fishnwhenIcan
Well-Known Member
Yup, but they need to keep working the PR. Over and over and over again......
Going to Court to Stop Spread of Disease (Part 2 of 2)
- Thread starter Whole in the Water
- Start date
GLG
Well-Known Member
Hey Fishfarm friends...
Seems to me this part say's it all
So the questions are...
How did this virus get into the Dalrymple hatchery in Sayward... From wild salmon???
Like the Marine Harvest Lawyer seems to imply...... Not good if that is the truth.
You keep wild salmon up there too????
If the number 2 killer of farmed salmon is HSMI what virus is responsible?
You would think they would know after all it cost them plenty.
If they "proved" there is no link between HSMI and PRV can you supply a link to the science paper?
I'm not saying your full of BS but simply saying you have proof doesn't cut it with me.
Why is it up to the fish farms to say if it's safe to put diseased smolts from the Dalrymple hatchery in Sayward into a net pen salmon farm on the Fraser sockeye migration route. What the heck are my tax dollars doing at DFO if they are not watching or making rules about what goes into the ocean? You realize that wild salmon are at risk? Or are you just gambling?
So in a nut shell... some guy at the "Company" orders the diseased smolts to be grown out in the ocean net pen to protect profits. Roll the dice and see what happens.... DFO has your back.
Ask the east coast how that worked out for the cod fishery....
One last note...
Most of us that hang out on this site know a thing or two about salmon.
I've met a few here and know many anglers that don't read this site.
All in all I can't think of anyone that welcomes fish farms here in BC.
In fact we would like you to move your farms off the migration routes.
If you have a problem with that go back to Norway.....
As a guest here you have used up your welcome.
GLG
Seems to me this part say's it all
And then this little nugget...
So the questions are...
How did this virus get into the Dalrymple hatchery in Sayward... From wild salmon???
Like the Marine Harvest Lawyer seems to imply...... Not good if that is the truth.
You keep wild salmon up there too????
If the number 2 killer of farmed salmon is HSMI what virus is responsible?
You would think they would know after all it cost them plenty.
If they "proved" there is no link between HSMI and PRV can you supply a link to the science paper?
I'm not saying your full of BS but simply saying you have proof doesn't cut it with me.
Why is it up to the fish farms to say if it's safe to put diseased smolts from the Dalrymple hatchery in Sayward into a net pen salmon farm on the Fraser sockeye migration route. What the heck are my tax dollars doing at DFO if they are not watching or making rules about what goes into the ocean? You realize that wild salmon are at risk? Or are you just gambling?
So in a nut shell... some guy at the "Company" orders the diseased smolts to be grown out in the ocean net pen to protect profits. Roll the dice and see what happens.... DFO has your back.
Ask the east coast how that worked out for the cod fishery....
One last note...
Most of us that hang out on this site know a thing or two about salmon.
I've met a few here and know many anglers that don't read this site.
All in all I can't think of anyone that welcomes fish farms here in BC.
In fact we would like you to move your farms off the migration routes.
If you have a problem with that go back to Norway.....
As a guest here you have used up your welcome.
GLG
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ta-on-bc-salmon-farms-report/article19192479/
Ottawa withholding data on B.C. salmon farms: report
Mark Hume
VANCOUVER — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jun. 16 2014, 8:35 PM EDT
Last updated Monday, Jun. 16 2014, 8:35 PM EDT
The federal government is hampering scientific research on fish diseases by refusing to release all of the data gathered from salmon farms on the West Coast, a new report by the University of Victoria has concluded.
“The basic issue is that government fails to disclose exactly where diseases have broken out, and only releases such extremely generalized information when it’s too late to be useful,” the report says. “This needs to change.”
