DFO 2020 Halibut Fishery Announcement & Regs

Halibut are managed to an assigned TAC - 15% of Canada's TAC. Whereas, rec salmon are managed to an "expected catch." Expected catch doesn't have a set limit, where once reached the fishery closes. Halibut under TAC management are fished until the set TAC is caught, then the fishery closes. Under that situation how do you assign a TAC to a specific PFMA area? Especially when the fleet is mobile and many participants travel from various areas. How do you assign or divide up TAC among various areas without creating significant infighting? I think it would create a wonderful blood sport for those into that sort of thing. So the whole idea isn't practical, would divide the community and lead to significant challenges even completing catch monitoring could become a cluster - incentives for people not to be honest about catch reporting in order to keep "their area" open.
I agree with you with alot of the points but main one is NOW we are only allowed 6 fish So that argument of people travelling all over to get the so called fish is kinda mute really. People now as you know will go to a spot to get as many fish as they can in the shortest time , they want it all Halibut, salmon, ling, quilback, prawns, crab all in one trip and if it takes 2 or 3 trips to "stock" up they will why do you think the certain spots people want to go to more then others. alot do not go for the "sport" of sport fishing they want MEAT to justify them spending that money .... You only have to go look at these so called spots where they say I want to "fill my cooler" You see it and we all live it....
 
I agree with you with alot of the points but main one is NOW we are only allowed 6 fish So that argument of people travelling all over to get the so called fish is kinda mute really. People now as you know will go to a spot to get as many fish as they can in the shortest time , they want it all Halibut, salmon, ling, quilback, prawns, crab all in one trip and if it takes 2 or 3 trips to "stock" up they will why do you think the certain spots people want to go to more then others. alot do not go for the "sport" of sport fishing they want MEAT to justify them spending that money .... You only have to go look at these so called spots where they say I want to "fill my cooler" You see it and we all live it....

You understand if you went to a sub-area system your season wouldn't be open from March till fall. As a result your fellow guides/anglers that fish in late spring,summer and fall in sooke/vic would not be able to fish.

If it is not shared you would be looking at maybe a few months opening at most. Just saying. Is that something you would like to gamble with? There isn't enough TAC to do what you are suggesting, and I agree with Searun people will just go elsewhere.

Also who determines how much % TAC is allowed each area? How do you distribute that? Who decides? How can that be done fairly?
 
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You understand if you went to a sub-area system your season wouldn't be open from March till fall. As a result your fellow guides/anglers that fish in late spring,summer and fall in sooke/vic would not be able to fish.

If it is not shared you would be looking at maybe a few months opening at most. Just saying. Is that something you would like to gamble with? There isn't enough TAC to do what you are suggesting, and I agree with Searun people will just go elsewhere.

Also who determines how much % TAC is allowed each area? How do you distribute that? Who decides? How can that be done fairly?
What are you talking about? Where did Roy say any of that? Where did you get SVI guys want a 3 month season?
 
UUUMMMM UUUMMM where did I say any of that Jarrod? I was stating what has happened where the "gold rush" mentality was?/is ...I have no clue what you are talking about bud ...if you READ what I said I agreed with alot of the points. are you ok????
 
I’m honestly not trying to be a dick but seems you are just **** disturbing SV..... no one said svi anglers want a 2 or 3 or less month season although you seem to interpret that. Roy didn’t say anything about what you referred to. I have no clue what you are on about honestly and although I don’t know you personally but I have seen you around enough to know you fish.....so what gives?
 
You guys are bizarre now why would I want a 3 month season in place I get my halibut??

My comments were if you care to read them again is every year the same people complain that the TAC (they know who they are) isn't getting utilized properly. Look at the thread. If you go up that thread you will see we were talking about why halibut couldn't be managed area by area. If we managed it area by area then yes SVI could have a short season as with others, and of course I wouldn't want that.

People will always move elsewhere, and effort will shift.

There is no need to imply I am on something if you don't agree my opinion.
 
I agree with you with alot of the points but main one is NOW we are only allowed 6 fish So that argument of people travelling all over to get the so called fish is kinda mute really. People now as you know will go to a spot to get as many fish as they can in the shortest time , they want it all Halibut, salmon, ling, quilback, prawns, crab all in one trip and if it takes 2 or 3 trips to "stock" up they will why do you think the certain spots people want to go to more then others. alot do not go for the "sport" of sport fishing they want MEAT to justify them spending that money .... You only have to go look at these so called spots where they say I want to "fill my cooler" You see it and we all live it....

