Guiding Insurance and Limitations RE: TUNA
- Thread starter Birdsnest
- Start date
I believe that the above quote nails it.
So if you are operating withing your trade waters....
That's it....almost all lodges/guides are 25 miles max
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Seems like a HUGE leap to have to get a 60 t ticket. In many aspects is there any difference between 25 and 50 miles. Just sayin. There never was tuna fishing(guiding) on the west coast when this reg was made so maybe this has to be or should be re visited. Just because it is the rule does not mean it cant be changed. The problem I see is there is such a large gap between SVOP and 60t masters. There is no in between ticket to accommodate this situation.
trophywife
Crew Member
so now the big question after we have all agreed... "how do we get properly insured?"
from what i am really understanding is a 60gt ticket and a boat over 5gt properly equipped.
hard to get liability insurance in a small boat that far off.. once i get the ticket i want to know how much the 70 mile rider will be..for a boat under 5gt.... hmmmm .. possible? or way too much monies?
from what i am really understanding is a 60gt ticket and a boat over 5gt properly equipped.
hard to get liability insurance in a small boat that far off.. once i get the ticket i want to know how much the 70 mile rider will be..for a boat under 5gt.... hmmmm .. possible? or way too much monies?
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Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
From what I am getting my insurance is currently good way the hell out there for a guided trip BUT i do not have the 60t ticket so its a no go. Getting the insurance isn't the problem.
searun
Well-Known Member
Charlie my bad for being general in my comment. Yes I read my policy. Yes I'm very careful to know precisely what is covered and when that is in question I call my broker as I have done. Yes the policy states precisely the trade area which is approximately 70 miles as far as I can chart. I have no interest in being anywhere close to that limit which is why I haven't determined in advance of any trip precisely where that is. Go easy there big fella. Also of note, I did post that I asked for the response in writing which would hook in the Brokers E and O policy if he provides incorrect advice. This ain't my first rodeo.
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fishyboy99
Active Member
Hi,
Just a couple other coments to Doug's answer (which is the correct one) about the ISO level of your boat. Insurance companies will insure you for what ever you would like, but if you or your vessel is not operating to TC's requirements (skipper qualifications, ISO rating of the vessel, distance from point of land in Canada etc), then your insurance is void. Most boats under the 26' range fall into ISO Level C, - 25nm, 2m seas and 34knt winds. If your boat has been modified with extra's such as pod's, larger fuel tanks, larger or smaller top-side structures, basically anything that significantly changes the original stability rating of the vessel, or reduces the ability to 'shed' water, your insurance company MAY not cover you without a proper stability test. If you have an older boat that has been modified and are taking it past the level C limits, and have not had a updated stability test you are basicly 'self-insuring' from what I have understood from our insurance broker. So if something happens out there, you would be responsible for the vessel and the passengers, whether you are a paid skipper or not.
As for having or not having insurance (for non charter boats) it would be completely crazy not to have it. Protects you and your passengers. As for charter boats, I think it should be a requirement. If I were a guest, I would ask what the coverage is because if I fall and break a hip or something, and it was deemed the fault of the charter operator, and I was unable to work for months, then I would have to claim insurance.
Anyway, enough of this delightful subject
Writing this with my thumbs on my phone, wondering how my kids do this all day long
Regards,
Fishyboy
Just a couple other coments to Doug's answer (which is the correct one) about the ISO level of your boat. Insurance companies will insure you for what ever you would like, but if you or your vessel is not operating to TC's requirements (skipper qualifications, ISO rating of the vessel, distance from point of land in Canada etc), then your insurance is void. Most boats under the 26' range fall into ISO Level C, - 25nm, 2m seas and 34knt winds. If your boat has been modified with extra's such as pod's, larger fuel tanks, larger or smaller top-side structures, basically anything that significantly changes the original stability rating of the vessel, or reduces the ability to 'shed' water, your insurance company MAY not cover you without a proper stability test. If you have an older boat that has been modified and are taking it past the level C limits, and have not had a updated stability test you are basicly 'self-insuring' from what I have understood from our insurance broker. So if something happens out there, you would be responsible for the vessel and the passengers, whether you are a paid skipper or not.