More Related to this Story
• First Nations fishers fed up with government inaction on salmon inquiry http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...urge-action-on-salmon-stocks/article18901535/
• Group wants probe of B.C. salmon farms http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...nts-probe-of-bc-salmon-farms/article18817899/
• Ministers say salmon not being restored in Fraser River http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ing-restored-in-fraser-river/article18789252/
Video
Video: Is smoked salmon a health risk? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/life-video/video-is-smoked-salmon-a-health-risk/article18239910/
Video
Video: Wolves fish for salmon in images captured by remote-controlled camera http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-by-remote-controlled-camera/article15280656/
Watch
Video: Is B.C.’s commercial salmon fishery skirting regulations? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...fishery-skirting-regulations/article13796100/
B.C. has about 114 salmon farming sites, and they are required to report disease incidents. But while the Canadian Food Inspection Agency makes some of that data public, it withholds the specific locations of reports, and the data are released too slowly, the report states. “Public reporting of even the most serious reportable diseases is routinely delayed – and does not identify where the disease took place, other than to generally identify that it took place at some unspecified location in a named province,” states the report by Sam Harrison, a law student, and Calvin Sandborn, legal director of UVic’s Environmental Law Centre.
“Canadian independent scientists who want to research a disease outbreak get no useful information from these public reports,” the study says. “The lack of site specificity and the delayed nature of the reporting make the information in the reports virtually useless to independent parties. … Unfortunately, this seriously limits society’s ability to identify and contain disease outbreaks originating on fish farms.”
Mr. Sandborn called it another example of how bad Canada’s environmental laws are compared to those of other countries. “The Norwegian companies that run B.C. fish farms face full disclosure of disease outbreaks at their Norwegian operations – but in Canada, the government keeps such outbreaks secret,” he said.
He called on Ottawa to match the data release standards in major fish farming countries such as Norway and Scotland.
Mr. Sandborn said the study was done on behalf of the Wuikinuxv First Nation, which is concerned that diseases may have spread from fish farms to wild stocks in its territory on the Central Coast.
“The Wuikinuxv are very concerned that they can’t get the very kind of basic information about where disease outbreaks are happening, so there’s no opportunity for independent scientists to look into the issues and to see if there is possible transmission to migrating wild salmon,” he said.
Dave Rolson, fisheries manager for the Wuikinuxv, said there are “unconfirmed reports” infectious salmon anaemia (ISA) was detected in wild salmon that return to Owikeno Lake. And he said ISA was also reported among fish the Fraser Valley’s Cultus Lake.
Although the two lakes are far apart, both have severely depressed sockeye runs, and Mr. Rolson said it raises questions about whether ISA is to blame and if it might have originated in farms. He said if the government released more immediate, site-specific data, First Nations in regions where a disease was reported could look for it in wild salmon. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency declined to make a spokesperson available, but said in an e-mail that while it has not seen the UVic report, the government agency “is committed to enhance transparency and will take the report’s recommendations under consideration.”Jeremy Dunn, executive director of the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association, said his group endorses the call to make disease data public.
“We support the release of fish health information. We’ve asked our regulator to release that information and we understand that DFO’s working on releasing a greater detail of fish health information,” he said. “Obviously the CFIA has their own release [standards] with respect to just certain diseases and we support being transparent and putting up the information for the public.”
Follow Mark Hume on Twitter: @markhumeglobe
Ottawa withholding data on B.C. salmon farms: report
Mark Hume
VANCOUVER — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jun. 16 2014, 8:35 PM EDT
Last updated Monday, Jun. 16 2014, 8:35 PM EDT
The federal government is hampering scientific research on fish diseases by refusing to release all of the data gathered from salmon farms on the West Coast, a new report by the University of Victoria has concluded.
“The basic issue is that government fails to disclose exactly where diseases have broken out, and only releases such extremely generalized information when it’s too late to be useful,” the report says. “This needs to change.”
More Related to this Story
• First Nations fishers fed up with government inaction on salmon inquiry http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...urge-action-on-salmon-stocks/article18901535/
• Group wants probe of B.C. salmon farms http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...nts-probe-of-bc-salmon-farms/article18817899/
• Ministers say salmon not being restored in Fraser River http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ing-restored-in-fraser-river/article18789252/
Video
Video: Is smoked salmon a health risk? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/life-video/video-is-smoked-salmon-a-health-risk/article18239910/
Video
Video: Wolves fish for salmon in images captured by remote-controlled camera http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-by-remote-controlled-camera/article15280656/
Watch
Video: Is B.C.’s commercial salmon fishery skirting regulations? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...fishery-skirting-regulations/article13796100/
B.C. has about 114 salmon farming sites, and they are required to report disease incidents. But while the Canadian Food Inspection Agency makes some of that data public, it withholds the specific locations of reports, and the data are released too slowly, the report states. “Public reporting of even the most serious reportable diseases is routinely delayed – and does not identify where the disease took place, other than to generally identify that it took place at some unspecified location in a named province,” states the report by Sam Harrison, a law student, and Calvin Sandborn, legal director of UVic’s Environmental Law Centre.