Sorry, I guess I didn't make my point well on Coast Wide vs Area Based Halibut Management.

Not clear to me how the 6 fish limit fits into that. Despite that, here's the rationale behind it. The purpose behind the 6 fish was simply to act as a catch engine on the speed at which we use the TAC in an effort to stretch out the season. Slot limits also achieve the same result and were implemented for the same reason.

I'm still at a loss to understand how moving to an Area Based approach would actually make things better or easier. First problem is determining some simple way to spread out TAC if we assigned it to each PFMA Area. That would also be a massive challenge requiring different regulations. The Condition of License attached to your license would be pages long unless all areas adopted the same rules....oh, sounds like coast-wide, sorry.

We also have issues with some areas being invaded by US charter boats from Neah Bay before the border closed - the first control effort approach requiring them to buy a license in Canada was an epic fail. Now we have sports stores in BC selling paper licenses over social media and mailing them south to the Neah Bay operators as a way they can skirt the rules aimed to address US charter operators abusing Canada's TAC. There are efforts underway to address this through a requirement for all non-residents landing their catch in Canada as a Condition of License. If we went to Area Based management, these sorts of issues could have significant implications for affected areas, whereas coastwide approach spreads the painful impact.

Concerned that folks who seem to think we can divide up Canada's TAC among all the PFMA's will find out after the fact that if we went down that road we would quickly discover some of the pitfalls. The simplest one being how to approach the chore of actually deciding how you fairly divide a fixed allocation amoung all the areas. Another being the impact on catch monitoring would be immediate - everyone would be incentivized to under-report catch for obvious reasons. And, for those areas that are busy spots due to popularity or ease of access, well those areas would have very short seasons possibly leading to unanticipated economic consequences for local service providers and community economies.

I doubt very much there is a convincing business case that would convince the majority of us to move to an Area Based management approach.

Some of these things aren't as easy to sort out as they seem on the surface.
 
You guys are bizarre now why would I want a 3 month season in place I get my halibut??

My comments were if you care to read them again is every year the same people complain that the TAC (they know who they are) isn't getting utilized properly. Look at the thread. If you go up that thread you will see we were talking about why halibut couldn't be managed area by area. If we managed it area by area then yes SVI could have a short season as with others, and of course I wouldn't want that.

People will always move elsewhere, and effort will shift.

There is no need to imply I am on something if you don't agree my opinion.
“On about”
as in what you are going on about. No implication. I try to read your posts and be objective but they don’t make sense
 

We also have issues with some areas being invaded by US charter boats from Neah Bay before the border closed - the first control effort approach requiring them to buy a license in Canada was an epic fail. Now we have sports stores in BC selling paper licenses over social media and mailing them south to the Neah Bay operators as a way they can skirt the rules aimed to address US charter operators abusing Canada's TAC. There are efforts underway to address this through a requirement for all non-residents landing their catch in Canada as a Condition of License. If we went to Area Based management, these sorts of issues could have significant implications for affected areas, whereas coastwide approach spreads the painful impact.
Another example that supports the suggestion that it is time to look seriously at working towards a refined version of the XRQ for Non Canadian residents that wish to retain a Halibut from Canadian waters.

How would it work? What would the benefits be?

Key points:

: Put more of the Canadian recreational TAC back in the hands of Canadian anglers by making it mandatory for all non resident anglers wishing to retain Halibut to obtain quota through a modified version of the XRQ. This would be regardless of the trips point of origin.

: Simplify logistics by making the new XRQ exclusive to non resident anglers. The option of XRQ no longer offered or needed for Canadian anglers to access Canadian Halibut.

: Eliminate much of the division by making it such that the non resident quota only allows non resident XRQ anglers to fish under the same regulations that govern the Canadian recreational Halibut season for that license year. No more buying ones way out of following the recreational regulations.

: Provide incentive for anglers both foreign and domestic to keep coming and utilizing Canadian service providers. The additional available recreational quota freed up would allow for more appealing regulations. By establishing that XRQ quota falls under the same regulations as resident anglers this would benefit both resident and non resident Halibut anglers.

: make better the process of tracking and confirming quota is reconciled by attaching dates for the usage of quota leased.(Similar to single or 5 day license) .

