Great post, I feel exactly the same way. Thrasher will be picked clean and end up closed again as the fish won't reproduce fast enough to keep up to the Kingfisher crowd.
Big Lings at Thrasher
- Thread starter Blackmax
- Start date
Great post, I feel exactly the same way. Thrasher will be picked clean and end up closed again as the fish won't reproduce fast enough to keep up to the Kingfisher crowd.
vanislehunter
Active Member
Big lings eat small lings and rockfish. Could we find ourselves overwhelmed with large ling cod that decimate other smaller groundfish stock? Just a thought.
SV: I wish it was that easy - that all we had to do is gripe on a sportsfishing forum and DFO would come in and take our advice and resolve the issue. Seems to me - unless you are handing-out manila envelopes and stock options - nobody listens in the cabinet. Seems you need to hire Vivian Krause and Ezra Levant to get even Mike Duffy to listen. I don't think we should EVER be afraid to speak our minds, SV.
HU: all across Canada they have (successfully) used slot and/or size limits as a conservation measure. All across this planet, actually. There is a reason for it. They work - given the appropriate management regime. If recruitment is a problem in some areas (which it may well be) - then this is one measure to conserve the breeding stock until recruitment increases (for those areas). There are other options including closing areas and reducing catches. I very much appreciated your intentions re: ensuring your kids and grandkids could enjoy the same opportunities we have - which is what this is all about IMHO.
finaddict: I disagree strongly re: "fish are not smart" comments. Anyone who works with fish on a regular basis knows better. The older fish are quite a bit "smarter" than the fish with a short life-cycle - as would be expected. Fish do learn over time - given an opportunity. Maybe not to the extent we readily recognize what they do learn - as we don't usually see them piloting boats and drinking beer - learning we recognize and acknowledge.
You see that wrt lingcod eggmass spawning - as an example. Larger females more appropriately choose water currents matching egg rearing requirements - and older rockfish females know where and when to release (paturate) larvae for best survival. I believe that is why the East Coast cod stocks have not rebounded. They killed-off most of the mature female breeding stocks. It's the equivalent now of 13 YO teenagers leaving babies in dumpsters. The science I posted is just now benchmarking this reality. This is not a surprise. Larger females also generate more eggs, and generally with more nutrients.
So - leaving the older, larger females to do what they do best is a small, but reasonably successful strategy in the big scheme of things. And yes - that will take some time to change things.
Vanislehunter: Great post! Yes - there could be some of those effects, eventually. I find that there are some density dependent effects where larger fish appear to push smaller fish into shallower habitats (i.e. through predation avoidance) where the stocks are healthy and robust. When we get to that point - it would be time to lift the size limits.
I guess the argument would be what is that "point"? How do we know when we get there? Enforcement and regulations would need to be informed by science - and there would need to be a plan on how to do that beforehand - I agree.
HU: all across Canada they have (successfully) used slot and/or size limits as a conservation measure. All across this planet, actually. There is a reason for it. They work - given the appropriate management regime. If recruitment is a problem in some areas (which it may well be) - then this is one measure to conserve the breeding stock until recruitment increases (for those areas). There are other options including closing areas and reducing catches. I very much appreciated your intentions re: ensuring your kids and grandkids could enjoy the same opportunities we have - which is what this is all about IMHO.
finaddict: I disagree strongly re: "fish are not smart" comments. Anyone who works with fish on a regular basis knows better. The older fish are quite a bit "smarter" than the fish with a short life-cycle - as would be expected. Fish do learn over time - given an opportunity. Maybe not to the extent we readily recognize what they do learn - as we don't usually see them piloting boats and drinking beer - learning we recognize and acknowledge.
You see that wrt lingcod eggmass spawning - as an example. Larger females more appropriately choose water currents matching egg rearing requirements - and older rockfish females know where and when to release (paturate) larvae for best survival. I believe that is why the East Coast cod stocks have not rebounded. They killed-off most of the mature female breeding stocks. It's the equivalent now of 13 YO teenagers leaving babies in dumpsters. The science I posted is just now benchmarking this reality. This is not a surprise. Larger females also generate more eggs, and generally with more nutrients.
So - leaving the older, larger females to do what they do best is a small, but reasonably successful strategy in the big scheme of things. And yes - that will take some time to change things.
Vanislehunter: Great post! Yes - there could be some of those effects, eventually. I find that there are some density dependent effects where larger fish appear to push smaller fish into shallower habitats (i.e. through predation avoidance) where the stocks are healthy and robust. When we get to that point - it would be time to lift the size limits.
I guess the argument would be what is that "point"? How do we know when we get there? Enforcement and regulations would need to be informed by science - and there would need to be a plan on how to do that beforehand - I agree.
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kingspring
Active Member
And no slot size on seals too would help a bit .....
