2009 - 2010 Halibut Debate + Poll
- Thread starter the fog ducker
- Start date
searun
Well-Known Member
LC, I agree that we are selling the experience not the meat...and if you are selling meat it isn't likely you will have a large percentage of repeat customers in a down year for fish. Having said that, I still think an annual limit is fine at 10 then try to make the 2 per day, 2 possession limit work if and only</u> if we can get our numbers down to the TAC allowance.
The problem as I see it with the 1 per day limit is it encourages guys to go after the large fish and pass up on the small chickens. Wouldn't it make more sense from a conservation perspective to have the large spawning females left alone to make babies? That's why it makes more sense to me to encourage guys to target the chickens by allowing them to whack a couple and get done so we leave the big moma's to do their thing.
Searun
The problem as I see it with the 1 per day limit is it encourages guys to go after the large fish and pass up on the small chickens. Wouldn't it make more sense from a conservation perspective to have the large spawning females left alone to make babies? That's why it makes more sense to me to encourage guys to target the chickens by allowing them to whack a couple and get done so we leave the big moma's to do their thing.
Searun
You might want to consider that at one hali per day and no money to lease additional quota based on last year catch stats, we are not even going to be able to fish all year (Feb 1 to Dec 31). You can forget about a chance of going to 2 per day unless something major occurs in the next three months at DFO.
Eventhough an annual limit of 10 is being debated and polled here on SFBC, my take is this will not make any significant difference to the total coast-wide catch at all. By far the majority don't get close to 10 halis per year. It is simply window dressing. Yes, there are the greedy meat hounds out there but they don't make up much of the 60,000 or so who fish halibut each year.
We are trapped in a terrible DFO created allocation fiasco (started by Thibeau's 88/12), our historical access to Canada's catchable halibut has been negatively compromised. That is the problem in a nut shell. We aren't even fighting back very hard. Gifting DFO a conservation management measure like 10 hali per year limit when no conservation issue exists makes little sense and is certainly not a good rationale for negotiating our sector out of the allocation fiasco. Can you imagine Charleton Heston (may he rest in peace) walking into the Whitehouse and saying "the NRA agree to give up our right to carry pistols as long as the gov't don't introduce a gun registry here in the USA" laughable really - no he said if I recall his famous quote "I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands!"
We sportfishermen love to pi$$ and moan, are forever optimistic and expect others to go to the wall for us. Seems like no one in our sector is standing up anymore on this issue, nor screaming and shouting and telling the Fisheries Minister/DFO that this is totally unacceptable and we want our fish back or else</u>!
Gov
God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
Eventhough an annual limit of 10 is being debated and polled here on SFBC, my take is this will not make any significant difference to the total coast-wide catch at all. By far the majority don't get close to 10 halis per year. It is simply window dressing. Yes, there are the greedy meat hounds out there but they don't make up much of the 60,000 or so who fish halibut each year.
We are trapped in a terrible DFO created allocation fiasco (started by Thibeau's 88/12), our historical access to Canada's catchable halibut has been negatively compromised. That is the problem in a nut shell. We aren't even fighting back very hard. Gifting DFO a conservation management measure like 10 hali per year limit when no conservation issue exists makes little sense and is certainly not a good rationale for negotiating our sector out of the allocation fiasco. Can you imagine Charleton Heston (may he rest in peace) walking into the Whitehouse and saying "the NRA agree to give up our right to carry pistols as long as the gov't don't introduce a gun registry here in the USA" laughable really - no he said if I recall his famous quote "I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands!"
We sportfishermen love to pi$$ and moan, are forever optimistic and expect others to go to the wall for us. Seems like no one in our sector is standing up anymore on this issue, nor screaming and shouting and telling the Fisheries Minister/DFO that this is totally unacceptable and we want our fish back or else</u>!