: Assist in ensuring Halibut is not mistakenly charged against recreational quota by applying a short time period to have quota reconciled after trip. Intent is to get data to dfo in a timely manner so it can be correctly applied and not assumed to be recreational quota. Lots to think about on this one. What consequences could be attached to insure this happens???

The closed borders of 2020 has clearly shown that there is a substantial amount of our TAC retained by non resident anglers.

Implementing some version of this would leave the Canadian fishers , both non guided and guided alike the full 15% to base a season on. One might say we already have the entire 15% to work with. Almost true, except a very small portion of the angling population uses that access to provide opportunity to non residents . This inevitably results in a substantial amount of our TAC being utilized by a very small and specific amount of Canadian business operators. Effectively this gives cause to severely restrict everyone’s access, foreign and domestic alike .

I know the historical thinking on things like this is that it immediately provokes the fear and assumption that revenue and jobs would be lost and relationships damaged. I would argue, (based on past results of changes that have come in our fishery to date,) that it would be far less than it may be thought to be. Might be prudent to consider that the more generous regulations generated would be insensitive enough to alleviate much of that .

Anyway I am seeking data on how much has historically been harvested by non residents to add to what we saw in 2020. So I can put more accurate perspective to this.

If anyone has such data or the email to whom I can get it from I would appreciate a Pm with that info.
 
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Are we getting the mini-season before March 31 this year?
 
Another example that supports the suggestion that it is time to look seriously at working towards a refined version of the XRQ for Non Canadian residents that wish to retain a Halibut from Canadian waters.

How would it work? What would the benefits be?

Key points:

: Put more of the Canadian recreational TAC back in the hands of Canadian anglers by making it mandatory for all non resident anglers wishing to retain Halibut to obtain quota through a modified version of the XRQ. This would be regardless of the trips point of origin.

: Simplify logistics by making the new XRQ exclusive to non resident anglers. The option of XRQ no longer offered or needed for Canadian anglers to access Canadian Halibut.

: Eliminate much of the division by making it such that the non resident quota only allows non resident XRQ anglers to fish under the same regulations that govern the Canadian recreational Halibut season for that license year. No more buying ones way out of following the recreational regulations.

: Provide incentive for anglers both foreign and domestic to keep coming and utilizing Canadian service providers. The additional available recreational quota freed up would allow for more appealing regulations. By establishing that XRQ quota falls under the same regulations as resident anglers this would benefit both resident and non resident Halibut anglers.

: make better the process of tracking and confirming quota is reconciled by attaching dates for the usage of quota leased.(Similar to single or 5 day license) .

: Assist in ensuring Halibut is not mistakenly charged against recreational quota by applying a short time period to have quota reconciled after trip. Intent is to get data to dfo in a timely manner so it can be correctly applied and not assumed to be recreational quota. Lots to think about on this one. What consequences could be attached to insure this happens???

The closed borders of 2020 has clearly shown that there is a substantial amount of our TAC retained by non resident anglers.

Implementing some version of this would leave the Canadian fishers , both non guided and guided alike the full 15% to base a season on. One might say we already have the entire 15% to work with. Almost true, except a very small portion of the angling population uses that access to provide opportunity to non residents . This inevitably results in a substantial amount of our TAC being utilized by a very small and specific amount of Canadian business operators. Effectively this gives cause to severely restrict everyone’s access, foreign and domestic alike .

I know the historical thinking on things like this is that it immediately provokes the fear and assumption that revenue and jobs would be lost and relationships damaged. I would argue, (based on past results of changes that have come in our fishery to date,) that it would be far less than it may be thought to be. Might be prudent to consider that the more generous regulations generated would be insensitive enough to alleviate much of that .

Anyway I am seeking data on how much has historically been harvested by non residents to add to what we saw in 2020. So I can put more accurate perspective to this.

If anyone has such data or the email to whom I can get it from I would appreciate a Pm with that info.
My personal view is XRQ is a poorly designed and implemented experiment. 2020 saw it close, and 2021 will be the same given Covid. We can't support it as it helps monetize access IMO. Bad for us. I see some issues with crafting this as the only mechanism through which US fishers could access Canadian TAC in our waters. The issue with cross border shopping from Neah Bay is US based charter operators are accessing and benefiting from Canada's TAC - why would we allow that? Canada gains nothing by allowing it. So far everyone is turning a blind eye to this issue - we should be pushing hard to protect Canada's TAC where interlopers are running their charter operations across the border.
 
