Soft-drink makers accused of using 'Big Tobacco playbook' - Salmon Feedlots similar

Whole in the Water

Well-Known Member
In mine and a growing number of people the salmon feedlot industry is to be added to this list of harmful industries trying to constantly spin doctor information to cast their industry in a more favourable light. This article is an interesting read to see how the tobacco, now soft drink and IMHO salmon feedlot industry use similar public relation campaign tactics.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2013/08/26/f-soft-drinks-benefits-risks.html
 
Yup, lots of similarities to the salmon feedlot industry as evidenced by the countless attempts by CK and others to try to derail threads, deflect, deny. There is a reason these companies hire these guys and it's because they are effective at delaying the inevitable and allowing the $$$ to roll in for a while longer. Good article. thx for sharing.
 
David Moran, director of sustainability at Coca-Cola Canada = "sustainability Officer" at Mainstream Canada?

Methinks I see a direct comparison...whenever they wish to snow you - they add the prefix "sustainable" to make it sound better and peddle easier. E.g. "sustainable" aquaculture is one of DFOs mantras in the past couple of years. Wouldn't have the same ring if they called it "unsustainable" aquaculture. Harder to promote that one...
 
Boy, you guys are really stretching this one pretty thin.

As stated in the article, there is no way to consume tobacco safely, and the deplorable conduct of those who worked to downplay and mislead the dangers of smoking is something that will go down in history as one of the most significant corporate/industry misconducts out there - this is not debated by any reasonable person.

When discussing the effects of sugary drinks and the efforts of their producers to ensure that children are consuming them - there may be a similarity, but there is still a significant difference.

Pop can exist in the world without causing ill effect on those who consume it if the consumer is aware of the limits of consumption and lifestyle hazards present.

When attempting to villify the aquaculture industry for promoting a product with recognized health benefits, which is clearly not hazardous to anyone who is able to contextualize levels of contaminants with acceptable amounts and other foodstuffs, by comparing it to the tobacco lobby - you are simply making an unfounded and inflammatory comparison which reflects your perception of the product and not the reality of the situation.

The ridiculous assertion that the continued lack of evidence showing harm from either the production, or consumption of, farmed salmon somehow equates to the tobacco lobby's use of, "You have no proof" is laughable.

Having, at one point in time, quantifiable, tangeable evidence of harm, yet being unable to pinpoint a direct linkage (Cancer-Smoking) is entirely different than having a near complete lack of evidence continually propped by fanatical levels of fear. (Aquaculture-Risk to wild stocks-Risk to health)

Continually focussing on what you think is bad about farmed salmon leads you to miss everything out there that is good about it and all the evidence which shows your claims to be false.

Head in Sand.JPG
 
...When attempting to villify the aquaculture industry for promoting a product with recognized health benefits, which is clearly not hazardous to anyone who is able to contextualize levels of contaminants with acceptable amounts and other foodstuffs ...The ridiculous assertion that the continued lack of evidence showing harm from either the production, or consumption of, farmed salmon somehow equates to the tobacco lobby's use of, "You have no proof" is laughable....View attachment 8759
Thanks for proving the point, CK. It's interesting that you continually post your family photos online...
 
Personally I do think human health risks from farmed fish are stretched especially when compared to other foods most if not all of us eat and enjoy. Its life in the 21st century our food is full of chemicals to help it grow bigger, faster, have an appealing color and texture etc.

It happens in vegetable farming, fish farming, beef and poultry farming etc. etc. it's everywhere.

The similarities come regarding the harm to the environment CK which you deny and claim no proof yet their are countless scientific papers showing the harm salmon farms cause and just like tobacco your industry plays spin doctor and pays scientists to paint a different picture.
 
Personally I do think human health risks from farmed fish are stretched especially when compared to other foods most if not all of us eat and enjoy. Its life in the 21st century our food is full of chemicals to help it grow bigger, faster, have an appealing color and texture etc.

