"British Columbia First Nation" ?

Everywhere the british went in the name of the church always ended up the same way. Call it what you will, but genocide certainly works. When you know Smallpox kills Indians, and you give said Indians blankets from people who have died from smallpox. It would seem like a form of biological warfare. There are estimates that there where around 23 million Natives at the time of first contact. 200 years later there where about 2-3 million left. You do the Math.

Take only what you need.
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quote:Originally posted by alley cat

"Tonto" ? thats a cheap shot , your arguments may be valid but your lack of respect is not appreciated.
Canada did not legislate genocide like the US did against their native peoples , we do not appreciate your inferences.

AL
You bet it was! That was my intent! You want respect, then show others respect? And, I don't care if you appreciated it or not, if you want respect... don't play the "Race" card!

If YOU continually made "Racist" comments... guess what, I will attack you, too! And I don't care what color you are! I don't think we need that, do you?
quote:Originally posted by smiley66

Tonto was little harsh... You can argue the point but not that way.

Smiley66
Yep, you bet it was! Follow the threads! But?? if you want to jump in, then "jump in"... I don't have a problem there, but make sure you read all the "past" threads, before you do?

quote:Originally posted by hotrod

quote:Originally posted by alley cat

"Tonto" ? thats a cheap shot , your arguments may be valid but your lack of respect is not appreciated.
Canada did not legislate genocide like the US did against their native peoples , we do not appreciate your inferences.

AL

Wow! Tonto is way uncalled for! And your way wrong about Canada on this one. What they did was totally genocidal. The unjust towards the said Indians still goes on today!you just don't hear about it on the news! It's a tragedy.

Hotrod

all rights reserved with prejudice
What does, "all right reserved with predudice" mean?
Which, BTW... I know what it means!


Nope... when one acts like and idoit... then one very much can be an idiot? Canada, was not anymore genocidal than the U.S! In fact, I believe, the U.S. got the ideal from Canada, which was via the Hudson Bay Company? But, I would have to look that one up?

You guys are losing the point here? What we need to do is loose the racist, and the comments, etc, etc, and start working together to save our salmon, if we don't... they will go extinct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, BTW, just so there is NO doubt? When I see "racism", I will attack, and I don't care what color you are!
 
quote:Originally posted by hotrod

Enlighten me with your wisdom! What does it mean then?

Hotrod

all rights reserved with prejudice
It means, "all rights reserved with prejudice"! :D:D

You don't want to tell anyone! That's fine with me... that's your bag! But, if you try to sign a contract that way... You might have a bit of a problem, some day! :D:D


(1) that I explicitly reject any and all benefits of the Uniform
Commercial Code, absent a valid commercial agreement which
is in force and to which I am a party, and cite its
provisions herein only to serve notice upon ALL agencies of
government, whether international, national, state or local,
that they, and not I, are subject to, and bound by, all of
its provisions, whether cited herein or not;
(2) that My explicit reservation of Rights has served notice
upon ALL agencies of government of the "Remedy" which they
must provide for Me under Article 1, Section 207 of the
Uniform Commercial Code, whereby I have explicitly reserved
My Common Law Right not to be compelled to perform under any
contract or commercial agreement that I have not entered
into knowingly, voluntarily, and intentionally;
(3) that My explicit reservation of Rights has served notice
upon ALL agencies of government that they are ALL limited to
proceeding against Me only in harmony with the Common Law
and that I do not, and will not accept the liability
associated with the "compelled" benefit of any unrevealed
commercial agreements; and
(4) that My valid reservation of Rights has preserved all My
Rights and prevented the loss of any such Rights by
application of the concepts of waiver or estoppel.

All Rights Reserved
without Prejudice
 
Whenever I see this story repeated I'm compelled to respond to it.

The story:

"Everywhere the british went in the name of the church always ended up the same way. Call it what you will, but genocide certainly works. When you know Smallpox kills Indians, and you give said Indians blankets from people who have died from smallpox. It would seem like a form of biological warfare. There are estimates that there where around 23 million Natives at the time of first contact. 200 years later there where about 2-3 million left."

First, the "british" didn't go anywhere in the "name of the church." They went in the name of commerce, trade and enterprise. The "church" followed those successful exploits.