Are we getting the mini-season before March 31 this year?
Yes it will be exactly the same regulations as 2020 until April 1. Discussing now at IPHC the season length. Some interesting thoughts regarding 12 month season, but who knows where that will end up. Likely a March start for both commercial and recreational.
 
My personal view is XRQ is a poorly designed and implemented experiment. 2020 saw it close, and 2021 will be the same given Covid. We can't support it as it helps monetize access IMO. Bad for us. I see some issues with crafting this as the only mechanism through which US fishers could access Canadian TAC in our waters. The issue with cross border shopping from Neah Bay is US based charter operators are accessing and benefiting from Canada's TAC - why would we allow that? Canada gains nothing by allowing it. So far everyone is turning a blind eye to this issue - we should be pushing hard to protect Canada's TAC where interlopers are running their charter operations across the border.

I do agree that it is poorly designed and implemented. I also agree that it is bad for us to monetize access for Canadians to access Canadian TAC . Not bad for us to monetize foreign anglers access if done as suggested through commercial quota that is designed to be exported anyway.

To be fair I would remind everyone how willing the Group was to explore and pursue the notion of getting the user fee rules rearranged to allow for the use of funds generated by requiring residents to purchase a Halibut stamp or increased resident license fees, The purpose of which is to use those funds to purchase quota outright from the commercial sector so Canadian recreational anglers could have better access.
No support from me on this one . Bad idea from the get go.
That to me shows a willingness to monetize Canadian access to Canadian TAC.

There are also those in our angling community that have been backed into feeling like the only way to meet their clientele’s needs was to further monetize access by taking part in the flawed XRQ we have in place now. Many of them are quite happy to pay the extra to improve the likelihood of harvesting I nice fish.

I would also be interested to hear how much resistance there would be from the SFAB,SFI, WCFGA, and others to the idea of making all foreign anglers be required to use a local guide to access our Halibut TAC.?
I have heard this floating around out there a bit
over the last few years as well. No support from me on this one either. Seems like a big can of worms. Haven’t given it much thought to be fair.


No doubt there would be issues . I would think much would be dictated by the level of support it had going in.

I think if done thoughtfully it could address a lot of issues that the current set up presents. It would get the tac in the hands of the many it is intended for instead of the few benefiting from it now. In thinking about it again , The US charters on Canadian water and Tac needs a much more aggressive plan and enforcement.No idea what that would look like. The requirement for all non residents to have leased quota from commercial Tac might actually aid in that endeavour though.

To close, I am still hoping to get the data on how much is taken by non residents. In the absence of that the correct person and email in DFO to ask. I have an email in to my local chair asking for the same. Had hoped this forum could have been a shortcut to getting it.
 
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You won't get any data on who actually uses the XRQ - it is the service provider who buys it and charges the client, or in cases of non-guided persons it falls to them to make their own arrangements. Like I said, very poorly constructed program that has to go.

The issue we face on the Southern VI is unique in that by a fact of geography, the Neah Bay guides can make arrangements with unscrupulous tackle store owners who will act as mules in the illegal trade of obtaining licenses for Neah Bay guide clients who can in turn remove the need for their guests to travel all the way up to BC to obtain their licenses legally - then sell a charter departing and returning to Neah Bay. Simple strategy, all aimed at abusing Canada's recreational TAC. Also responsible for pushing up our use of TAC considerably in Area 121.

Canada tried to address this by making it a requirement for non-residents who retain halibut to purchase their licenses in Canada - no electronic sold licenses qualify for non-residents to retain halibut in Area 121 and 123 unless they are purchased in Canada - the system captures the IP Address to allow tracking. So this little work around is hugely problematic, and with Covid border restrictions possibly coming off, the door yet again opens for this work around.

The problem has been identified to DFO via the SFAB, so hoping progress can be made to make a simple Condition of License requiring halibut to be landed in Canada - prohibits a vessel trip here to fish for halibut, and return without actually landing. Close the loop-hole. Its far, far larger than XRQ.

Sorry for the rant, I possibly dislike this loop hole more than XRQ - imagine that.
 
You won't get any data on who actually uses the XRQ - it is the service provider who buys it and charges the client, or in cases of non-guided persons it falls to them to make their own arrangements. Like I said, very poorly constructed program that has to go.

