverse slot (max size) simply because it is too risky/dangerous to try to release a really large fish...its not impossible, just a bit risky for measuring a fish and then releasing it safely. I think we would all love to get back to 2:3, but not this season with this TAC unless you are willing to have a very short season, and I sense that would be a show stopper for most.

 

[El Capitan]

Just what were they crying fowl about, and what was it that they predicted? Oh ya, the taliban halibut slot size conspiracy. Again, nobody likes having their fishing activities restricted regardless of which mgmt tool is used. We all want a long season with no restrictions, but it looks like we can't have both.
small biomass + no restrictions = extremely short season
small biomass + moderate restrictions = some what shortened season
small biomass + major restrictions = long season

 

[SerengetiGuide]

My vote is still for slot with what options we were presented by DFO

 

[searun]

You know what Jerry, you are sounding like a classic Monday morning quarterback. The decisions made last season were done after considering the modelling DFO presented of various options that would give us a relatively long season given a set TAC that was considerably smaller than we needed to have in order to run a full season fishery. As was stated many, many times before the assumptions those models relied upon to make the forecast on season length were impacted by variables no one had the future vision to see....larger fish, changing rec angler fishing habits. What will happen this year is we get an opportunity to consider what we learned so as not to repeat history.

A decision will be made this coming weekend at the SFAB and recommendation forwarded to DFO, who despite anything we might recommend will make whatever decision they believe works best. It was suggested we needed to hire some fancy consultant to work the numbers, that won't be necessary - DFO's already done it.

As far as I know there are plenty of recreational fishermen involved in the process, so you don't have to worry about what a few guides might think - not that we really think any differently than you about this stuff. But if it suits you to get all caught up in some conspiracy or you take some pleasure from that, have fun.

 

[GLG]

Is there any recreational fisherman that have thoughts on this? It seems to me ukee dreaming and myself are the only ones other then guides with an opinion on this. I would love to hear your thoughts.....


Hi el capatian,

If you sort through all the garbage of that thread, which I spent 3 hours this morning reading., there were.folks that stated if a slot was introduced the following would happen.

Nothing would change and the season would be the same length
High grading would occur.
Once we give it up, we would never get it back.

Conspiracy at the time. Reality of the present

I am a rec fishermen. I use a guide some times. I go out with my boat with friends and I when I hali fish I stay at a lodge for two to three days. (nootka mostly)
I have been following the hali problem for 3 or 4 years and have spent countless hours going over DFO and IPHC papers and websites to educate myself with the issues. I have send many a email and letters to DFO and my MP with my thoughts on this issue. I have even held protest signs in front of my MP's office, so I would say that I'm informed and active. I joined SFAC to get involved and do something about the problem I see in our sector. The people I have meet in SFAC / SFAB are top notch and know what they are doing. Jerry you may think that the no slot is the answer but you are simply mistaken.
GLG