Defensible science?
Maybe I should just blame Harper and call everything a conspiracy, citing speculative acts of collusion wherever there is a lack of evidence...
Why of course CK, Harper has passed some wonderful laws by gutting the Fisheries Act and the Navigable Waters Act!! And by gagging scientists like Dr. Miller and ensuring no other scientist is allowed to speak about their results he is ensuring we citizens only get to hear the truth. Even though the Information Commissioner is investigating the way science is being politicised that does not mean there is a conspiracy. Just good sound economics at the expense of everything and everyone eh?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...r-governments-muzzling-of-federal-scientists/
Seems to me that is the most common form of debate on here when you guys find yourself unable to actually show any impacts on wild populations from farms.
CK when will you get it into your head it is not “us guys” who show impacts on wild fish populations. It is dozens of independent researchers and scientists throughout the world. Here are just a few of the documented impacts from BC and other parts of the world, including Norway!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2109.2001.00627.x/abstract
http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/1/131.short
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/f10-105#.UiPSiT9aRzN
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004484869190392K
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15506.short
You have a great deal of fear about aquaculture and you feed it with whatever is available, whether it is valid in any way or not.
CK us feed lot opponents are not some ignorant and superstitious people huddled in the dark “in fear”. On the contrary we are concerned because many of us are knowledgeable scientists and read and understand papers like those above and recognise the implications. You indoctrinated believers in your “feed lot religion” try to deny and ignore the evidence or attack those who criticise your industry. Your attacks on Agent and Morton are particularly pathetic and telling and reminiscent of so many “deniers” of the past, as has been pointed out on this forum
And do not muddle your terminology CK. It is not aquaculture we are concerned about in its entirety. Just open net pen feed lots which keep thousands of carnivorous fish in close proximity to each other and with the ability for any and all diseases, antibiotics and chemicals to flow into and interact with the environment in totally uncontrollable ways.
I see it from another angle, and am quite confident that the many examples of actual evidence which counter your speculation and theories show at worst an incredibly small impact from farms.
CK you don’t see it “from another angle” because you are not scientifically qualified to do so! You only speak from the point of view of your utter self interest so please don’t pretend that you have some kind of special insight into what the science is saying because you absolutely don’t!!
If you are unable to see that the graphs and videos show either evidence counter to your argument, or at least context to show where current levels of escapement fit in to the long term trends - well, you're welcome to your opinion.
Just don't call it fact. Or tell me you got there by "science".
Some of your own graphs show the evidence you refuse to see CK!. The Fraser River sockeye returns are clearly falling as shown on the graphs and overall productivity trend is down except for the one “spike’ year of 2010. Including the data all the way back to the turn of the century is ridiculous because the Hells Gate slide in 1913 caused the massive drop in those years and it took many years for the stocks to recover from that. This graph is cynical manipulation of the public perception typical of your industry!
And if I'm going to have some fun posting images which may be humorous to those that share my position - so be it.
Puerile. Completely puerile!!
And that is an antisocial and selfish attitude CK because the people of the BC bear all the risks and impacts while your industry makes all the profit!
Any pro-farm voice on here gets called a shill, troll, apologist, or sociopath and has their maturity, integrity and cognitive ability questioned.
The same type of names don't flow back the other way because we are all fishermen, naturalists and environmentally minded people too - but we're not hypocrites who are unable to place human activities in their appropriate context given known information.
This one is stunning! This from a person who vilifies Morton and scientists that work with her. This from person who calls into question their motives, their funding sources, their qualifications, ANYTHING to try and denigrate these brave scientists and bring their work into question. You are in fact quite demonstrably a hypocrite! Quite honestly CK the names your industry and you personally have been called are comparatively mild in comparison to the accusations you level and the way you try and lower the tone of the discussion to your standards!
As for being a naturalist and environmentally minded, that is an unbelievable statement after all the posts you have put up here denying the science!
If you can't put a number on the fish aquaculture supposedly harms, it does not mean we are saying, "You can't prove it." (prompting cries of, "That's just what the tobacco lobby said!")
It means that it has not been measured as of yet and all evidence available shows that it is insignificant when compared to the tally racked up by other human activities.
On the contrary CK it has not been proven to you and your industry’s satisfaction. Just like a fundamentalist who refuses to accept evolution, or climate change deniers who ignore and denigrate all the science of global warming, your kind will NEVER be convinced to abandon your-self righteous “faith” as you simply “know” more than all the scientists that have published papers on the impacts of fish feed lots by virtue of the “religious dogma” you adhere to.
You can't whine about your frustration when your answer to why your fears have not been addressed by regulators is that they are colluding with industry and it's all a big conspiracy.
Talk about frustrating.
The regulators are completely constrained and directed by Harper and the Conservative Government. What we observe as “collusion and conspiracy” is a result yet again of a fundamentalist belief they hold. This belief is that all the problems of the world can be taken care of by unrestrained economic growth, privatisation and “free markets”. They want jobs and growth at ANY cost. Why else would they push so hard for tar sands development, for oil pipelines through the BC wilderness and the halibut quota system? From their misguided and myopic economic viewpoint the wild salmon are a nuisance and get in the way of unfettered development. Much easier to count and “manage” fish in pens, just like counting cows in pens is a lot easier than managing wild buffalo.
So yes they collude and conspire. Not particularly in a deliberate attempt to mislead about fish feed lots per se, but merely in their drive to ensure their economic and business agenda is maintained. Jobs and growth at ANY price is their fundamentalist agenda (after all, all those scientists are wrong about global warming as far as Harper is concerned…..now where have we seen such blind denial before??)
Maybe the rest of the world does not share your perception of risk and is able to see all the elements of the situation and not just the ones that align with your feelings about salmon farms?
You guys get on here and stomp around with your firmly held beliefs thinking because you (have convinced yourself that you) hold the moral high ground that anyone who disagrees is selling out because obviously they wouldn't do what they do if they knew what you knew.
That is a joke.
No CK the joke is you think the “rest of the world” is the issue here. We are NOT talking about the rest of the world, we are talking about informed scientific opinion based on research and facts. You keep talking about “feelings” because that is all your understand. We are talking about facts and those facts are incontrovertible and have been published by many reputable independent journals. The attitude that you continue to deny those facts and denigrate those who publish that information puts you on the lower moral ground CK. We do not have to hold the moral high ground because you put yourself and your industry down there.
And you simply CAN’T know what these published scientists know because you do not have the qualifications to evaluate and criticise the data and findings nor do you have the inclination to educate yourself because your dogmatic self-interest will not allow it.
You may just have to accept the fact that you get what you give, and suck up some jabs put out in response to your pedantic, self-righteous rants.
What hypocrisy! I have just spent some time analysing and refuting YOUR pedantic rant CK. All you ever do is rant and you never answer the published science nor educated posts from people like Agent and Charlie. All you can do is use words like “professor” in a sneering context. To anyone who has any knowledge of the fish feed lot facts and science CK, you are totally not credible and your rants are totally without any intellectual merit at all!!
eman
