HST or PST check out this link..too long for me to post

[alwaysfishn]

If this tax is such a great thing, why isn't Alberta jumping on the HST band wagon? You'd think if it were that spectacular that they'd be chomping at the bit to sign up? Hate to say it but there's a really good reason they are not. Also, while the tax makes companies more profitable and competitive, the goal of most company owners is to increase their own bottom line. If I can earn more profit and not hire more people, why would I bother? If anything I'd be looking for ways to cut the number of employees further.

Second, the government does not do anything for free. If they are willing to lower the tax to 10% it is because at 10% they are making more than they are at 12%. You do not implement a tax to make less money. You do it to generate higher revenues. Since when has the government done ANYTHING tax wise that has taken money out of their pockets?

The key is that the HST is charged to ALL products and services while the PST/GST combination is not. Speaking directly at the house reno topic, the PST was previously NOT charged on any product that added energy efficiency to a home in BC such as better windows, doors, insulation, energy efficient lighting, etc. The HST is charged on all of these items so in fact the Tax bill IS higher on many property renovations and construction.

The bottom line is the HST WILL cost us more, even at 10%, than the 12% GST/PST combination. Less tax on more products and services is still MORE TAX.

Alberta already has the HST.... it's just that theirs is called the GST and is only 5%.

Unlike the PST every dollar of GST and HST can be claimed by a business. That's why our businesses can now compete with every business in Alberta. When we had PST every product our businesses produced were more expensive than the equivalent product that was produced in Alberta.

The reason the HST is being reduced to 10% is because it is charged on more products and services so it has been generating more revenue. It was meant to be revenue neutral compared to the PST/GST.

The 10% HST will cost us less than the 12% GST/HST.

Under PST/GST 80% of products were charged 12% and 20% were charged 5%.

Take a $100 basket of products and services under the PST/GST.
$80 x 12% = $9.60 plus $20 x 5% = $1.00 equals $10.60 total tax

Take the same basket under HST.
$100 x 10% = $10.00

Under a 10% HST you will save $.60 in taxes (5.5%)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUBznBvtnp0

 

[alwaysfishn]

how can 11 000 jobs lost be directly and solely because of the HST, cmon now..did cfax say that, or is it you inference?, could it not also be because the USA market is in the crapper or because our dollar is high?, and some of those jobs are govt jobs so its not all a loss,lol..holmes*

I'm not sure where Yammy got his job numbers, definitely not from Statistics Canada....

"According to Statistics Canada, in June Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador lost jobs. Alongside Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia also saw job gains — Ontario added 40,000 — while the other provinces remained more or less steady.

While Canada netted out 28,400 new positions, a third straight month of job gains, the dismal job numbers in the United States — 18,000 being much lower than the predicted estimate of 105,000 — drove down stock markets and commodity prices.

© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald"

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Alberta+adds+jobs+June/5074568/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

 

[yammy5]

I'm not sure where Yammy got his job numbers, definitely not from Statistics Canada....

"According to Statistics Canada, in June Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador lost jobs. Alongside Alberta, Ontario and Nova Scotia also saw job gains — Ontario added 40,000 — while the other provinces remained more or less steady.

While Canada netted out 28,400 new positions, a third straight month of job gains, the dismal job numbers in the United States — 18,000 being much lower than the predicted estimate of 105,000 — drove down stock markets and commodity prices.

© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald"

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Alberta+adds+jobs+June/5074568/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

Definately not Stats Canada? What are you talking about? Do you watch the news? YES, my source was Stats Canada. BC lost more than 11,000 jobs in June while other provinces were creating jobs. I know it's hard for you to believe that the HST is a lie but my stats are not.


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/subjects-sujets/labour-travail/lfs-epa/lfs-epa-eng.pdf

Read the portion on BC.

Technically BC lost 11,800 full time jobs.

You can apologize now...

 

[alwaysfishn]

Thanks for the link.... Found the same quote on page one as in the Calgary Herald article. "Ontario, Alberta and Nova Scotia posted employment gains in June, while there were declines in Quebec as well as Newfoundland and Labrador. Employment was little changed in the other provinces. "

But if it makes you happy, you go ahead and interpret that as BC losing 11,000 jobs.

 

[Steelhead S2]

I've looked at it too. if you go down to the bottom and look at the data the numbers are clear. Under the "changed in thousands column" full time work in BC is reported at -11.8. Doesn't that mean 11,800 full time jobs lost? This kind of job losses won't make anyone happy AF. But hopefully it will make people think.

