Port alberni sockeye

I can dig into it just don't really have the time right now..at the end of the day.... its like I said before.. this is a round table process that sits face to face looking at all variables and put forward its recommendation to DFO to approves or not.... so fish or don't fish your choice its up to you.. show up to some of the SFAC meeting in Alberni or ask to see the minutes before u judge... now if you want to put forward a concern...hmmm what has happen to the summer steelhead run in the stamp river ?? end of the day this is a hatchery river system simple put ............
 
You may find this an intersting read on sockeye on the west coast. It wasn't that many years ago (prior to the 80's) when the sockeye runs/catches were quite small in Alberni. I gillnetted in the 70's and 80's there and enjoyed the benefits of the lake fertilization programs that resulted in huge returns for a number of years. I believe that Great Central run had some help from the Harrison River but am not 100% certain. Prior to a fish ladder being built at Stamp Falls I don't know how they would get by the falls.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/1999/D6-05e.pdf
 
The only problem I have with your logic Nog is that this is not even a natural Sockeye run. When we talk about the doomsday scenario of a "collapse", well, sockeye didn't even exist here before transplanting.

They did exist in smaller numbers, but were indeed greatly enhanced via several approaches (lake fertilization, fish ladders, broodstock supplementing). Does that somehow make the run less valuable or worthy in your eyes? If so, care to elaborate as to why??

One of the interesting factors regarding this enhanced run is the reams upon reams of information collected, through a wide range of variables and over a period of literally decades. What that data set well recognizes is the ability of the run to not only self sustain, but to provide a healthy excess for harvest - When the escapement figures reach or surpass 400K. That is not "arm chair quarterbacking", it is simply observational fact proven over and over and over again.

In the case of the department, many are aware of their failings of the past. In a myriad of ways, they have given cause for wonderment and critique. Brain Dead however implies a lack of comprehension as to the ramifications of their actions. I do not at all believe that to be the case under discussion. Rather I think they found themselves teetering on a tightrope, with conservation on one side, and greed-fueled politics pulling on the other. Sadly it appears, as happens far too often here, that politics carried the day once again. Unfortunate that precaution and conservation are the casualties to that decision, but I do not believe for a heartbeat the department did not recognize that would be the case.

... while we always want to believe the DFO is brain dead - I suspect there science and statistics are far superior to our arm chair quarterbacking. If they have determined the run is of sufficient size to allow harvesting and sport fishing, then I am happy to let the good taxpayers of this country share in this resource without regret or chastisement.

Should you or any other harvester (tax payer and non taxpayer alike) decide to use this statement / thought to justify your actions, fill your boots. Certainly makes it easier to feign surprise when the old adage regarding turning a blind eye to history's lessons comes back to bite you firmly on the butt. And of course presents a fine target for pointing the finger of blame at besides one's self under the same circumstances...

Cheers,
Nog
 
... while we always want to believe the DFO is brain dead - I suspect there science and statistics are far superior to our arm chair quarterbacking. If they have determined the run is of sufficient size to allow harvesting and sport fishing, then I am happy to let the good taxpayers of this country share in this resource without regret or chastisement.

Certainly no one should simply take the decisions of DFO without question (The collapse of the East coast Cod fishery can always be pointed to) but the point that their information is better than the armchair quarterbacking of individual members of this forum are certainly valid. Being a government organization of course politics are always at the forefront. Normally I'd side with Nogs position on erring on the side of conservation, but for the Alberni sockeye run, with its heavy enhancement component, the run is for all intents and purposes a hatchery run, and as such the balance of utilization and conservation tips towards a utilization bias in my opinion. The 400K number seems to be arbitrary, and may be based based on sustaining the high numbers of fish early in the enhancement program. Every enhancement program has a profile of early high numbers of fish returns followed by diminished returns as the programs mature, so its very likely this 400K number is not a number that is attainable, nor perhaps needed for the sustainable number of fish this run is capable of going forward most years. The harvest levels do not run the risk of destroying the run, at worst case scenario they could reduce the run in 4 years below the levels of a commercial harvests, and even this is debatable. . Wild, non-enhanced stocks should be protected at all costs above all utilization, and should only be enhanced as a last resort, but intensively enhanced runs with even modest surplus returns can and should be available for utilization of those surpluses. The Alberni sockeye run seems to be at the margin of this surplus level this year, the decision has been made to open the fishery, I think people who decide to go out and legally fish their 2 sockeye per day shouldn't be guilted about it.
 
There are some very competent people within DFO who do great work and know there stuff. The stats that they compile on fish stocks, etc are better than any other group (rec, comm, FN). They are far from perfect but they are still the best stats available when looking at large scale fisheries. The problem is that the bureaucrats and their influencers (mainly lobbyists) often cause them to act in ways that are not in the best interests of sustainable fishing. The cod stock collapse was not caused by lack of data... they had all of the data they needed to know things were going down... it was caused by greed, stupidity and corruption. And the same sort of thing can happen to our BC fish stocks if we keep allowing corporate dollars to influence gov't decisions.

... while we always want to believe the DFO is brain dead - I suspect there science and statistics are far superior to our arm chair quarterbacking. If they have determined the run is of sufficient size to allow harvesting and sport fishing, then I am happy to let the good taxpayers of this country share in this resource without regret or chastisement.