“Canadian independent scientists who want to research a disease outbreak get no useful information from these public reports,” the study says. “The lack of site specificity and the delayed nature of the reporting make the information in the reports virtually useless to independent parties. … Unfortunately, this seriously limits society’s ability to identify and contain disease outbreaks originating on fish farms.”
Mr. Sandborn called it another example of how bad Canada’s environmental laws are compared to those of other countries. “The Norwegian companies that run B.C. fish farms face full disclosure of disease outbreaks at their Norwegian operations – but in Canada, the government keeps such outbreaks secret,” he said.
He called on Ottawa to match the data release standards in major fish farming countries such as Norway and Scotland.
Mr. Sandborn said the study was done on behalf of the Wuikinuxv First Nation, which is concerned that diseases may have spread from fish farms to wild stocks in its territory on the Central Coast.
“The Wuikinuxv are very concerned that they can’t get the very kind of basic information about where disease outbreaks are happening, so there’s no opportunity for independent scientists to look into the issues and to see if there is possible transmission to migrating wild salmon,” he said.
Dave Rolson, fisheries manager for the Wuikinuxv, said there are “unconfirmed reports” infectious salmon anaemia (ISA) was detected in wild salmon that return to Owikeno Lake. And he said ISA was also reported among fish the Fraser Valley’s Cultus Lake.
Although the two lakes are far apart, both have severely depressed sockeye runs, and Mr. Rolson said it raises questions about whether ISA is to blame and if it might have originated in farms. He said if the government released more immediate, site-specific data, First Nations in regions where a disease was reported could look for it in wild salmon. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency declined to make a spokesperson available, but said in an e-mail that while it has not seen the UVic report, the government agency “is committed to enhance transparency and will take the report’s recommendations under consideration.”Jeremy Dunn, executive director of the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association, said his group endorses the call to make disease data public.
“We support the release of fish health information. We’ve asked our regulator to release that information and we understand that DFO’s working on releasing a greater detail of fish health information,” he said. “Obviously the CFIA has their own release [standards] with respect to just certain diseases and we support being transparent and putting up the information for the public.”
Follow Mark Hume on Twitter: @markhumeglobe
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A new report released by the Environmental Law Clinic: http://www.elc.uvic.ca/press/documents/2014-01-10FishFarmDiseaseDisclosureReport.pdf
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Ummm, so far I have not seen any evidence presented that showed those smolts actually had PRV - other than Ms. Morton's claim based on an anonymous source.
You guys are pretty far into the tinfoil hat zone.
And, we're not "guests".
"We" are all part of the BC coast.
Pretty funny watching the "Captain's Chair" Fish pathologists come out of the woodwork...
You guys have a good night - tight lines tomorrow, go whack a few for me.
seascene
Crew Member
Alaska has no fish farms. Alaskan wild salmon are in abundance like the old days. Alaskans view mass production of packed in feedlot fish the same as an infestation of rats in a grocery store. Go back to Norway. It is sheer insanity to put wild salmon at risk. It took millions of years for this species to thrive. There is no long haul here just an inexcusable pending disaster.
"You guys have a good night - tight lines tomorrow, go whack a few for me".
You must be joking.
"You guys have a good night - tight lines tomorrow, go whack a few for me".
You must be joking.
cuttlefish
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't mind getting more info about these outbreaks; http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...icaemia-2014-/eng/1396452410303/1396452411272
Know anything about those reports, CK? If not the herring then how about the Atlantics? Can you ask the BCSFA to find out which farm in BC and share with the public?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
This whole, "Go back to Norway" idea is getting a little old.