Gov
God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
the fog ducker
Well-Known Member
X2 Govenor
Perfectly said , We however , WCVI South , on majority , don't start truly fishing till late May June , locals and guides have the luxury , but most tourists are a little later , the early opening does not affect us as much as " others " I thinks the 2 per day , 2 -3 posession is fine the way it is , perhaps we propose , Area , opening(s) closure (s) again , I know for a fact , I speak to alot of tourists over there , they simply were not targeting Halibut as in past years , due to the one a day limit ,too long of a haul . The 12 % needs to be dealt with fairly , . Is there any public info on what the take home was on the different areas and dates , that would be huge to see ,make my point ,how do they know where and how many are kept overall !! I never seen anyone counting in our area of Barkley !, (i believe someone mentioned , the sports sector was to take around 900,000 pounds total last season )
Cheers FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
Perfectly said , We however , WCVI South , on majority , don't start truly fishing till late May June , locals and guides have the luxury , but most tourists are a little later , the early opening does not affect us as much as " others " I thinks the 2 per day , 2 -3 posession is fine the way it is , perhaps we propose , Area , opening(s) closure (s) again , I know for a fact , I speak to alot of tourists over there , they simply were not targeting Halibut as in past years , due to the one a day limit ,too long of a haul . The 12 % needs to be dealt with fairly , . Is there any public info on what the take home was on the different areas and dates , that would be huge to see ,make my point ,how do they know where and how many are kept overall !! I never seen anyone counting in our area of Barkley !, (i believe someone mentioned , the sports sector was to take around 900,000 pounds total last season )
Cheers FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
Gov..don't get my point wrong..I'm dead fast against the 88-12% Tac and we should not be in the situation of shortened seasons and reduced daily limits. We should continue to fight to rid ourselves from the situation. My whole take on a 10 fish a season limit is "That is all one person needs...period! For no other reason, just common sense. Yes open Feb 1st to Dec 31st, 2 per day, 3 possession is the goal. Just no more than 10 per year.
last winter we had a presentation at our fishing club meeting by the guy that wrote the book on catching BIG halibut. he started out by talking about spawning. apparently the vast majority of halibut spawn in the gulf of alaska in waters from 900-1200' in depth. the egg masses free drift and are carried counter clockwise across the pacific and back again. of course this means those eggs hatch out into small halibut which are drifting looking for something to eat. and, of course, that also means that whatever is going on in the vast pacific is having a direct influence on the survival of these juvenile halibut. what those influences may be i am sure are not understood by any individual no matter their academic credentials. WE see the result but can't know why numbers increase or decrease.
eventually those small fishes hit the north america coast and start working their way north. their one and only purpose in life seems to be finding enough food to keep them moving N in their journey to reproduce.
what that means is the halibut we are all looking for are transients. until they get way north they are on the move searching for food. if they find a hole to hide in where the eating is easy, they hang out, if not they continue moving. late in the season, many of these larger fish take up residence in alaskan waters seemingly populating any outflow that has the potential of washing dead salmon onto their dinner plate. and that probably explains why folks rave about how easy halibut fishing is in the waters of the far north, concentrations of fish hanging out and waiting for spawning time.
i am sure there are exceptions to this explanation but in general it tends to explain why some specific locations seem to produce better than others, food.
now any fish at 100#'s is almost with certainty a female who is capable of depositing some half million eggs. killing the goose who lays the golden egg is one of the stupidist things i can think of any fisherman doing. yep, i know 2 guys who cut fish that size loose this past season. they both got a standup round of applause at the club meeting.
since there are only 2 of us at home, i calculate that 2-3 halibut/season is about all we will truly enjoy as table fare. when i hit that personal limit, i go do something else. and, 20-50#ers are the ones that come home, anything else is cut loose. so the choice seems to be, limit your personal take home, or let someelse do it for'yah while you ***** and moan for years to come
as usual, YMMV.
eventually those small fishes hit the north america coast and start working their way north. their one and only purpose in life seems to be finding enough food to keep them moving N in their journey to reproduce.
what that means is the halibut we are all looking for are transients. until they get way north they are on the move searching for food. if they find a hole to hide in where the eating is easy, they hang out, if not they continue moving. late in the season, many of these larger fish take up residence in alaskan waters seemingly populating any outflow that has the potential of washing dead salmon onto their dinner plate. and that probably explains why folks rave about how easy halibut fishing is in the waters of the far north, concentrations of fish hanging out and waiting for spawning time.
i am sure there are exceptions to this explanation but in general it tends to explain why some specific locations seem to produce better than others, food.
now any fish at 100#'s is almost with certainty a female who is capable of depositing some half million eggs. killing the goose who lays the golden egg is one of the stupidist things i can think of any fisherman doing. yep, i know 2 guys who cut fish that size loose this past season. they both got a standup round of applause at the club meeting.
since there are only 2 of us at home, i calculate that 2-3 halibut/season is about all we will truly enjoy as table fare. when i hit that personal limit, i go do something else. and, 20-50#ers are the ones that come home, anything else is cut loose. so the choice seems to be, limit your personal take home, or let someelse do it for'yah while you ***** and moan for years to come
as usual, YMMV.