As for having or not having insurance (for non charter boats) it would be completely crazy not to have it. Protects you and your passengers. As for charter boats, I think it should be a requirement. If I were a guest, I would ask what the coverage is because if I fall and break a hip or something, and it was deemed the fault of the charter operator, and I was unable to work for months, then I would have to claim insurance.
Anyway, enough of this delightful subject
Writing this with my thumbs on my phone, wondering how my kids do this all day longRegards,
Fishyboy
Secretpursuit
Member
As a 35 year broker of insurance I'd tell you to reread Charlies post. I'm experienced in all areas of insurance and am very reluctant to chime in on what is and is not covered under the countless number of insurance policies out there. Your expert should be your broker, however many brokers have very little experience in the marine markets and coverages they afford. There general insurance agents selling homeowners, auto, recreation vehicles, boats etc. One common thread in marine policies contain a clause which has a high impact on coverage available . It's called a warranty, as an example if your policy states " Warranted for operations within a 25 mile limit of ...." and you exceed the 25 mile limit once, the policy is dull and void. Example your 35 miles offshore which voids the policy and run aground returning home 2 miles from shore, your on your own. Cross the 25 mile and the policy is void hence forth.Disclose all matters when when making your application for insurance, a good broker will refer you out of his office if you fall into a category that's beyond his expertise of coverage. It's in his and yours best interest, if when dealing with your broker you feel the least bit uncomfortable, head else where. Beyond that document your exchanges in writing and retain a copy of that application for a E&O claim against the broker. A poor substitute for dealing with a knowable broker. And no this is not a sales pitch, contact me about heading offshore 25 plus miles, with a boat load of paying guests and I'll refer you to a competitor better suited to your needs. Barring that i'll see you out there fully insured for the unpaying crew aboard. Remember, a lack of proper insurance, and a large claim, your personal assets are up for grabs.
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searun
Well-Known Member
Good posts. ISO will only be available for late model/year boats. It's been a long time since I researched that prior to doing my stability test. Thinking it is like 2005 and newer? Stability test is requirement for C license.
Good advice also on insurance. No one wants to breach their policy. Consequences are devastating.
Good advice also on insurance. No one wants to breach their policy. Consequences are devastating.
fishin_magician
Well-Known Member
Mother Nature and the ocean doesn't give a rat's butt about insurance policies and 60 ton tickets.
Hook'n Them Up Fishing
Member
I lived and guided in Ukee for over 3 years fished lots of tuna 60 ton means tonnage SVOP requires same courses of chart plotting and navigation as well as radio officers card and there is not a 25 mile restriction on the small vessel masters your are at your own risk and I quote this straight from Boris chief of transport Canada Safety ... but you need a good boat and a skilled captain if there not local don't do it you will see just how small you really are once your 50 miles offshore in 35ft rollers safety first folks gotta be smart about it.
mbowers
Well-Known Member
So if you're 24 miles offshore and break down, drift outside of 25 miles and now the policy is void?
I think TC's 25 nm from shore AND 100 nm from a place of refuge needs some more explanation. Is it really saying that being 24 miles from a rocky shore and 99 miles from a place of refuge is safer than being 26 miles from shore and 27 miles from a place of refuge?? To me OR makes a lot more sense than AND. Where is shore? VI is an ISLAND so the whole thing could be considered to not be "shore"
My US Coast Guard OUPV license (lowest level certification that lets you guide outside of inland waters) lets me guide up to 100nm from shore which seems way more reasonable than just 25nm. On the west coast of florida 25nm is just 25 feet of water! To guide out to 200nm a 100ton Master license is required..
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Some good points above. I believe that this is an issue that could be addressed by the local guide association to first confirm what the limitations are and second see what changes could be made to accommodate the tuna guiding niche. Technology now allows every day sport fishers access to safety equipment that was not available to small operators a short time ago, ie: plb's and eperbs' even GPS's.