For me, while I have major issues with how the HST was introduced, and while I don't think much of the BC Lieberals, I am on the fence about how to vote in this referendum. It is evidence like this that will decide my vote. And because I believe in the right to a decent job and a decent living, the loss of this many full time jobs in the wake of the HST makes me question where the benefit lies.

 

[alwaysfishn]

I've looked at it too. if you go down to the bottom and look at the data the numbers are clear. Under the "changed in thousands column" full time work in BC is reported at -11.8. Doesn't that mean 11,800 full time jobs lost? This kind of job losses won't make anyone happy AF. But hopefully it will make people think.

For me, while I have major issues with how the HST was introduced, and while I don't think much of the BC Lieberals, I am on the fence about how to vote in this referendum. It is evidence like this that will decide my vote. And because I believe in the right to a decent job and a decent living, the loss of this many full time jobs in the wake of the HST makes me question where the benefit lies.

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the numbers either, that's why I went to the summary. I think the employment numbers get offset by the unemployment rate.

In the report Stats Can refers in a couple of places to provinces that have lost jobs but doesn't mention BC in either of them.

 

[yammy5]

BC lost 11,800 full time jobs in June alone under the HST. It's in black and white in the publication. 'And has made headlines on news today.

It doesn't take an economist to see that the HST has done nothing for job creation and may in fact be causing severe job losses.

You can read the paper tomorrow Alwaysfishin if you can't interpret the Stats Canada publication.

 

[alwaysfishn]

BC lost 11,800 full time jobs in June alone under the HST. It's in black and white in the publication. 'And has made headlines on news today.

It doesn't take an economist to see that the HST has done nothing for job creation and may in fact be causing severe job losses.

You can read the paper tomorrow Alwaysfishin if you can't interpret the Stats Canada publication.

Like I said if that makes you happy.... I don't need to interpret Stats Canada's numbers... They summarized them for me:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/110708/dq110708a-eng.htm
http://www.cbj.ca/business_news/canadian_business_news/canadian_jobs_jump_in_june_statscan.html
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate

I'm not sure what paper is going to be publishing what you want them to publish.... except maybe The Tyee. They make stuff up all the time...

 

[alwaysfishn]

B.C. take note: HST serves New Brunswick well

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/take+note+serves+Brunswick+well/5039963/story.html

 

[yammy5]

Alwaysfishn, I don't understand. You seem to be a numbers guy but you ignore the Stats Canada publication (or are incapable of interpreting it?) (or you're conviently ignoring it?).

BC Take Note - 11,800 jobs lost in June in BC.

Economics 101 - our economy is different from that of New Brunswick.

 

[Steelhead S2]

I went back and looked at the Stats Can data again. You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't New Brunswick show very significant job losses too? 4,700 full time jobs lost in the last year? This is just data, not spin from politicos or media. To me it seems cleaner, and more reliable than the yes/no campaign propaganda.

But the job numbers from BC and NB do seem to show pretty significant full-time job losses since the HST. Makes me question where the benefit in this new tax lies.

Am I missing something when I look at this data? Does the minus sign in front of the number mean jobs created. Because I am reading it as jobs lost. So far it looks like the HST has cost the economy serious jobs, which is not a good reason to support it in my opinion.

 

[yammy5]

BC led country in full-time job losses in June - Liberal HST Jobs Promise a Failure
July 8, 2011

Statistics Canada numbers released today show British Columbia lost 11,800 full time jobs in June. In the same month most other provinces added full-time jobs. Alberta added 13,200 full-time jobs and Ontario created 14,400 new full-time jobs.

B.C’s unemployment rate of 7.3 per cent rate is the highest in western Canada.

“In their scramble to justify the HST, Christy Clark, Kevin Falcon and the BC Liberals have said over and over that it will create lots of jobs,” says Jim Sinclair, president of the Federation. “Statistics Canada data shows the HST is a job-creating failure. Since the HST came into effect last July, the number of jobs in B.C. has gone down and our unemployment rate has remained much too high.”

The Liberal government’s so-called “independent panel”, chaired by former Alberta Progressive Conservative cabinet minister Jim Dinning, predicted the HST would create 24,400 more jobs in B.C. over the next ten years.