It happens in vegetable farming, fish farming, beef and poultry farming etc. etc. it's everywhere.

The similarities come regarding the harm to the environment CK which you deny and claim no proof yet their are countless scientific papers showing the harm salmon farms cause and just like tobacco your industry plays spin doctor and pays scientists to paint a different picture.

Well said GDW, and like agentaqua said, their response just goes to prove our observations all the more!
 
The similarities come regarding the harm to the environment CK which you deny and claim no proof yet their are countless scientific papers showing the harm salmon farms cause and just like tobacco your industry plays spin doctor and pays scientists to paint a different picture.

Do we pay the wild fish to return to areas around farms too?

"Countless scientific papers" still can't seem to match what it actually seen in the real world.

I'm not talking about absolute proof, or even strong correlation - You guys don't even have a coincidental example which shows the decline of wild stocks in relation to the placement of salmon farms.

Pile up those papers as high as you want - this year there are millions of pinks and coho who disagree, next year it may very well be sockeye and the year after that it will most likely be chum.

If salmon farms harm wild stocks - where is the trend?

Why is it not all the time?

Why not all species?

Why can't it be measured against the background noise of variability? (once you rule out all the ones that are caught and eaten of course)

Maybe if you pulled your head out of the "Salmon farms are/must be bad - therefore blah blah blah" hole, you might be able to see why there are so many people out there who do not share your views.

I think another few years your doom and gloom prophesising, when put up alongside the continued (inevitable unless we eat too many of them) returns of millions of many species of salmon, will start to get a little old with the public.

I think even the press is getting tired of trying to scare people.

Soon you might get asked the question - "If you care so much about them, why do you still kill them?"
 
There he goes again! Just because some wild fish make it back to their native streams everything is all good. Never mind the dramatic decline in Fraser river sockeye, never mind the once thriving prawn holes that are now baron, never mind the massive chum runs up north Alex Morton has watched disappear.

Never mind any of that, there are still some wild salmon left so fish farms are not doing any harm right?
 
CK: You have demonstrated ad nausium that you do not believe what anyone on this forum posts against your views of what you believe REGARDLESS of ANY literature (including peer-reviewed). Your predictable responses are generally based on the arguments developed by the BCSFA and their PR firms:

1/ "na, na - you can't prove it" - Denials - the shifting of the burden of proof argument, where under the precautionary approach it is industry's responsibility to prove they are not having an effect, and to react responsibly to those legitimate concerns rather than dismissing them out of hand,
2/ "I don't like Morton or Krkosek and don't believe anything they say" - Discrediting AND Deflection - the shoot the messenger argument, where industry tries to undermine legitimate scientific research and peer-reviewed science by name association, thereby misdirecting the original critiques,
3/ "Any thing said negatively about our industry is generated by a conspiracy of American NGOs and Alaskan commercial fishing interests so we should all ignore these evil "scaremongering" people" - Discrediting AND Deflection - This is similar to the above argument, but a more general misdirect approach as developed by Vivian Krause,
4/ "Any thing said negatively about our industry is generated by a misinformed public - so we should all ignore these under-educated people" - Discounting AND Deflection - a variation on numbers 2 & 3,
5/ "Any thing that forces our industry to behave like better corporate citizens puts all these jobs at risk" - Dividing AND delaying - this is a fear-based argument that misdirects the focus of legitimate critiques and attempts to paint the argument as a loose-loose scenario where if we acknowledge the risk and deal with it - we end-up loosing our coastal communities. This argument is focused on the more conservative voting public, and does not factor-in the costs externalized to other existing industries already contributing to GDP.

Thank you for illustrating how these arguments are used to the rest of the internet users that troll these forums. Here is a more general list of the ten "D's" used by PR firms and corporate industries from a previous post:

1. Deflection.

2. Delays.
Delays are one of the more common responses that a community initiative may face. With delays, the opposition may say it is working on the problem, when the reality is that nothing is being done. They may also suggest that more information is needed (and form committees to gather it, as evidence of good faith) when there is already plenty of information on the problem. One of the worst consequences of the delay tactic is that it can hurt the momentum of a strong organization, and it can cause community members to lose heart and give up.

