I bought a solar system today. Does that make me a space cadet?
- Thread starter fish brain
- Start date
Gong Show
Well-Known Member
That always bothered me that the private big money guys could set up a run of the river project and make sweet coin, but the average homeowner trying to put a bit of excess solar into the grid to payback their investment was screwed.
I guess things have not changed under the 'new' progressive administration.
I guess things have not changed under the 'new' progressive administration.
fish brain
Crew Member
My pay back will be ten years maximum, less as Hydro rates go up.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Solar is a moving target, prices are quite dynamic. Last fall pricing for a 300W panel hit $300, the long-awaited "buck a watt" landmark. You really need a site specific study done to determine how the numbers play out for your location. If there is an existing building and you have a year's worth of energy bills, the modeling will be quite precise.
Your site's solar aspect and shading from terrain or vegetation are part but not all of the equation. Also under consideration is where and how the panels are mounted; this can affect installation costs considerably. If you're up for a new roof soon, and thinking possible solar down the road, consider going standing seam metal roof. Yes it is a more expensive roof up front, but super simple to attach racking for solar panels. The only penetration required is a single roof jack for the cable from the PV array to the building's electrical tie in point.
Grid- tied systems have seen the most price decreases because that is where the volume is, approximately 80% of the market in Canada. Off grid components like batteries and charge controllers are becoming somewhat cheaper, but not as quickly as panels and inverters. You'd think though with the major investments into R&D of batteries for automotive use that this will eventually cross deck to residential batteries. After all, there is a mass market of homes worldwide sitting there, hardly a niche industry.
Your site's solar aspect and shading from terrain or vegetation are part but not all of the equation. Also under consideration is where and how the panels are mounted; this can affect installation costs considerably. If you're up for a new roof soon, and thinking possible solar down the road, consider going standing seam metal roof. Yes it is a more expensive roof up front, but super simple to attach racking for solar panels. The only penetration required is a single roof jack for the cable from the PV array to the building's electrical tie in point.
Grid- tied systems have seen the most price decreases because that is where the volume is, approximately 80% of the market in Canada. Off grid components like batteries and charge controllers are becoming somewhat cheaper, but not as quickly as panels and inverters. You'd think though with the major investments into R&D of batteries for automotive use that this will eventually cross deck to residential batteries. After all, there is a mass market of homes worldwide sitting there, hardly a niche industry.
RevyG
Crew Member
I was exclusively solar from 1994-2004, now only when I go spend time at my cabin, it worked well but....... I love not being on it full time any more. Grid power is cheap.Period. Luckily all those years has made me a wise user of electricity, example all the phantom loads people leave on, they do add up, lights, yes LED are great but if you leave them all on all the time. Again, I was strictly solar, 5 panels, 4, 520 Ah batteries and an inverter with a 15 amp charger built in for when my Honda 5000 W generator was on. Green? Not so much, lead acid batteries, panels, manufactured by, 3-shell, 2- BP, plus all the other electronics involved(controllers, wire).
I am happy with my off grid system but now that I live in 'town' I would never go back, my power bill is cheap and so convenient compared. Just my thoughts after 27 years
I am happy with my off grid system but now that I live in 'town' I would never go back, my power bill is cheap and so convenient compared. Just my thoughts after 27 years
BCI
Well-Known Member
Any update for this system and installation? Curious to see how the actual real world electricity production is. Thanks for any info you can provide.
fish brain
Crew Member
The system was installed the week of June 15 Because we are “a complex system” meaning that because I have a 400 amp service, BC Hydro must review the installation and bless it. This can take them a couple of months, why? Who knows. All I can think about with all the sunshine we have been experiencing is all the wasted potential. Which funnily enough is what my teachers used to say about me
Rain City
Crew Member
I was always listed as potentially wasted.
fish brain
Crew Member
I can't believe how long it taked hydro to review stuff. I wrote to my installer this morning, here was his reply:
Hello Dave,
The technical review process within BC Hydro is a long one - I would expect that we will have approval in Sept.
Sorry for this news but it’s a process somewhat out of our control. Our drawings are refined now after many submissions that have been picked apart from BC Hydro.