Here's a little history: http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/pdf/history_of_salmon_farming.pdf
For about the first half of the 4 decades farms have been on the coast, they were predominately BC owned, "mom and pop" operations.
The really funny thing is the bulk of the old regurgitated, "I remember seeing..." flack was due to poor practices, and a steep learning curve for local BC farmers.
The current operations run by BC men and women, and primarily owned by a few large enterprises based in Norway, are run to an extraordinarily higher standard - with tighter regulations and advanced biological and scientific understanding.
Here's a little history: http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/pdf/history_of_salmon_farming.pdf
For about the first half of the 4 decades farms have been on the coast, they were predominately BC owned, "mom and pop" operations.
The really funny thing is the bulk of the old regurgitated, "I remember seeing..." flack was due to poor practices, and a steep learning curve for local BC farmers.
The current operations run by BC men and women, and primarily owned by a few large enterprises based in Norway, are run to an extraordinarily higher standard - with tighter regulations and advanced biological and scientific understanding.
GLG
Well-Known Member
If that true why don't you show us the health records for this crop.
nice try.... questions getting a little hot? need to pull out the tin foil hat card...
Nice try.. you are owned by Norway, plain and simple.
The state owned company is a guest in Canada.
You have TFW working there and I can only assume they are from Norway.
Perhaps you can fill in the details and let us know.
Your owners need to get your farms off the migration routes or go home.
You what to move to Norway? well that's your choice.
You think this is funny?
I don't.. this is serious stuff here...
GLG
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Temporary Foreign Workers? From Norway?
This is serious stuff here - stuff that is being researched by serious scientists, with serious training in virology, fish pathology, and genomics.
Unfortunately, it is the self-appointed, self-trained, and self-important few who seem to be making claims beyond their scope of understanding in an effort to further their anti-aquaculture agenda.
I can see by your tagline that all you need is a basic understanding of a process to generate your opinion, but the reality is there are countless other factors that come into play when dealing with natural processes.
On March 26th 2014 - there was a VHS outbreak: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...icaemia-2014-/eng/1396452410303/1396452411272
CFIA hides where this happened.
VHS or viral haemorrhagic septicaemia - is another viral disease. herring -especially the younger year classes - are very susceptible to it. The Provincial Fish Vet Gary Marty thinks it is good that herring get this disease:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...atens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/
"Dr. Marty said limited outbreaks of the two diseases are not necessarily a bad thing.
“In some respect for the population it’s actually good to have small outbreaks, often because even though it may kill a few individual fish, the survivors are then immune from the disease and actually the population can be stronger as a result,” he said."
He's the same guy who tried to hide the ISA briefing note.
Yet - on the paper he was the lead author of (http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/f03-109?origin=publication_detail) - it states on p.1263: "The best population model provides evidence that disease impairs recruitment."
and that the 2 lowest recruitment estimates on record (1994 and 1999) followed followed mortality events in 1993 and 1998.
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If you are referring to the pro-farm lobby - there is also serious ******** and lying going on from those seriously trained in the art of PR and bafflegab. Democracy is supposed to work by the public getting involved in the decision-making process CK Too bad that you and your industry are so threatened by that process and try to demean their serious input.
I also noticed you ignored most of GLGs questions and neglected to either read or acknowledge the peer-reviewed articles I posted.
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GLG
Well-Known Member
Have a look for yourself
Zoom in on this map to Campbell River and check it out.
http://ntfw.ca/map-companies-hiring-temporary-foreign-workers/
Care to explain why you need TFW?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
I'm a faculty member in a microbiology department and I have extensive experience in virology and genomics (more than 20 years of research experience in genomics). I'm convinced that the currently available peer reviewed data shows that fish farms sited near terminal fisheries not only can but likely have increased wild fish mortality. What's your extensive science background? More importantly, serious scientists don't hide their data from public scrutiny but rather are so confident of all their data that they make it publicly available. Why is it that both the fish farms and their government protectors are so interested in hiding important data? If there's really no problem, let everyone see the identified disease outbreaks and their location in real time. Let the government researchers speak freely to media. That level of transparency will only help to make the case the industry hopes to make (unless of course the data indicates actual problems). Keep hiding the data and stifling scientific discussion and the industry will only further raise suspicions.