3. Denials.
Denial is used when your opponent refuses to admit there is any truth to either: a) the problem you say exists (e.g., "We don't have a problem with teen pregnancy in our community"), or b) the solution that you propose (e.g., "Giving kids condoms won't reduce the pregnancy rate, it will just make them more likely to have intercourse"). A second kind of denial is when an official or other opponent says they would like to help, but don't have the resources or clout necessary to actually make a change.

4. Discounting.
Discounting occurs by suggesting that the problem you are working on isn't really that important ("Our community is basically a healthy place"), or by questioning the legitimacy of your organization or its efforts. In its most extreme form, the latter can take the form of lies, mud slinging, and accusations: "That group is just a bunch of liberals, conservatives, communists... just fill in the blank?."

5. Deception.
Deception is the act of intentionally misleading someone by lying or by "forgetting" to tell the whole story. Deceptions may be carried out in a variety of ways, such as trying to confuse your organization with bureaucratic nonsense and red tape, misrepresenting statistics, or making suggestions that in reality have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

6. Dividing.

7. Dulcifying, or appeasing.
To dulcify an organization is to try to appease or pacify members with small, meaningless concessions. This tactic is particularly tricky because it may be difficult to determine the line between compromise (which your group may find helpful) and allowances that turn out to be meaningless.

8. Discrediting.
Discrediting is similar in many ways to discounting. When a member of the opposition tries to discredit an organization, (s)he may attempt to make your group look incompetent (unreasonable, unnecessary, et cetera) to the community at large. Your motives and ways of accomplishing your goals are both called into question.

9. Destroy.
The destroy tactic has the simple, clear goal of trying to ruin your organization or initiative in any way possible. This method may use one or more of the other tactics as a means to achieve the ends. The threat of a lawsuit is often used in this case (for example, by saying that you have committed slander against an organization); it's important to realize that these threats are usually only words. Make sure you know your rights and have access to legal assistance, and you will be able to contend with even these serious methods of intimidation.

10. Deal..
 
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The Union of Concerned Scientists have published a reference document entitled “ Heads They Win, Tails We Lose - How Corporations Corrupt Science at the Public’s Expense” at: www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity

In it they list the ways corporations abuse the scientific and policy-making processes by:

1/ Corrupting the Science - Corporations that stand to lose from the results of independent scientific inquiry have gone to great lengths to manipulate and control science and scientists by:
a) Terminating and suppressing research. Companies have controlled the dissemination of scientific information by ending or withholding results of research that they sponsor that would threaten their bottom line.
b) Intimidating or coercing scientists. Corporations bury scientific information by harassing scientists and their institutions into silence. Scientists have been threatened with litigation and the loss of their jobs, have had their research de-funded, have been refused promotion or tenure, and have been transferred to non-research positions, leading to self-censorship and changes in research direction.
c) Manipulating study designs and research protocols. Corporations have employed flawed methodologies in testing and research—such as by changing the questions scientists are asking—that are biased toward predetermined results.
d) Ghostwriting scientific articles. Corporations corrupt the integrity of scientific journals by plant¬ing ghostwritten articles about their products. Rather than submitting articles directly, companies recruit scientists or contract with research organizations to publish articles that obscure the sponsors’ involvement.
e) Publication bias. Corporations selectively publish positive results while under-reporting negative results. While not directly corrupting science itself, these publishing and reporting biases skew the body of evidence.