The issue we face on the Southern VI is unique in that by a fact of geography, the Neah Bay guides can make arrangements with unscrupulous tackle store owners who will act as mules in the illegal trade of obtaining licenses for Neah Bay guide clients who can in turn remove the need for their guests to travel all the way up to BC to obtain their licenses legally - then sell a charter departing and returning to Neah Bay. Simple strategy, all aimed at abusing Canada's recreational TAC. Also responsible for pushing up our use of TAC considerably in Area 121.

Canada tried to address this by making it a requirement for non-residents who retain halibut to purchase their licenses in Canada - no electronic sold licenses qualify for non-residents to retain halibut in Area 121 and 123 unless they are purchased in Canada - the system captures the IP Address to allow tracking. So this little work around is hugely problematic, and with Covid border restrictions possibly coming off, the door yet again opens for this work around.

The problem has been identified to DFO via the SFAB, so hoping progress can be made to make a simple Condition of License requiring halibut to be landed in Canada - prohibits a vessel trip here to fish for halibut, and return without actually landing. Close the loop-hole. Its far, far larger than XRQ.

Sorry for the rant, I possibly dislike this loop hole more than XRQ - imagine that.
Actually that is not the data I am asking for.
What I am trying to get my hands on is data on or info specifically on how much TAC is used by non resident anglers???

You get no argument from me on disliking the XRQ. I think I have been pretty clear on how I feel about it over the years. Hate and disgust are two words to describe my feelings.
In case I was unclear,I am not suggesting the XRQ be used to accomplish what I suggested about non residents having to get commercial quota. I am just using it as an example for saying some improved version of it could provide the portal needed to complete the transaction for them. My thinking is that the legal base is already in place. It just would need to be modified as mentioned in earlier posts.

I am looking forward to hearing how things end up after the IPHC meetings. Will be nice to know what things will look like in the spring.
 
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How hard would it be for Canada to make it illegal to fish within Canadian waters unless launching from a Canadian port? Seems to me this would be the easiest solution to the Neah Bay access into Area 121 or similar issues elsewhere? Such a reg/law wouldn’t preclude foreigners from vacationing in Canada and recreational fishing, whether by hauling their own boat or chartering.

Given the diversity of our coast (including the associated sport fishery along it) and the fact there hasn’t been enough rec TAC to allow a coast wide, generic 1/2 (how easily we all forget the 2/3 days!) reg for over a decade, it continues to boggle my mind that our Rec group isn’t demanding Area-based regs to maximize the beneficial access to what little TAC we now have. Haida Gwaii, Rupert, the Bella’s, Hardy, WCVI, Victoria, etc have significantly different angling seasons, timing/#’s of tourists, ratio of guide/lodges to locals to non-locals, etc, etc. If TAC is enough for an easy coast-wide reg, fair enough as it’s simple and easy. With a TAC that requires max size, annual limits, trip limits, slots, etc, area-based regs and seasons would give best ”bang for buck” to maximize our beneficial access imho.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
Actually that is not the data I am asking for.
What I am trying to get my hands on is data on or info specifically on how much TAC is used by non resident anglers???

You get no argument from me on disliking the XRQ. I think I have been pretty clear on how I feel about it over the years. Hate and disgust are two words to describe my feelings.
In case I was unclear,I am not suggesting the XRQ be used to accomplish what I suggested about non residents having to get commercial quota. I am just using it as an example for saying some improved version of it could provide the portal needed to complete the transaction for them. My thinking is that the legal base is already in place. It just would need to be modified as mentioned in earlier posts.

I am looking forward to hearing how things end up after the IPHC meetings. Will be nice to know what things will look like in the spring.

Great Q Jencourt and I think you’ve already inferred why it’s so hard to track down this data - I don’t think itd be rec’d very well by the average Canadian rec angler! If you’re familiar with the historical harvest #s from the North Coast area (ie a very large portion of the overall rec harvest) as well as the # of lodges and charter companies in those areas, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if in some years the amount of Cdn rec TAC ending up in non-Cdn freezers was approaching 50% in some years.

With the closure of so many lodges, particularly in HG, over the past few years, it would be good data to have to estimate what effect tourism is likely to have on harvest rate as tourism ebbs and flows with the economy and other forces.

Cheers!

Ukee
 


anyone following the meetings? have they announced canada's allocation yet or is that typically saved for the last day.
Participating - the IPHC Commission annual meeting is still proceeding. The Commissioners will hear the Conference Board submissions tomorrow and then deliberate to reach a decision. Friday is when they will be announced. Don't expect any significant shockers.
 
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