The Hudsons Bay Company and Northwest Trading Companies sent the first cross continent commercial explorer/traders and one of their major tenets was: You don't kill the people who are bringing you the furs you want to trade for.
DUH!!
The only time that smallpox infected blankets were used against natives was by the British during the Revolutionary War. They tried to infect the natives who were acting as guides and scouts for the Colonials who were fighting for their independence from Britain.
The smallpox epidemic of 1862 along our westcoast is well documented and we know how it got started, where it came from and how it was transported up the coast from Victoria.
Had nothing to do with any genocide nor infected blankets.
I really wish you westcoast natives would stop putting that story out there. I've heard it and variations of it too many times now to think it's accidental too.

Jag it in.

Take care.
 
anyhthing else?

Just so you know... all banks will NOT accept that statment. In fact, some will turn down your loan if you sign it that way! :D:D
 
Dave H must be in denile...

Here is just 1 example of written history on the subject.

1862 Small pox epidemic ravages Aboriginal People in BC. The Haida are almost wiped-out losing up to 80% of their kin. The Wet'suwet'en and Gitxsan lose 30% of their kin. Small pox epidemic spreads from Bella Coola to Nagwuntl'oo. One-third of the people died. In other Tsilhkot'en (Chilcotin) Villages, nine out of ten people died. The following

excerpt appears in the writings of Father Morice…



"...I myself saw the graves of perhaps 500 aboriginals...two white men...went and stealthily gathered the blankets of the dead which had been thrown away in the bush, and were therefore infested with small pox, which they sold out again to the aboriginal people without revealing their origin, thus causing a second visitation of the plague, which carried off the second third of the aboriginal population..."


Here's word's of someone who was actually there Dave, and this is just one small example, without looking too hard. There are societies amongst the first nations people who's religion is based upon the smallpox epidemic. The information is there if you wish to educate yourself.


This appears to be where the "Trend" started.

A common reaction to this story is that it has to be folklore. Giving infected blankets to the Indians--why, that's awful! That's disgusting! That's . . . ethnic cleansing. Hmm. Maybe this story bears a closer look.

Fact is, on at least one occasion a high-ranking European considered infecting the Indians with smallpox as a tactic of war. I'm talking about Lord Jeffrey Amherst, commander of British forces in North America during the French and Indian War (1756-'63). Amherst and a subordinate discussed, apparently seriously, sending infected blankets to hostile tribes. What's more, we've got the documents to prove it, thanks to the enterprising research of Peter d'Errico, legal studies professor at the University of Massachusetts at (fittingly) Amherst. D'Errico slogged through hundreds of reels of microfilmed correspondence looking for the smoking gun, and he found it.

The exchange took place during Pontiac's Rebellion, which broke out after the war, in 1763. Forces led by Pontiac, a chief of the Ottawa who had been allied with the French, laid siege to the English at Fort Pitt.

According to historian Francis Parkman, Amherst first raised the possibility of giving the Indians infected blankets in a letter to Colonel Henry Bouquet, who would lead reinforcements to Fort Pitt. No copy of this letter has come to light, but we do know that Bouquet discussed the matter in a postscript to a letter to Amherst on July 13, 1763:

P.S. I will try to inocculate the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard's Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine.

On July 16 Amherst replied, also in a postscript:

P.S. You will Do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race. I should be very glad your Scheme for Hunting them Down by Dogs could take Effect, but England is at too great a Distance to think of that at present.

On July 26 Bouquet wrote back:

I received yesterday your Excellency's letters of 16th with their Inclosures. The signal for Indian Messengers, and all your directions will be observed.

We don't know if Bouquet actually put the plan into effect, or if so with what result. We do know that a supply of smallpox-infected blankets was available, since the disease had broken out at Fort Pitt some weeks previously. We also know that the following spring smallpox was reported to be raging among the Indians in the vicinity.

To modern ears, this talk about infecting the natives with smallpox, hunting them down with dogs, etc., sounds over the top. But it's easy to believe Amherst and company were serious. D'Errico provides other quotes from Amherst's correspondence that suggest he considered Native Americans subhumans who ought to be exterminated.


All Rights Exorcised
without Prejudice
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quote:Originally posted by UNKNOWN

...when will there come a day when the kin folk of today stop playing the victim for the bygone history of our ancestors and move forward strong and without malice? I agree that it is time for change, equality and with opportunity for everyone to move toward prosperity.