“In the month of June alone we lost almost half of the number of jobs the HST was supposed to create over the next ten years. The jobs argument presented by the Liberals to justify the HST is looking more and more like a con job to try and sell an unpopular tax that shifts $2 billion in taxes paid by big business on to individuals and families.”

 

[onefish]

Accentuate the positive when possible, ignore or bury the negative. The media brainwashes us continually with this type of journalism. Liberal=business at all costs=very good, NDP=balance between business and labour=very bad, if people hear it enough then it must be true, right?
Accentuate positive Harper/Christy HST info, ignore unflattering HST info, journalism 101.
If 2 billion per year is taken out of the consumers pockets how the hell do you actually expect to create jobs.
I think it must be the NDP's fault that job numbers have declined in BC. What would the liberals do without those pesky NDP types to point to all the time.
With the USA quickly heading for an economic tsunami the stickmen and their HST cause may well be mute anyway.

 

[alwaysfishn]

BC led country in full-time job losses in June - Liberal HST Jobs Promise a Failure
July 8, 2011

Statistics Canada numbers released today show British Columbia lost 11,800 full time jobs in June. In the same month most other provinces added full-time jobs. Alberta added 13,200 full-time jobs and Ontario created 14,400 new full-time jobs.

B.C’s unemployment rate of 7.3 per cent rate is the highest in western Canada.

“In their scramble to justify the HST, Christy Clark, Kevin Falcon and the BC Liberals have said over and over that it will create lots of jobs,” says Jim Sinclair, president of the Federation. “Statistics Canada data shows the HST is a job-creating failure. Since the HST came into effect last July, the number of jobs in B.C. has gone down and our unemployment rate has remained much too high.”

The Liberal government’s so-called “independent panel”, chaired by former Alberta Progressive Conservative cabinet minister Jim Dinning, predicted the HST would create 24,400 more jobs in B.C. over the next ten years.

“In the month of June alone we lost almost half of the number of jobs the HST was supposed to create over the next ten years. The jobs argument presented by the Liberals to justify the HST is looking more and more like a con job to try and sell an unpopular tax that shifts $2 billion in taxes paid by big business on to individuals and families.”

I see you forgot to include the link Yammy... http://bcfed.ca/node/2127 Obviously I'm not comfortable with trusting Jim Sinclair and his Union boys with being very accurate.

I prefer to get my information from Stats Can http://www.statcan.gc.ca/subjects-sujets/labour-travail/lfs-epa/lfs-epa-eng.pdf

"Ontario, Alberta and Nova Scotia posted
employment gains in June, while there were declines
in Quebec as well as Newfoundland and Labrador.
Employment was little changed in the other provinces."

 

[Steelhead S2]

AF, you should scroll down to the bottom of the Stats Can site. The numbers speak for themselves, and they clearly say that BC and NB lost may thousands of jobs in the past year. Maybe that isn't a significant change for the Stats Can analysts, whose interpretation you keep repeating. But 11,800 is a hell of a lot of jobs for BC to lose in a year. I don't especially care what the Stats Can folks or the trade union folks think of it, and I don't know what guides their various interpretations. But even if that interpretation is correct and there has been "little change" in job numbers for BC or NB, if the change is a LOSS of jobs, rather than a gain, then the HST isn't doing what it's supposed to. Even if only a handful of jobs are lost (and 11,800 is more than a handful) if the HST comes at the expense of full time jobs then I can't support it. And that is what the numbers are showing.

It doesn't matter whether they are interpreted by Jim Sinclair or big business or some government hack. The numbers speak for themselves. And they are telling me that the HST leads to job losses. Job losses will lead to reduced consumer spending, more job losses, etc. So where is the benefit?

These job numbers have been a real eye-opener for me. I won't cast my vote quite yet, but unless these figures are rebutted, I can't support the HST. I can't bring myself to support a tax that will cost someone else their livelihood.

 

[alwaysfishn]

AF, you should scroll down to the bottom of the Stats Can site. The numbers speak for themselves, and they clearly say that BC and NB lost may thousands of jobs in the past year. Maybe that isn't a significant change for the Stats Can analysts, whose interpretation you keep repeating. But 11,800 is a hell of a lot of jobs for BC to lose in a year. I don't especially care what the Stats Can folks or the trade union folks think of it, and I don't know what guides their various interpretations. But even if that interpretation is correct and there has been "little change" in job numbers for BC or NB, if the change is a LOSS of jobs, rather than a gain, then the HST isn't doing what it's supposed to. Even if only a handful of jobs are lost (and 11,800 is more than a handful) if the HST comes at the expense of full time jobs then I can't support it. And that is what the numbers are showing.