Hookin'up
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the feedback
I don't disagree with you in saying that the slot limits do help,
but what I am getting at is the slot limit will only help the females already within that slot size......maybe
but will not help the up and coming females, then what? eventually the old breeders die off and theres nothing to replace them with
hope I'm making sense, please feel free to correct me
finaddict
Well-Known Member
You are claiming that fish have the ability to reason, which I have difficulty believing. Their patterns of behaviour are based on instinct. Do you have any research or published findings to support your hypothesis of learning capacity in fish? or of the non-recovery of East Coast Cod populations? If you do, I would be interested in seeing it. Double A, I have always respected your opinion. I have my views, but always prepared to change them with a preponderance of evidence.
Wrt slot limits, I 100% agree. Simply based on fecundity it would be the most logical way to maintain the populations. Not only are large female ling better producers, they are also better protectors of the egg mass.
Thanks.
fogged in
Well-Known Member
Instinct for sure...but I think you will find support for the thought that "instinct" in a big old Ling can be influenced by a form of intelligence, albeit at a very low level.
I think we can also agree that most on this form have concluded the big 20 year old plus Ling Cod moma's best NOT TO BE TARGETED, whether it be at Thrasher Rock or the WCVI
finaddict
Well-Known Member
Definitely. Slot limits for sure. Make maximum size 90cm.
Thanks back to you also FA. I appreciate your posts and respectful responses as well. See below:
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http://www.howfishbehave.ca/pdf/Social intelligence.pdf
Social intelligence in fishes. Stéphan G. Reebs. Université de Moncton, Canada. 2010
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<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Xjt6QJSo4qs?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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http://www.researchgate.net/profile...and_ethics/links/0c96053b488f9c558a000000.pdf
Anim Cogn
DOI 10.1007/s10071-014-0761-0
Fish intelligence, sentience and ethics. Culum Brown
Received: 13 November 2013 / Revised: 7 May 2014 / Accepted: 19 May 2014
Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg 2014
Abstract: Fish are one of the most highly utilised vertebrate taxa by humans; they are harvested from wild stocks as part of global fishing industries, grown under intensive aquaculture conditions, are the most common pet and are widely used for scientific research. But fish are seldom afforded the same level of compassion or welfare as warm-blooded vertebrates. Part of the problem is the large gap between people’s perception of fish intelligence and the scientific reality. This is an important issue because public perception guides government policy. The perception of an animal’s intelligence often drives our decision whether or not to include them in our moral circle. From a welfare perspective, most researchers would suggest that if an animal is sentient, then it can most likely suffer and should therefore be offered some form of formal protection. There has been a debate about fish welfare for decades which centres on the question of whether they are sentient or conscious. The implications for affording the same level of protection to fish as other vertebrates are great, not least because of fishing-related industries. Here, I review the current state of knowledge of fish cognition starting with their sensory perception and moving on to cognition. The review reveals that fish perception and cognitive abilities often match or exceed other vertebrates. A review of the evidence for pain perception strongly suggests that fish experience pain in a manner similar to the rest of the vertebrates. Although scientists cannot provide a definitive answer on the level of consciousness for any nonhuman vertebrate, the extensive evidence of fish behavioural and cognitive sophistication and pain perception suggests that best practice would be to lend fish the same level of protection as any other vertebrate.
"Conclusions
Fish have very good memories, live in complex social communities where they keep track of individuals and can learn from one another; a process that leads to the development of stable cultural traditions. They recognise themselves and others. They cooperate with one another and show signs of Machiavellian intelligence such as cooperation and reconciliation. They build complex structures, are capable of tool use and use the same methods for keeping track of quantities as we do. For the most part, their primary senses are just as good, and in many cases better, than our own. When comparing their behaviour to primates, one finds very few differences with the exception, perhaps, of the ability for imitation (Bshary et al. 2002). One must conclude, therefore, that the level of cognitive complexity displayed by fishes is on a par with most other vertebrates, and that if any animals are sentient then one must conclude that fish are too. While their brain evolutionary and developmental trajectory differs from other vertebrates, it is evident that there are many analogous structures that perform similar functions. This body of evidence strongly suggests that they are sentient and the evidence that they are capably of feeling pain in a manner similar to humans is gradually mounting. I submit that there are compelling reasons to include fish in our ‘‘moral circle’’ and afford them the protection they deserve."
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http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/7/1144.full
Depensation, probability of fertilization, and the mating system of Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua L.)
Sherrylynn Rowea,*, Jeffrey A. Hutchingsa, Dorte Bekkevoldb and Ana Rakitinc
*Correspondence to S. Rowe. e-mail: sherrylynn.Rowe@Dal.ca.
Abstract
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua L.) have been severely overexploited and are currently at historic population lows, having declined 90% in the North Sea and 99% off northeast Newfoundland in recent decades. Slow rates of recovery and continuing declines may be attributable to depensation, defined as a reduction in per capita growth rate concomitant with reduced population size. Several potential causes of depensation relate to low mating success and consequent reduced production of offspring. We explore the empirical basis of one of these in Atlantic cod using egg fertilization and male abundance data obtained from 21 experimental populations generated by three independent research programmes. We find support for the hypotheses that (a) fertilization rate declines with abundance and (b) variance in fertilization rate increases as population size declines. The former identifies one potential mechanism underlying depensation in Atlantic cod. The latter has negative genetic consequences for effective population size (Ne), resulting in a decline in the ratio of Ne to census population size (Ne/Nc) with declining abundance. Our results may have general implications for the conservation biology of broadcast-spawning marine fish, particularly those with mating systems similar to that of Atlantic cod.