Fair enough and good on you reefast and your club buddies for trying to make a difference. But don't think for a second the big halis you cut loose had a very good chance of making it to the spawning grounds. If you (and I mean the sporties) don't take your TAC the commercials will gladly take up your slack and whack those couple of large halis you let go. Don't forget: the TAC (US and Canada) WILL be taken - if not you - then others take it. Now, there might be a very slight chance that one of the large halis you cut loose got away and the commercials caught a couple of small ones instead to fill the TAC - but giving the effectiveness of the commercial fleet and their preference for larger fish I would say the chances for your released fish to spawn are very small.
yes, of course, chris73, but - all i can do is my small part just like everyone else involved in sport fishing. until or unless there is legal action taken to change things, it will all remain the same, going downhill into extinction. but, i don't see any sport fishing group organized to the same extent as the commercials and indians whose simple goal is to make money. unfortunately, the sport fishing community is totally factured with competing interests and ideas and as such stands a snow balls chance to actually get anything accomplished.
i have been lobying for some time now to get all the nets out. what that would take is litigation aimed at the federal government and their agent NMFS who is charged with enforcing the protection of ESA listed fish. but, the commercials and indians have quietly had them back 'incidential' catch as their means of continuing to kill everything that swims.
same thing with the long line halibut fishery. the simple goal of money makes their lobbying effective, targeted and continuing. you can see the splintering in this very post of the sporties and their goals, all over the map. and they will more than likely remain there until extinction shuts the entire show down, forever.
i have been lobying for some time now to get all the nets out. what that would take is litigation aimed at the federal government and their agent NMFS who is charged with enforcing the protection of ESA listed fish. but, the commercials and indians have quietly had them back 'incidential' catch as their means of continuing to kill everything that swims.
same thing with the long line halibut fishery. the simple goal of money makes their lobbying effective, targeted and continuing. you can see the splintering in this very post of the sporties and their goals, all over the map. and they will more than likely remain there until extinction shuts the entire show down, forever.
T
Tofinoguy
Guest
It was 915,000 lbs. It looks like next year it is going down another 15%. If that's the case the quota will be filled by mid August.The only way we get more access to Halibut is if the Tac ratio gets ammended........ good luck with that.quote:Originally posted by The Fog Ducker
X2 Govenor
Perfectly said , We however , WCVI South , on majority , don't start truly fishing till late May June , locals and guides have the luxury , but most tourists are a little later , the early opening does not affect us as much as " others " I thinks the 2 per day , 2 -3 posession is fine the way it is , perhaps we propose , Area , opening(s) closure (s) again , I know for a fact , I speak to alot of tourists over there , they simply were not targeting Halibut as in past years , due to the one a day limit ,too long of a haul . The 12 % needs to be dealt with fairly , . Is there any public info on what the take home was on the different areas and dates , that would be huge to see ,make my point ,how do they know where and how many are kept overall !! I never seen anyone counting in our area of Barkley !, (i believe someone mentioned , the sports sector was to take around 900,000 pounds total last season )
Cheers FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
G
Gooey Bob
Guest
Cliff Jumper and Governor, you have it bang on!
I see absolutely no reason why any individual should be provided a portion of the halibut that I own as a Canadian for some kind of "retirement package' just because he's had the priveledge of making a good living off the resource for little to no payback to the resource owner in terms of royalties for most of his life. Ridiculous, and frankly I find it offensive that our government should select out a few "special" individuals who get a better deal than the rest of us. Especially when their better deal means hardship for some of us who are still actually trying to make a living off the resource in a sustainable and high added value manner.
Further, given the fact that our issue in Canada is simply one of domestic allocation, I fail to see how any benefit can be achieved form a 10 fish per year limit. In fact, this idea has been discussed as a management option and was dismissed by DFO as not providing any kind of measurable savings. The dys of "optics" as a solution are over - if you can't measure the impact and translate it into pounds of halibut saved, the measuire is meaningless.
We'd might as well fact it, the only solution to this problem lies in a change to the Thibault allocation policy, and the only way that's gonna happen is if the Minister and the current gov't feel there is some kind of social\political downside to not making the change.
I guess only time will tell, but perhaps once more anglers consider what the 2010 season is likely to look like without the ability for our sector to lease quota (I'll bet $50.00 right now that at one per day, two in possession if the season starts in March, it will be closed before the 15th of August)there may be enough angst to build on last years rally. If not, as soon as they figure we'll roll over and go away, we're dead in the water.
Gooey
I see absolutely no reason why any individual should be provided a portion of the halibut that I own as a Canadian for some kind of "retirement package' just because he's had the priveledge of making a good living off the resource for little to no payback to the resource owner in terms of royalties for most of his life. Ridiculous, and frankly I find it offensive that our government should select out a few "special" individuals who get a better deal than the rest of us. Especially when their better deal means hardship for some of us who are still actually trying to make a living off the resource in a sustainable and high added value manner.