Like I have said before, it seams like a 60 T ticket is a bit excessive but in all honesty I am not familiar with that course or qualification so...
Like I have said before, it seams like a 60 T ticket is a bit excessive but in all honesty I am not familiar with that course or qualification so...
NootkaSounder
Active Member
I was talking to Transport Canada office in Victoria for my own business, but I asked them about the limitations as SVOP is only good for 25kms.
and he knew about the issue and what is best is for people to get together and go sit on Canadian Marine Advisory Counsel meeting that meets twice a year in Van, and express your concern and they might be able to make a change to the laws.
and he knew about the issue and what is best is for people to get together and go sit on Canadian Marine Advisory Counsel meeting that meets twice a year in Van, and express your concern and they might be able to make a change to the laws.
coastalmarinesafety
Active Member
Just a follow up to the above comment about "stability being a requirement of a C licence". A C licence or C# basically serves to document the vessel for Transport Canada as being in commercial (non-pleasure craft) service (and can aid search and rescue via a searchable database). C# are issued and handled via Ottawa and is not really realted to the stability requirement. Stability is but one safety requirement under the Small Vessel Regs. ISO 12217-1 stability, like another member said, is required for any guide boat (non-pleasure craft use) over 19'6" built/imported after April 1, 2005...or any vessel modified since April 1, 2005.
To put it all in context: the SVCP "Blue Decal" program is handled by your regional TC inspector and summarizes all the regulations or steps for you to be compliant. Besides stability; registration with a C#, proper certifications, safety equip, lights, bilge pumps, alarms, etc. are other requirements.
As said by others before in regards to going beyond 25NM, NCII... for certification, SVOP is an NCII certificate. Others have suggested a Master Limited (60Ton) as being an alternative. The 60Ton certificate is a limited certificate as set by the inspector you do your oral exam with (which is exam # 3 in the process, Chartwork/Pilotage and Nav Safety/ColRegs are the other 2). On a 60 Ton certificate they limit master to a specific vessel and voyage route or area. Which is why some members are saying you may be able to obtain one for going beyond NCII voyage. However, that is contingent on the examiner/inspector with TC allowing it for your situation, experience level, vessel construction, or whatever they go by when stamping a voyage restriction/allowance on the final certificate. I would check with your local examination office first before embarking down the 60 Ton route and be up front of why you are thinking of going that route. 60 Ton examinations are now done either done via TC in Victoria (for Vancouver Island) or via TC in Vancouver.
Also to note, MED A3 does not transfer to your ML60Ton requirements. Before getting a 60Ton, you must upgrade to MED A2, a 4 day course covering practical immersion suit, life raft and firefighting, as well as passenger control. The other pre-reqs for 60 Ton (to be valid for passenger carrying vessels) are 60 days (1 day=8 hours) commercial seatime, Transport Canada medical with one of their listed doctors, ROC-M with DSC or ROC-MC, and Marine Basic First Aid, plus the 3 exams with TC. You also can't be colour blind, as that shows up during the medical.
For those on the North Island, North Island College frequently offers all those courses as well as the 60Ton prep. course. I went through the process a few years ago and am currently tutoring a couple of guys towards their Nav Safety, 061 exam which is basically memorizing the entire ColRegs start to finish, and other nav. safety practices.
Anyway, for anyone with related questions, feel free to PM me anytime. I've helped out several members on here with their boats. I do stab tests (including ISO), take care of all the registration paperwork for C# application and assist with SVCP Blue Decal paperwork as well. Most of all, I just like to help people get the right answers to their questions. Which is why I love the spirit of this forum. Cheers.
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bigdogeh
Well-Known Member
can you give us an idea of the approx cost of insurance for a 10 year old 30' boat (worth approx $120,000) with 4 friends (unpaying crew) that want to head out 50 or 60 miles for tuna? I pay approx $800 atm per year (25 mile limit)...