Only individuals who recognize and can see the value in forging ahead for a more fertile life. These are the folks who will enjoy the prosperity of the future. Nothing is given without a reasonable expectation of success through vigilance and understanding.

You will either live and die wealthy or you will live and die poor - it is up to you as an individual to decide what path you shall take...all the glory be yours.

Dream one dream...plan a strategy - think positive and grow rich in life, love and prosperity.

It's yours FA, take it! However be prepared for the out come. The health of all humans and nature shall be at your hands...savor your treasure as the abundance trickles to the point of starvation for all species and every living thing shall shrivel to dust.

Your view of the future has no patrons, no customers or stock for you to sell...if all you do is take, how then will you provide, what will you do to ensure a safe balance?

Charlie has already asked previously, and now I too would like to know what is it that you are doing on a daily basis to provide a balance, regrowth for future abundance?

Equal working partnerships are what will survive, nothing less...we all must work together in order to provide this mutually equitable and long lasting future.

- UNKNOWN -

X2, well stated!


quote:Originally posted by The Fish Assassin

To modern ears, this talk about infecting the natives with smallpox, hunting them down with dogs, etc., sounds over the top. But it's easy to believe Amherst and company were serious. D'Errico provides other quotes from Amherst's correspondence that suggest he considered Native Americans subhumans who ought to be exterminated.
Duh.. have you ever been outside your "little" world? You think that only happened to Indians? Just in recent years, let me go back... Iraq, Germany, Japan, just to name the larger ones! And guess what, a lot of those exterminated... where WHITE! Which, were all considered subhumans, by the people who exterminated them. Those countries and nations seem to be able to get over it, why can't you?

quote:Originally posted by The Fish Assassin

All Rights Exorcised
without Prejudice
Are you sure you know what you just said?:D
 
If there's on thing about your trash talk is you're backinig it up! :D
Don't need a loan as there is no money and indians don't have money either! Do you know where that is from?

Lovin it and hating it at the same time! Cheers! And thanks for the advice I already know!

Hotrod
all rights reserved
 
FA posted:

"1862 Small pox epidemic ravages Aboriginal People in BC. The Haida are almost wiped-out losing up to 80% of their kin. The Wet'suwet'en and Gitxsan lose 30% of their kin. Small pox epidemic spreads from Bella Coola to Nagwuntl'oo. One-third of the people died. In other Tsilhkot'en (Chilcotin) Villages, nine out of ten people died. The following excerpt appears in the writings of Father Morice…

"...I myself saw the graves of perhaps 500 aboriginals...two white men...went and stealthily gathered the blankets of the dead which had been thrown away in the bush, and were therefore infested with small pox, which they sold out again to the aboriginal people without revealing their origin, thus causing a second visitation of the plague, which carried off the second third of the aboriginal population..."


You, FA, must have missed where I specifically noted 1862 in my post along with the observation that it was well documented and had nothing to do with any British policy of genocide.
But at least your post confirms my assertion.

The anecdote from Father Morice may or may not be accurate but nonetheless obviously happened AFTER the epidemic had passed through and was done by two unknown men. Those unknown men were not acting on the behalf of any government but only on their own behalf.....if the story is true.

The rest of your post confirms what I said in mine, that the only recorded incident of using or attempting to use infected blankets was during the Revolutionary War in the mid 1700's.

So far I'm correct in my assertions.

Now factor in this bit:

"What's more, we've got the documents to prove it, thanks to the enterprising research of Peter d'Errico, legal studies professor at the University of Massachusetts at (fittingly) Amherst. D'Errico slogged through hundreds of reels of microfilmed correspondence looking for the smoking gun, and he found it."

Notice how he had to slog through tons of stuff in order to find anything about those events way back then and on the other side of the continent? That indicates it wasn't a common thing or done very often and in a number of places. Otherwise there would be some more credible evidence of it.
Had nothing to do with anything relative to any west coast native group or groups either.
Other than your anecdote there is no evidence of any purposeful attempt to infect natives with smallpox here on the west coast. In fact, when the miner from California who arrived in Victoria with smallpox was discovered the natives who were encamped all around Victoria at the time were warned by Governor Douglas to leave. Many didn't hurry up about it and by the time the severity of the problem became evident it was too late.
The disease was carried back up the coast by the natives themselves.