Further, given the fact that our issue in Canada is simply one of domestic allocation, I fail to see how any benefit can be achieved form a 10 fish per year limit. In fact, this idea has been discussed as a management option and was dismissed by DFO as not providing any kind of measurable savings. The dys of "optics" as a solution are over - if you can't measure the impact and translate it into pounds of halibut saved, the measuire is meaningless.
We'd might as well fact it, the only solution to this problem lies in a change to the Thibault allocation policy, and the only way that's gonna happen is if the Minister and the current gov't feel there is some kind of social\political downside to not making the change.
I guess only time will tell, but perhaps once more anglers consider what the 2010 season is likely to look like without the ability for our sector to lease quota (I'll bet $50.00 right now that at one per day, two in possession if the season starts in March, it will be closed before the 15th of August)there may be enough angst to build on last years rally. If not, as soon as they figure we'll roll over and go away, we're dead in the water.
Gooey
I'll say it again...nobody needs more than 10 for personal consumption...if you are taking more, you are more than likely involved in illegal activity by way of sale or trade. A family of 4 would be able to take 40!!!! The 10 per season is not meant to be a conservation measure. It will however end the practice of guides giving their daily limit to customers and may delay early closures in years of lower abundance. The quota should be caught (what ever it is) but should be more evenly distributed to all rec-license holders. It will be even more important down the road as the numbers fishing halibut continues to grow. An annual limit will come sooner or later as more people take it up..why not advocate it now and take credit for it...instead of it being forced on us and making us look like we really don't give a rats butt about the fish.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
A year ago, everyone was freaked out about the 2009 halibut season.
Granted we had some help with the buy back TAC from the commercials.
Howewer everyone moaned and groaned about how we would be shut down early.
Then it opened up for 2 a day ??? WTF ?
Why not leave it one a day, i didn't hear too many guys complaining they couldn't go out and catch 4 Halibut.
The TAC split is cast in stone and unless we get a much, much bigger
lobbying group it isn't going to change.
The best thing you can do if unhappy with the situation is to vote the Gov't out and hopefully get a fisheries minister who will listen to the constituents.
Granted we had some help with the buy back TAC from the commercials.
Howewer everyone moaned and groaned about how we would be shut down early.
Then it opened up for 2 a day ??? WTF ?
Why not leave it one a day, i didn't hear too many guys complaining they couldn't go out and catch 4 Halibut.
The TAC split is cast in stone and unless we get a much, much bigger
lobbying group it isn't going to change.
The best thing you can do if unhappy with the situation is to vote the Gov't out and hopefully get a fisheries minister who will listen to the constituents.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
If you are referring to John Beath... he is indeed a good angler, but probably no better or worse than most of us... but you need to remember, he is trying to sell "his" products? If I were to pay someone to catch fish???... I would rather pay a "local", who knows the waters, but that is only my opinion!
the fog ducker
Well-Known Member
As discussed ,
if all sporties caught 10 a year , we would probabally not have more than a month opening , if that , before we exceeded our 12% tac , 10 per year would not reduce our tac , How many fish are you guy's catching a season , must be way more than 10 , if you think 10 max would reduce our tac , right or wrong..[?].. don't understand why it keeps getting voted for , it's not the answer , MOST sporties don't get close to 10 .An average familly does NOT need 10 , It's the waving of the white flag we don't need .....
FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
if all sporties caught 10 a year , we would probabally not have more than a month opening , if that , before we exceeded our 12% tac , 10 per year would not reduce our tac , How many fish are you guy's catching a season , must be way more than 10 , if you think 10 max would reduce our tac , right or wrong..[?].. don't understand why it keeps getting voted for , it's not the answer , MOST sporties don't get close to 10 .An average familly does NOT need 10 , It's the waving of the white flag we don't need ...
..FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
searun
Well-Known Member
I have to agree on the 10 fish limit...no one needs any more than that. We should also be working toward regs that discourage targeting of large females - I couldn't agree more loudly with the posts that we are killing our future if we whack these gals. Let's think long, and not get caught up in the excuse that if we don't take these fish, the commercial guys will. Bottom line is there is a TAC and no one can catch more than their share in terms of number of fish...so let's try to restrict our impact on the really large female spawning stock by taking the high road for the future benefit of generations of young recreational anglers.
And if we seriously think we can increase our share of the TAC without some form of buy out, then we are smoking something that ain't legal. It will never happen, so our efforts should be on stretching out the main season most recreational anglers target halis - which is June to August. If we go after 2 per day, 2 possession with annual limits of 10 max, then we may have a chance at a decent main season.