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http://www.researchgate.net/profile...s_morhua_)/links/00b7d529dd176be8c6000000.pdf
Abstract: Changes to life history traits are often concomitant with prolonged periods of exploitation. In the Northwest Atlantic, 30- to 40-year declines of more than 90% of Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua) have been associated with significant reductions in age and length at maturity, changes most parsimoniously explained as genetic responses to fishing. Increased survival costs of reproduction associated with earlier maturity, resulting in higher natural mortality and shorter life span, negatively affect population growth rate and rate of recovery. Coupled with lower hatching rate among first-time spawners and smaller size at maturity, a modest reduction in age from 6 to 4 years can reduce annual population growth in Atlantic cod by 25%–30%, based on the output of a stochastic, age-structured life history model. Earlier maturity more than doubles the probability of negative population growth every generation. These results underscore the potential for fishing-induced changes to life history traits alone to generate slow or negligible recovery in marine fishes, exacerbating negative impacts on population growth resulting from ecosystem-level alterations to interspecific competition and predation.
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Image below from: Cod: The Ecological History of the North Atlantic Fisheries By George A. Rose https://books.google.ca/books?id=tD...onepage&q=cod stocks breeding females&f=false
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From page 5 of Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat
Science Advisory Report 2009/011
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/338997.pdf
I would expect that they eat less big lingcod and more salmon - incl. outmigrating juvies. Your point is well taken however, kingspring.
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Sorry, HU - forgot to respond. There is a difference between "slot" limits and "size" limits. There are some assumptions with both size and slot limits.
The assumption with slot limits is that you let the youngest and smallest get started - nail the intermediate size classes - and ease-off on the spawners. The assumption is that enough will make it through the intermediate classes. It does seem to work - and many FW lakes across Canada use this approach - as well as some other jurisdictions world-wide.
I think for species like lingcod - where after a certain size (e.g. 100 cm) - they are all older, experienced female spawners - size limits would work best.
yes - all fish and other animals eventually die - including us. But we don't say that because we will die we should stop having sex. If you let the successful breeders spawn - more animals are produced - more make it to breeding size - and the population increases. That's the assumption there - and it also has been used successfully world-wide. The intent from my end - is to help ensure we don't rape, pillage and plunder everything away for our kids and their kids - but we don't stop fishing and enjoying our opportunities, either.
Seafever
Well-Known Member
Edited June 2nd............on t.v. show "Angler West"....one of the sponsors is a certain lodge that is located up Winter harbour way.
The promo picture in the commercial for this lodge is absolutely disgusting. Wall to wall Lings hanging up behind the fishermen.....and every Ling looks like a huge female. In front of them is a nice overkill of Snappers.
If this is a promo pic of one guided trip's total catch ......I can see why there would be concern. You multiply what they caught by the number of trips from that place plus all the other lodges and resorts on WCVI.... Sure it might be legal and yes, they did pay for the trip......but.......
Disgusting.
The promo picture in the commercial for this lodge is absolutely disgusting. Wall to wall Lings hanging up behind the fishermen.....and every Ling looks like a huge female. In front of them is a nice overkill of Snappers.
If this is a promo pic of one guided trip's total catch ......I can see why there would be concern. You multiply what they caught by the number of trips from that place plus all the other lodges and resorts on WCVI....
Sure it might be legal and yes, they did pay for the trip......but.......Disgusting.
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fogged in
Well-Known Member
Yep...everyone is entitled to a big catch if they buy a license and can afford to hire a guide.
As someone said on this site..if it's legal why not.
go get em....fish til you drop or until there are none left.
Lots of photo's like this from Winter Harbour and many other places.
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finaddict
Well-Known Member
I have little problem with it. Every one of those sport guide harvested fish is worth 10 x the amount of the same caught by the commies and the majority of that money contributes right to the communities that need it the most. Drop the commie TAC for the sport salmon (chinook and coho), properly share the TAC on halibut, keep the size restrictions on Hali's but change the possession limits to 2/day 3 possession, put in a slot limit on lings, build the resorts and invite them in. You would have a vibrant sport oriented fishery on the west coast that no one could rival.
fogged in
Well-Known Member
Seafever
Well-Known Member
Strormtrooper:-
I'm pretty sure it was 2MATFR's show......maybe it's "Angler West".....I watch that a lot too......but anyhow....more accurately it is a 'resort' that advertises from up there...(don't want to post the name)....except to say their name does not match the location they are at.
Every Ling they have hanging off the rack behind them in the pic looks like it's over 30lbs....
I'm pretty sure it was 2MATFR's show......maybe it's "Angler West".....I watch that a lot too......but anyhow....more accurately it is a 'resort' that advertises from up there...(don't want to post the name)....except to say their name does not match the location they are at.
Every Ling they have hanging off the rack behind them in the pic looks like it's over 30lbs....
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