It doesn't matter whether they are interpreted by Jim Sinclair or big business or some government hack. The numbers speak for themselves. And they are telling me that the HST leads to job losses. Job losses will lead to reduced consumer spending, more job losses, etc. So where is the benefit?

These job numbers have been a real eye-opener for me. I won't cast my vote quite yet, but unless these figures are rebutted, I can't support the HST. I can't bring myself to support a tax that will cost someone else their livelihood.

Like I said earlier, I don't know how to interpret the numbers so I don't even try. When Jim Sinclair interpreted the numbers he said that "Alberta added 13,200 full-time jobs and Ontario created 14,400 new full-time jobs". Stats Can numbers seem to say Alberta 22,000 and Ontario 40,000...

So let's not jump to the conclusion that Sinclair knows what he is talking about! That's why I went with Stats Can's summary.

The HST has been in place for 1 year.... Why would you take 1 month of data and state that the HST is killing the job market in BC? Wouldn't you at least take the job numbers for one whole year? You don't think HST is the one and only thing that effects jobs, do you? Do a little research on what sort of things effect employment. I'd be surprised if you come up with less than 25 different factors.

Ontario has had the HST for one year as well. They had the largest job increase in Canada. Why wouldn't you draw the conclusion that HST is great??

If you want to make your decision based on that bit of information, then I can't help you. It's like looking outside and seeing that it's raining today and saying "The weather has sucked all year and I'm going to move!"

Do you see how ridiculous that sort of decision making would be?

 

[Steelhead S2]

right, i was looking at the wrong column for bc. 4,200 full time jobs lost for the past year, not 11,800. still significant in my opinion. but i did have the right column for nb. i meant to look at the past year, not the monthly data.

and yes, there are many factors that impact the job market. that is why i doubt some of these "predictions" that the hst will be a major job creator. i really do think it's just a tax shift. but to the extent that it can impact the job market, it looks like it has hurt the job market in bc and nb, no?

as for ont., it is a manufacturing economy in a way that bc is not. we prefer to ship our raw materials overseas. i am glad for ont, but what's good there may not work here. just like the weather, different conditions prevail in different regions.

the job numbers are the only unbiased info i have seen on this tax, so no, i don't think it is ridiculous to take them into account when deciding how to vote. we have a very unique opportunity here in bc, to judge a tax after a one-year trial. and in that year over 4000 jobs lost, whereas before it was tested the hst was expected to create jobs. how can i interpret this as anything but a failed test? how am i being ridiculous?

sorry about the lack of capitalization here... baby on my knee. and he IS being ridiculous!!

 

[alwaysfishn]

Here's some more stats (that I posted earlier) for you to consider, which are more significant than employment numbers. Low inflation is best and highest GDP is best.

The following chart shows the CPI/Inflation numbers for Canada as well as the GDP numbers. As the chart shows BC's GDP is the 3rd highest in Canada and it's inflation is second lowest.

I'm not saying that BC is doing so well because of the HST, I am saying the HST is definitely not hurting BC.

 

[yammy5]

Hey Steelhead there's not much more we can do for Alwaysfishin. He wanted numbers and stats so I gave them to him on several points but he just disregards them and tows the Liberal line. He's going down with the ship on this one. So I'm done.

However i will say that the numbers are not to hard to interpret on the stats canada link. If you ad up the part time and full time positions then you get the grand total quoted by the stats canada summary. Jim was quoting full time job losses. Alwaysfishin, take another look at the stats canada document near the bottom for your own sake so that you understand how it works. Each province is clearly listed. You can PM me if you want me to explain it more...

On a brighter note, fished with The Rock and landed a 15lb and a 27lb in Oak Bay this AM along with a pile of crabs. Sunny weather and calm waters ~ can't beat it!

Alwaysfishin, you should get some fresh air and go fishing! They should be in the river for ya by now. Good luck and no hard feelings whether the HST is voted in or out .

 

[alwaysfishn]

Hey Yammy... I'm getting fresh air in my back yard, getting the camp tent ready for hunting season. Rivers are all too high to be fishing and Fraser is still closed.

Thank goodness it isn't fishing or hunting season right now. Who would be setting you guys straight on the HST?

Whichever way it goes, it's out of our hands....