I once sat right behind Miles Richardson Sr. at a meeting in Skidegate to do with salmon allocations etc. and he stood up and told us all a story about how his Grandpa told him about the time some traders traded a keg of booze for some furs and when the natives got to the bottom of the keg they found a severed thumb......and that thumb had smallpox on it.
Same kind of crap you've been spouting FA.
Notwithstanding the unlikelihood of that ever actually happening I'm pretty sure that a thumb from a person with smallpox pickled in rotgut booze wouldn't be very contagious anyhow.
Besides which I've spent a lot of time with and amongst natives during my life (I'm 64) so have a pretty good feel for how the game is played.
And I can tell bullcrap from horsecrap too.

Your assertion that everywhere the British went in the name of the church they deliberately infected the natives is one or the other.

It certainly isn't the truth though.


Take care.
 
quote:I once sat right behind Miles Richardson Sr. at a meeting in Skidegate to do with salmon allocations etc. and he stood up and told us all a story about how his Grandpa told him about the time some traders traded a keg of booze for some furs and when the natives got to the bottom of the keg they found a severed thumb......and that thumb had smallpox on it.
Same kind of crap you've been spouting FA.

I've been to about 50 meetings with Miles Richardson. (Not to mention many many other functions) If he said it I believe him. I definitely learned from the old group of politicians... Miles Richardson, George Watts, Bill Wilson, and Simon Lucas to name a few. There's another example you have pointed out of the spreading of smallpox to the First Nations along the coast. I would have thought that it is pretty much common knowledge that it happened, but I guess outside the Native communities it's easier to just deny this sort of thing ever happened. Hey, if it makes your day go by easier than believe what you want. The facts are that there are many documented cases of the intentional spreading of smallpox all over North America. The fact that Amherst was a British Officer goes to show that they obviously had prior knowledge of the impacts of the disease as they moved west. By the time smallpox arrived here all they had to do was wait, maybe help it along a little bit. But if you are deliberately trying to exterminate a race why would you want to leave records? The fact that there is physical evidence that this sort of warfare occurred would lead me to believe that these are not isolated incidences. I'm sure if you went to each First Nation in BC each one of them would tell you a similar story about how they where deliberately infected with smallpox. You could take this as coincidence if you wish, but I don't think it is.

Take only what you need.
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I've been reading this thread with some interest and concern. Fear does strange things to people (of all colours). Makes they say and do strange things in their efforts to lash-out.

I appreciate all the insights by all posters on this thread.

However, the occasional racial slurs and comments make me unsettled, as I believe that kind of disrespect misleads the conversation and makes in nearly impossible to understand the other's point of view. This is NOT the route to mutual understanding.

Having said that; I'd like to summarize what I think we may all be able to agree on:

1/ Smallpox ravaged the First Nations communities throughout Canada, especially along the heavier-populated trade routes; and also hit the so-called "white" communities (well documented here), but the whites had more innate resistance to this disease, due to historical contact that previously wiped-out the gene pool that contained lesser resistance to that disease.

The disease killed many thousands of West Coast First Nations (incl. the Haida); but also killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans each year during the 18th century (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox)

2/ Very little was actually known about disease transmission until approximately WWII, although some insights were assumed that may or may not have proven correct since the development of things like DNA analysis, scanning electromicroscopes, and various biochemical tagging methodologies developed in the past 20-50 years.

It is a certainty that back in the 1600-1800s, nobody actually knew enough about smallpox to be able to efficiently transport a viable, infective, live virus by blankets over long distances.

That's because smallpox is an extremely fragile virus (i.e. the variola virus, genus Orthopoxvirus, family Poxviridae) that can only survive small time frames (~24 hours) outside of a host; and needs exact temperatures and humidities and live tissue to survive outside a host. Usually, it was transmitted from person to person by air through tiny droplets of saliva.

So, it is unlikely that given the timeframe and technology available (slow sailing ships, canoes, and pack horse caravans) at the time - that the British, or any others, had much actual success with infecting natives with blankets.

This is not to say there was no intent to do so (as FA correctly pointed-out); but to be honest - it is more likely that person-to-person contact was the most likely transmission vector.