2/ Shaping Public Perception
Armed with public relations teams, private interests have launched campaigns that influence public opinion and undermine understanding of scientific consensus. Among their methods:
a) Downplaying evidence and playing up false uncertainty. As scientific understanding of the health effects of products and substances such as tobacco and particulate emissions emerges, companies fight regulation by attacking the science, downplaying scientific consensus, exaggerating scientific uncertainty and spreading doubt.
b) Vilifying scientists. Scientists analyzing the health and environmental effects of products such as asbestos and lead, and phenomena such as climate change, are publicly criticized and attacked. These attacks and allegations of misconduct dis¬credit the scientists and deter them from continuing their research.
c) Promoting experts who undermine the scientific consensus. Corporations promote individuals who overemphasize research that appears to cast doubt on the scientific consensus. Often their expertise is not in a relevant field, limiting their ability to effectively evaluate the scientific findings they are criticizing.
d) Hiding behind front groups or “capturing” organizations. Companies use front groups, public relations firms, and other paid consultants to covertly advance corporate interests while these entities maintain the illusion of independence.
e) Influencing the media. Corporations inaccurately portray science by feeding the media slanted reports and news stories, or biased spokespeople.

3/ Restricting Agency Effectiveness - Companies engage in activities that undermine the ability of federal agencies to use independent science to regulate products. Companies also advocate for more layers of bureaucracy, and take advantage of inappropriate relationships with agency personnel, to hinder the development of policies that protect the public and the environment.
a) Attacking the science. Corporations have attacked the science used to inform federal policy making in an attempt to delay regulation.
b) Hindering the regulatory process. Corporations advocate for policies that limit the ability of agencies to use the best available science when making decisions. So-called “regulatory reforms” limit agencies’ resources, curb the roladopted flawed methodologies, put direct pressure on scientists and their supervisors to alter findings, and censored scientists to prevent them from speaking publicly or with the media.
c) Corrupting scientific advisory panels. Government agencies rely on independent scientific advisory panels to provide objective advice. But panel members often have undisclosed financial conflicts of interest: ties to companies that stand to win or lose based on the findings of these advisory committees.
d) Spinning the revolving door. Officials shuttle between high-level government positions and regulated industries or corporations. This revolving door can lead to regulatory capture: federal agencies charged with protecting the public can end up as shields or advocates for the regulated industries.
e) Censoring scientists and their research. Federal officials with industry ties have deleted selected evidence from scientific documents, knowingly adopted flawed methodologies, put direct pressure on scientists and their supervisors to alter findings, and censored scientists to prevent them from speaking publicly or with the media.
f) Withholding information from the public. Besides censoring scientists, federal officials acting on behalf of corporate interests have buried scientific findings, delayed the release of information, or otherwise suppressed or withheld scientific information.

5/ Influencing Government and Regulators
Election campaigns compromises the will of elected representatives to respond to the needs of the people they represent. Money and secrecy in lobbying, excessive campaign funding, and a revolving door on Parliament Hill give corporate interests unprecedented and undue access to members of the Cabinet. This influence encourages members to challenge scientific consensus, delay action on critical science-based problems, and shape the use of science in policy making. A recent marked increase in lobbying expenditures, along with greatly relaxed rules on corporate spending on elections, has exacerbated these pressures of science in decision making, or put an extraordinary burden of proof on agencies before they can act.
 
There he goes again! Just because some wild fish make it back to their native streams everything is all good. Never mind the dramatic decline in Fraser river sockeye, never mind the once thriving prawn holes that are now baron, never mind the massive chum runs up north Alex Morton has watched disappear.

Never mind any of that, there are still some wild salmon left so fish farms are not doing any harm right?

Some fish?

Not just SOME fish, LOTS of fish - in lots of places.

For instance:

PinkReturnsGraph04.jpg

Dramatic decline?

If you choose to look outside the "FarmBad" box - No.

For instance:

Fraser Sockeye Returns 1893-2011.jpg
(Fraser Sockeye 1893 - 2011)

2012_return_graph.jpg

Massive chum runs up North? Please explain.