This would benefit the majority of anglers as Felix says, and not just a smaller group of guys who fish early season. I realize this has an impact on guys who are trying to stretch their charter season, but when it comes to managing the fishery for everyone we probably should be trying to look at what decisions would end up benefiting the most anglers.
And if we seriously think we can increase our share of the TAC without some form of buy out, then we are smoking something that ain't legal. It will never happen, so our efforts should be on stretching out the main season most recreational anglers target halis - which is June to August. If we go after 2 per day, 2 possession with annual limits of 10 max, then we may have a chance at a decent main season.
This would benefit the majority of anglers as Felix says, and not just a smaller group of guys who fish early season. I realize this has an impact on guys who are trying to stretch their charter season, but when it comes to managing the fishery for everyone we probably should be trying to look at what decisions would end up benefiting the most anglers.
quote:Originally posted by Tofinoguy
It was 915,000 lbs. It looks like next year it is going down another 15%. If that's the case the quota will be filled by mid August.The only way we get more access to Halibut is if the Tac ratio gets ammended........ good luck with that.quote:Originally posted by The Fog Ducker
X2 Govenor
Perfectly said , We however , WCVI South , on majority , don't start truly fishing till late May June , locals and guides have the luxury , but most tourists are a little later , the early opening does not affect us as much as " others " I thinks the 2 per day , 2 -3 posession is fine the way it is , perhaps we propose , Area , opening(s) closure (s) again , I know for a fact , I speak to alot of tourists over there , they simply were not targeting Halibut as in past years , due to the one a day limit ,too long of a haul . The 12 % needs to be dealt with fairly , . Is there any public info on what the take home was on the different areas and dates , that would be huge to see ,make my point ,how do they know where and how many are kept overall !! I never seen anyone counting in our area of Barkley !, (i believe someone mentioned , the sports sector was to take around 900,000 pounds total last season )
Cheers FD...
kosi99@hotmail.com
Any idea what the 2007 & 2008 sport catch was?
Well said Gooey. Fully agree.
As for 10 per year, personally absolutely enough for me, HOWEVER, not as part of the regs - not right now. As said before, 1) it will be a paper reg that has no bearing on the actual total catch, 2) there is no conservation issue, 3) I am not willing to make ANY concession until the unfair 12/88 split is reviewed and revised. As a sportfisherman I AM demanding - not giving up! That's what the message should be. Once we are offered a fair deal we can talk concessions.
As for 10 per year, personally absolutely enough for me, HOWEVER, not as part of the regs - not right now. As said before, 1) it will be a paper reg that has no bearing on the actual total catch, 2) there is no conservation issue, 3) I am not willing to make ANY concession until the unfair 12/88 split is reviewed and revised. As a sportfisherman I AM demanding - not giving up! That's what the message should be. Once we are offered a fair deal we can talk concessions.
Captain Dudds
Well-Known Member
I agree Chris. I don't believe the max 10 will reduce our catch by any measurable amount and therefore will not affect our season.
Profisher - I don't see why an annual halibut limit is inevitable. In fact, DFO has rejected the idea. Plus, I don't see much benefit of taking credit for that. The general public plays no role in this and that is the only group that I believe creating a conservative image of ourselves would impact. The other groups involved, DFO and commercials, are strictly business and would not care. To help make my point, the commercials currently take on average, bigger female halibut, giving a poor image regarding conservation, and the DFO knows this because it shows in their stats, but it clearly has no pull since the commercials are getting what they want.
I believe the road to success lies in being firm and persistent. Continue to attend meetings and voice your concerns. Making concessions will show the DFO that with time, we will bend into whatever shape they want.
Profisher - I don't see why an annual halibut limit is inevitable. In fact, DFO has rejected the idea. Plus, I don't see much benefit of taking credit for that. The general public plays no role in this and that is the only group that I believe creating a conservative image of ourselves would impact. The other groups involved, DFO and commercials, are strictly business and would not care. To help make my point, the commercials currently take on average, bigger female halibut, giving a poor image regarding conservation, and the DFO knows this because it shows in their stats, but it clearly has no pull since the commercials are getting what they want.
I believe the road to success lies in being firm and persistent. Continue to attend meetings and voice your concerns. Making concessions will show the DFO that with time, we will bend into whatever shape they want.
i was under the belief that female halibut spawn at 3o or 40 lbs there is nothing wrong with the regs as they are.if most people dont keep ten a limit of ten on paper willnot do a damn thingmost sport fishers will never see a 100 lber but the chance to be able to is why most keep tryingthe halibut are not in any danger of extinction we should be arguing about releasing large female spring salmon if anythin.gpersonally my fishing days arevery nearly overalthough i had a good run at it
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