Given the large and complex trade routes at the time - it is even more plausible that this was the reason for the diseases so-called "success" in infecting and killing large numbers of so-called "incompetent" hosts (i.e. non-resistant First Nations).

3/ We all (First Nations AND European descendants) know less than we should about pre- and early post-European contact and the early history of Canada and North America.

Sometimes that history is "fun", sometimes it is unfortunate - but never is it dull. I can only be personally responsible for my own history and behaviour - and so it is for everyone else. This doesn't mean I have no responsibility to seek the truth, though.

By knowing more about each other's backgrounds - the more we understand each other. And for me - that's what it is about.

All our kids need to learn how to get along with each other, since it is our world (and mess) they are inheriting.
 
FA writes:

"There's another example you have pointed out of the spreading of smallpox to the First Nations along the coast. I would have thought that it is pretty much common knowledge that it happened, but I guess outside the Native communities it's easier to just deny this sort of thing ever happened. Hey, if it makes your day go by easier than believe what you want."

This is as good an example as any to demonstrate what is known as an
ideological blindspot, a not uncommon condition on the internet.
I deny only the assertion made initially by FA, which I post again for your perusal.

"Everywhere the british went in the name of the church always ended up the same way. Call it what you will, but genocide certainly works. When you know Smallpox kills Indians, and you give said Indians blankets from people who have died from smallpox. It would seem like a form of biological warfare.

The "british" "in the name of the church" did not deliberately spread smallpox via infected blankets amongst the population of west coast natives. Apparently everyone in the world knows that except you KA. Why is that?

Nowhere do I deny smallpox ravaged the native populations.
Can you grasp that KA?
I'm not the one in denial here, you are.

So far all I see is someone who has very poor reading comprehension abilities and is basically a one note wonder who can't seem to get away from his talking points.

I have a lot of sympathy for the native populations who were ravaged by smallpox and other diseases, but I feel no personal guilt for what happened back then.
I wasn't around and neither was any native living today.

I have little sympathy for modern natives who insist on playing the victim card all the time. I always got a kick out of attending meetings with guys I went to school with who arrive in $50,000 pickups and own three seiners who then complain about how hard done by they are.
Are you one of those guys KA?

Pathetic, or perhaps Pavlovian.

Regardless, I'm finished with wasting time on this topic.


Take care.
 
quote:Originally posted by agentaqua
X2, agentaqua well stated!


quote:Originally posted by The Fish Assassin
Actually, even though I started this thread, I am done with it! But, I really don't understand how in the hell a thread started and labeled, "British Columbia First Nation"?, which started out concerning TFN and their intentions and goals, turned into a debate about, "Call it what you will, but genocide certainly works."?? Are you really that desperate to draw attention to yourself??

I am very sorry FA… as usual, YOUR COMMENTS ARE WRONG! Are they wrong in content… maybe, maybe not; I am not going to even address them! However, YOU are WRONG in your intent! I don't care if you have been to 150 meetings with Miles Richardson. (Not to mention many other functions) If he is wrong… he is wrong? And if you learned your prejudice and racism from him or from, the "old group of politicians...", guess what they are WRONG, also!

And also, you never answered this question?

All Rights Exorcised
without Prejudice


Are you sure you know what you just said?

Just so you know, YOUR prejudice and racism is not doing TFN, your band, other bands, or any of your people any good. In fact, what you are doing is undermining and hurting what they are trying to accomplish! BTW, most agree with me and they think you are an a*sshole, and trust me, I heard from most over the "Tonto" comment! Which, I still stand by! If you are going to be a "racist", I am going to treat you as such and after I explained, YOUR people are in agreement! As I explained, that comment was made, towards YOU! It is NOT in any way, made towards any other Native American, Indian, TFN, or any Band… Just YOU!

I am not only done with this thread... I am done with YOU! Have a nice life![:0][:0]
 
Your a real piece of work.. How the hell did you turn this into me being racist?..lmfao

By me practicing my rights? or stating documented facts? Give your head a shake and it's best if the pot doesn't call the kettle black. I never resorted to racial slurs or name calling, I don't have to, but apparently you know no other way of getting your point across. So be it, but I will not stoop to your level. It sets us apart!!

Take only what you need.
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