Mark
If I had a regular 200 amp service, they would have installed the array, flipped the switch and it would be done, but because I have a 400 amp service, it seems to have to go across everyone's desk for approval? All the equipment is the same regardless of what size service I have, so why the long *&*%$ delay? It's not rocket surgery.
kaelc
Well-Known Member
Sounds like it’s time for some social media pressure! Let me know if I can help! Site visit is insane, municipal inspection and permit system should be enough but the only extra should be contractor takes pictures sends it off, approved. Follow up site visit if needed.
looks great!
fish brain
Crew Member
Thanks for the offer, it can't be toooo much longer can it?
Here is the latest correspondence between my contractor and BC Hydro:
Hi Mark,
Thank you for providing the documents. Our technical team reviewed them and provided the following comments.
It appears that the system design has been changed and the DG System Disconnect is located outside of Panel-A. If that is the intent, please update the SLD to match the final installation and email it to us for review and acceptance first. Please ensure to change/update all labels to reflect the correct information on the SLD. Once SLD is accepted, we will review FV documents as the next step.
Regards,
_______________________________________
Tatiana Noskova | Net Metering
Customer Service Operations
BC Hydro
333 Dunsmuir St, 4th floor
Vancouver, BC V6B 5R3
W www.bchydro.com/netmetering
Smart about power in all we do.
From: Mark Harold
Sent: 2021, August 14 11:46 AM
To: Net Metering
Subject: Re: NM, Mill Bay, Application Acceptable and Reduced Field Verification
Morning,
Please find attached an updated NMA submission for the below described project .
Please let me know if you have any questions and please disregard the materials from the earlier submission (dated Aug 13_21) as there was a missing photo.
Thank you.
Mark Harold, Lead Project Manager
GLG
Well-Known Member
Cheaper panels, interest in going green spurs boom in rooftop solar
Sep 15, 2021Three years ago, Earle Ten Have threw the switch on an array of 39 solar panels on his barn roof in Nanaimo, B.C. — and he's never looked back.
"As far as I'm concerned, solar is a no-brainer," he said.
The system, which cost $30,000 to install, has been silently sending about $2,000 worth of electricity to his house every year, dramatically cutting his annual bill from the provincial utility, B.C. Hydro.
And since installation, the price of solar panels has dropped, while their output and efficiency have steadily risen. Ten Have has gone on to install them on two other houses he built for his children on the same two-acre property; one project generates enough electricity to completely wipe out that home's hydro bill, he said.
As Ten Have sees it, deciding to go solar is now no different than choosing whether to install new carpets or countertops.
"I'd rather have … a solar system that pays me every month than granite countertops," he said.
Demand for solar installations is surging across Canada, according to Nicholas Gall, a director at the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, an industry group that represents 300 companies involved in wind, solar and energy storage.
"We're definitely on the cusp of an era of mass adoption," he said.
His association's data shows that commercial and residential solar generation has grown from just a few megawatts — enough to power a few hundred homes — a decade ago, to more than one gigawatt in 2020, supplying enough electricity for the equivalent of more than 100,000 homes.
And while Gall doesn't think "there's more than maybe 40,000 solar rooftops in all of Canada," right now, he said, installers have never been busier.
'Can't hire enough'
Ten years ago, Colyn Strong started Shift Energy Group, an energy consultancy firm in Vancouver. Today, solar installations account for virtually all of their work. His company expects to do 200 installations this year alone."We can't hire enough employees right now … to keep up with demand," said Strong.
Solar energy systems also account for a growing part of the business for Penfolds Roofing, which operates in the Greater Vancouver Area and B.C.'s Fraser Valley.
"Lots of people are doing it because they drive an electric vehicle and they want to offset some of that cost," said company president Shaun Mayhew. "And there's other people who just think it's the right thing to do for society and the environment."
Both reasons apply to Linda Seiffert, who is one of Mayhem's clients. As president of Snow Cap Enterprises, a bakery and food distributor in Burnaby, B.C., she decided to use the company's sprawling industrial rooftop for what's believed to be the single largest commercial installation of solar panels in the province.