As for prawn holes...
How about No.jpg
[Il0Y16uZmNs] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il0Y16uZmNs
 
Let’s see how well the open net-cage industry rates in this list:

1/ Corrupting the Science
a) Terminating and suppressing research. Look at what the various aquaculture-related industry/DFO funds have been spent on in the past 30-40 years or so. Have you tried to get a scientific permit from DFO lately to study diseases? No?
b) Intimidating or coercing scientists. Hello, Molly and Fred Kibenge, Kristi Miller, Alex Morton, Marty Krkosek, and many, many DFO scientists who will never publically admit it for fear of dismissal and reprimands.
c) Manipulating study designs and research protocols. Ever ask who sits on the various aquaculture-related industry/DFO funding/technical review committee boards over the past 30-40 years or so? Whose names do you find? What projects have been funded and/or approved?
d) Ghostwriting scientific articles. Hello Ken Brooks.
e) Publication bias. Hello internal DFO peer-review processes (e.g. PSARC).

2/ Shaping Public Perception
a) Downplaying evidence and playing up false uncertainty. Main modus operandi for Hill and Knowleton, the industry and the BCSFA
b) Vilifying scientists. Hello, Molly and Fred Kibenge, Kristi Miller, Alex Morton, Marty Krkosek, and many others
c) Promoting experts who undermine the scientific consensus. Hello BCSFA, Moore, Brooks, and a very LONG list of others - pretty much every link CK posts.
d) Hiding behind front groups or “capturing” organizations. Hello First Dollar Alliance, and Positive Aquaculture Awareness.
e) Influencing the media. Hello Patrick Moore, Grydeland, Hill and Knowleton, and a very LONG list of others..

3/ Restricting Agency Effectiveness - Hello DFO and CFIA, and the BCMOA.
a) Attacking the science. Main modus operandi for the industry and the BCSFA.
b) Hindering the regulatory process. Where even to begin, here..
c) Corrupting scientific advisory panels. see 1/a) and 1/c) above.
d) Spinning the revolving door. BIG changes here both provincially and now federally over the past 20 years or so..
e) Censoring scientists and their research. Hello Simon Jones.
f) Withholding information from the public. Hello DFO, CFIA, BCFSA.

5/ Influencing Government and Regulators
Lots of lobbying in Ottawa. Hello Walling, AAC, CAIA, BCSFA, and Bastien/OCAD.
 
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Dang. I knew the 10 "D's" were a comin. Backem into a corner and those things come out every time followed by the whole conspiracy theory layout. Wow.
 
I can make bar graphs and go pro videos too doesn't mean they are accurate. Ask Alex Morton about the chums.

Are you saying SLICE does not effect prawns?
 
Dang. I knew the 10 "D's" were a comin. Backem into a corner and those things come out every time followed by the whole conspiracy theory layout. Wow.
AS 2/a) above. Thanks for the demo, BN.
 
So, prawns are sh*t eaters. No big duh that you find them under fish farms. That's really the problem. Pellets and poo attract detritovores and other critters that feed on them. Soon - it's like a bus terminal under the cages. Someone gets on a bus that has a cold, but sneezes on everyone while in the waiting room. The bus companies get colds and give them to the passengers. THAT's the problem with open net-cages - they are OPEN - duh!
 
So, prawns are sh*t eaters. No big duh that you find them under fish farms. That's really the problem. Pellets and poo attract detritovores and other critters that feed on them. Soon - it's like a bus terminal under the cages. Someone gets on a bus that has a cold, but sneezes on everyone while in the waiting room. The bus companies get colds and give them to the passengers. THAT's the problem with open net-cages - they are OPEN - duh!

Bam - Screenshot.

Amazing logic there Aqua.

Just made my day.
 
I know it's AMAZING to you that the cages are OPEN and you cannot predict or mitigate the interactions with wild stocks, CK. Glad to be of service to you. Nice to see how serious you take your "sustainability" moniker.
 
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