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ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and sometimes I come here to express mine - which I feel is supported by decades of observations and associated data collected in and around salmon farms.
As a fisherman myself, I am very aware of the fact that every salmon I kill will not spawn - There is an impact on the population.
Having worked at lodges in the past, where groups of 60, or 70 fishermen limited out on nearly every species, every 4 days, almost all season long - I am VERY aware that sportfishing is a significant pressure on wild stocks.
I put literally tonnes of salmon on planes and helicopters over my time in the INDUSTRY, and I still have the carpal tunnel to show for it.
To have active participants in this practice come on here and spout off about "Might's", "Could's", "May's", "Potentially's", and "Likely's" - without having any documented evidence of an aquaculture related decline in wild stocks after nearly 40 years....
Well, let's just say it rings a little hollow and reeks of self-righteous hipocracy.
Fear is one thing, but it needs to be balanced with recognition of management, and the need for economic diversity on this massive, beautiful coast we all share.
As a fisherman myself, I am very aware of the fact that every salmon I kill will not spawn - There is an impact on the population.
Having worked at lodges in the past, where groups of 60, or 70 fishermen limited out on nearly every species, every 4 days, almost all season long - I am VERY aware that sportfishing is a significant pressure on wild stocks.
I put literally tonnes of salmon on planes and helicopters over my time in the INDUSTRY, and I still have the carpal tunnel to show for it.
To have active participants in this practice come on here and spout off about "Might's", "Could's", "May's", "Potentially's", and "Likely's" - without having any documented evidence of an aquaculture related decline in wild stocks after nearly 40 years....
Well, let's just say it rings a little hollow and reeks of self-righteous hipocracy.
Fear is one thing, but it needs to be balanced with recognition of management, and the need for economic diversity on this massive, beautiful coast we all share.
Thanks for aptly demonstrating another well-used tactic by pro-farm pundits, James - misdirection. Along with shooting the messenger - this is commonly the best or only response one gets from serious science-based questions from your industry. Is this how you get your moniker "SUSTAINABILITY" officer? You "sustain" the dialogue into emotional drama - rather than answering the question?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
It is called, "Context".
It is commonly what opponents of an industry remove in order to insert, "Fear".
Here's another one, I know you love these...
Gunsmith
Well-Known Member
I can't speak so much about aquaculture, but the concentration of fish in a small area does not allow nature to handle certain issues such as disease and and accumulation of fecal matter. They more or less do provide a rich area for disease to develop and mutate in.
In Alberta we are now dealing with Cronic Wasting Disease which is in the wild deer in the east side of the province. We have been trying to control this with little success. The next step would be to mutate and transfer to humans as the mad cow did. These all have originated in game farms, stock yard and the providing humans with food in the factory style farming.
Needless to say this is where I have formed my opinion about this.
You might point out that I am from Alberta and we are responsible for the oilsands fiasco, true enough, this has also suffered from the greedy push to make lots of money supposedly to provide the populace with the required gas and oil to heat and travel and jobs.
Different pile same material, fecal matter of the worst kind.
In Alberta we are now dealing with Cronic Wasting Disease which is in the wild deer in the east side of the province. We have been trying to control this with little success. The next step would be to mutate and transfer to humans as the mad cow did. These all have originated in game farms, stock yard and the providing humans with food in the factory style farming.
Needless to say this is where I have formed my opinion about this.
You might point out that I am from Alberta and we are responsible for the oilsands fiasco, true enough, this has also suffered from the greedy push to make lots of money supposedly to provide the populace with the required gas and oil to heat and travel and jobs.
Different pile same material, fecal matter of the worst kind.
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Hmmm....
First you started out by saying that no one here has the necessary expertise to really question the science. Then when presented with expertise, a question about your expertise and a question about industry and governmental transparency when it comes to the data, you state (without cited research to back it up) that there is no evidence that your industry causes harm. Then you accuse others of "cherry picking" and, as was pointed out, distract from the questions that were asked of you. Since you like cute images better than substantive debate -
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