"We have a lot of diesel trucks and I thought … what can I do to lessen our footprint?" said Seiffert.
More than 1,000 panels — each the size of a large flatscreen TV — will begin cranking out a half-gigawatt a year when the project is finished in about a month's time. The goal is to trim $5,000 from the company's monthly $19,000 hydro bill, though Seiffert said the company won't break even on the investment for a decade.
"I'm not living off the grid," Seiffert joked. "But I'm trying to do what I can."
A number of installers say, anecdotally, they believe the Canada Greener Homes Grant, announced in May, has created demand for residential solar panels. That's created a shortage of auditors in some parts of the country, as close to 100,000 applications have come in so far, according to Natural Resources Canada.
The grant promises homeowners up to $5,000 for systems that qualify after an energy audit. It can be applied to a variety of energy efficiency upgrades, such as heat pumps and insulation, so the federal department can't say how many applications are linked to solar projects.
No batteries required
Whether it's 10 solar panels or 1,000, the system relies on using the existing hydro grid in an arrangement with the utility known as net metering: any electricity produced that isn't immediately used is fed back to the utility for a credit against future consumption. No batteries required.And while utilities like B.C. Hydro facilitate it, they also limit how much solar energy can be self-generated.
In Ontario, for example, electricity distributors are only required to allow net metering up to a total of one per cent of the utility's peak load, though the Ontario Energy Board said it's not aware of anyone being turned down from its program.
With the average upfront cost of residential solar being between $17,500 and $21,000, lengthy break-even periods and what she says is some of the least favourable weather for solar in North America,B.C. Hydro spokesperson Susie Reider suggests there are better investments.
"In B.C. you can actually reduce your carbon footprint more from buying an electric vehicle or installing an electric heat pump," she said.
About 90 per cent of the B.C. utility's power is already clean, Reider said, because it comes from hydroelectric facilities. The rest is generated from a mixture of burning biomass (wood and pulp), natural gas and oil, with wind and solar contributing about one per cent each.
Strong chuckles when he hears a hydro utility diminish and down-sell solar.
"It's a conflict of interest for them," he said. "They're in the business of producing power. I wouldn't expect them to, as an organization, really endorse or encourage the adoption of solar."
Strong also disputes the claim that hydro power is truly green, pointing to the Site C dam in northeastern B.C., which has been criticized for its scope, schedule and budget. By the time it's finished in 2025, it will have taken 10 years and $16 billion to build.
Solar won't save the planet
While small-scale solar may cut individual hydro bills, on its own, it won't do much to help the province get to net-zero emissions — let alone save the planet, according to University of Victoria engineering professor Andrew Rowe, who studies energy systems and conversion."I tend to go to the hard numbers … the cost and the performance you get," he said. "But I think a lot of people who are doing this have a different value proposition calculation in their head."
Going forward, however, Rowe says solar will only make sense.
"It's getting more and more difficult to build big stuff. So putting a solar panel on a building, that footprint, in terms of the ecological footprint, is there and done," he said. "And that's where something like residential or commercial rooftop solar installation has additional value that we're not capturing right now."
Going solar — even to put just a dozen panels on a bungalow — comes with some caveats. It isn't as simple as hanging a string of Christmas lights. Depending on where you live, it can be a straightforward upgrade like re-shingling a roof, or it can be mired for months in an approval process.
In B.C. a patchwork of permitting regulations — some so old they don't even mention solar panels — frustrates installers and homeowners alike.
Sukhpaul Parmar, who owns Ready Solar, said some municipalities, like Burnaby, demand detailed drawings, blueprints and engineering reports. "This is no different than building a house," Parmar said.
Complying with the local regulations can also quickly eat up any government grant money, said Scott Fleenor, who started his solar-focused company, Terratek Energy Solutions, 17 years ago.
"It can cost thousands of dollars. You're basically having a guy out and recreating drawings. In some cases, we've lost projects because of it."
Elsewhere in Canada, some cities appear more welcoming of the technology.
Toronto has a number of incentives and fast tracks solar-installation permits in five days. Saskatoon has mandated that it will maximize solar potential by 2036. And Halifax offers homeowners low-interest loans to finance solar installations.
Detractors further focus on what they say is a looming crisis as the industry grows: Solar waste.
In a 2016 report, the International Renewable Energy Agency estimated Canada had generated 350 tonnes of discarded solar systems, projecting that by 2050, the amount would escalate to 650,000 tonnes.
"We don't see this as a looming crisis by any means," responded Gall.
While there is currently no systematic recycling program in place, he said there isn't yet enough volume to develop one.
And solar panels, Gall said, are "very safe."
"They're almost entirely glass and aluminum, with a tiny amount of lead and silver, which are perfectly within the frame," he said. "They don't leach any toxic elements even in a landfill. Even if they're crushed, they're very inert."
The panels being installed today have a life expectancy of 25 to 30 years, he said, which is more than enough time to adopt a recycling system.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/solar-power-british-columbia-1.6170843
kaelc
Well-Known Member
One of my old school buddies is quoted. Funny when Solar companies call up my business they say they can't afford to pay to hire employees and when they provide me with a quote for solar I say I can't afford the quote because I fish and have a boat. So much for a green economy, but I really need good flexible solar panels on my boat!
Thunder21
Well-Known Member
As soon as the government grants disappear so do a lot of the sales. This is no different than electric cars. I'm glad people are investing in solar because with demand will hopefully come newer , better technology but in my opinion solar is not quite there yet for anyone living on the coast. It obviously works, but if you are talking about the ROI, it financially doesn't make sense yet. The one person in the article above seems to think that Hydro is threatened by solar but I don't think that's the case. If too much solar was coming online , the utility wouldn't offer a net metering program and would simply no longer allow anyone to back-feed the system. If you've got the money and you want something unique that you can brag to people about, a Tesla and solar system are perfect for that but until costs come down I don't think it'll put a lot of money in your pocket.
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fish brain
Crew Member
I bought my system before the rebate was announced. the projected pay back is 10 years at today's rates . Show me another investment with a guaranteed 10% return.
sly_karma
Crew Member
I built a winery in 2017 that runs from off grid solar. Lengthy trenching run and transformer to connect to hydro were pricing out at 70-80K. The project electrician charged 80K for a 15 kV rooftop PV array that runs their entire facility including winemaking equipment and heat pumps for HVAC.
There is a 6 week period in Dec-Jan when days are short and the valley cloud can really sock in. Generation potential is much reduced and insufficient to keep up with heating requirements. During this period the propane backup generator kicks in to recharge batteries every 2nd or 3rd day. The tank was already in place to run a wind machine which is used to minimise frost in spring and fall.
Offgrid solar components are more expensive than grid tie systems, because of volume. Roughly 80% of systems installed in nth america are grid tied. The costs continue to fall, so keep checking your math. What you thought was uneonomical two years ago may well be worth it now. Battery technology is being pushed hard by the EV wave, and this will soon begin to impact cost and efficiency of residential storage for off grid homes.
There is a 6 week period in Dec-Jan when days are short and the valley cloud can really sock in. Generation potential is much reduced and insufficient to keep up with heating requirements. During this period the propane backup generator kicks in to recharge batteries every 2nd or 3rd day. The tank was already in place to run a wind machine which is used to minimise frost in spring and fall.
Offgrid solar components are more expensive than grid tie systems, because of volume. Roughly 80% of systems installed in nth america are grid tied. The costs continue to fall, so keep checking your math. What you thought was uneonomical two years ago may well be worth it now. Battery technology is being pushed hard by the EV wave, and this will soon begin to impact cost and efficiency of residential storage for off grid homes.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
If I had a spare 100k I’d buy a Tesla Y and install solar panels
sly_karma
Crew Member
Ridge on my house runs almost exactly solar north-south. Doh! 90 degree rotation needed for best solar install.
Low slope though so might just install some anyway on racking angled south. Use the money saved by not upgrading the electric service from 125 amp to 200 amp. Gonna need some power to charge the F150 whenever it arrives.
Low slope though so might just install some anyway on racking angled south. Use the money saved by not upgrading the electric service from 125 amp to 200 amp. Gonna need some power to charge the F150 whenever it arrives.