Certainly no one should simply take the decisions of DFO without question (The collapse of the East coast Cod fishery can always be pointed to) but the point that their information is better than the armchair quarterbacking of individual members of this forum are certainly valid. Being a government organization of course politics are always at the forefront. Normally I'd side with Nogs position on erring on the side of conservation, but for the Alberni sockeye run, with its heavy enhancement component, the run is for all intents and purposes a hatchery run, and as such the balance of utilization and conservation tips towards a utilization bias in my opinion. The 400K number seems to be arbitrary, and may be based based on sustaining the high numbers of fish early in the enhancement program. Every enhancement program has a profile of early high numbers of fish returns followed by diminished returns as the programs mature, so its very likely this 400K number is not a number that is attainable, nor perhaps needed for the sustainable number of fish this run is capable of going forward most years. The harvest levels do not run the risk of destroying the run, at worst case scenario they could reduce the run in 4 years below the levels of a commercial harvests, and even this is debatable. . Wild, non-enhanced stocks should be protected at all costs above all utilization, and should only be enhanced as a last resort, but intensively enhanced runs with even modest surplus returns can and should be available for utilization of those surpluses. The Alberni sockeye run seems to be at the margin of this surplus level this year, the decision has been made to open the fishery, I think people who decide to go out and legally fish their 2 sockeye per day shouldn't be guilted about it.
 
... Normally I'd side with Nogs position on erring on the side of conservation, but for the Alberni sockeye run, with its heavy enhancement component, the run is for all intents and purposes a hatchery run, and as such the balance of utilization and conservation tips towards a utilization bias in my opinion.

While I do not necessarily agree, I can understand this position.
However if one were to adhere to that stance, would that not also suggest that efforts should be extended to maximize the harvestable surplus for all?

The 400K number seems to be arbitrary, and may be based based on sustaining the high numbers of fish early in the enhancement program. Every enhancement program has a profile of early high numbers of fish returns followed by diminished returns as the programs mature, so its very likely this 400K number is not a number that is attainable, nor perhaps needed for the sustainable number of fish this run is capable of going forward most years.

No, the 400K number is far from "arbitrary". A little online research would have answered that question for you before you even asked.
It was the "target" escapement (exceeded) for last year's run, and in fact is a very good predictor of what can / will be expected as far as progeny numbers down the road. The years that number is achieved (and it is the "usual" target except in years of low returns - such as this) the following four year cycle is nearly always of a correspondingly high number.

The years the escapement falls shy of that number have been proven problematic. For instance the brood stock year that produced this year's run (2013) was in the close neighborhood of 200K (about where it is today). From previous years data we already knew that would mean a depressed run for this year as the pattern has been well established. IMO the initial reaction from the department to keep it closed as a consequence was the right decision.

Analyzing the huge data set we have on this run well points out that to achieve desired population levels (and therefore maximize both escapement and harvest numbers) the escapement target should be centered on 400K as noted. Were the escapement to be allowed to approach that number in the case of "off" or low cycle years, it is entirely likely we would see a more stable and increased run size (reduce the number and level of fluctuations) which would benefit not only the fish, but all user groups alike. While this would obviously require keeping it closed for all sectors for the season in question, the eventual benefits of doing so far outweigh the consequences of not.

Will the run be destroyed by this year's activities? Most likely not.
But what these actions do is very much ensure we will be right back in the same position we started with this year in four years time.
For that reason, I believe management's decision to bow to the pressure of the commercial operators and open it for all to be a mistake.

The folks who head out and collect their FOUR fish per day are the smallest part of the problem. However when combined with the commercial and FN removals, the cumulative overall effects are demonstrably counterproductive if managing for either conservation or utilitarian purposes. It is completely up to the individual to decide if they want to be part of that process...

Insanity is often referred to as repeating history while expecting a different outcome...

Cheers,
Nog
 
And... With 220K up the ditch, it is time to unleash Jimmy's seiners for a four day opening (with extensions)!

http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=198364&ID=all

Of course even with the near complete lack of four year olds, and not at the escapement target for the recognizably reduced run, DFO decided to "upgrade" by 50,000 pieces to make this so. :confused:

Damn Sad Times to be a sockeye here... :(

Pissed,
Nog
 
And... With 220K up the ditch, it is time to unleash Jimmy's seiners for a four day opening (with extensions)!

http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=198364&ID=all

Of course even with the near complete lack of four year olds, and not at the escapement target for the recognizably reduced run, DFO decided to "upgrade" by 50,000 pieces to make this so. :confused:

Damn Sad Times to be a sockeye here... :(

Pissed,
Nog
Hey Nog do you know if FN are on broad with this four day opening ?? Me thinks there the only ones that can stop it !!!
 
Hey Nog do you know if FN are on broad with this four day opening ?? Me thinks there the only ones that can stop it !!!

Round Table process. Due to their own actions, they cannot really say no at this point (when run size prediction gets upgraded). I know many that are livid over the entire scenario.

At this point, there is NO WAY to stop the Juggernaut... :(

Nog
 
Round Table process. Due to their own actions, they cannot really say no at this point (when run size prediction gets upgraded). I know many that are livid over the entire scenario.

At this point, there is NO WAY to stop the Juggernaut... :(

Nog
Not even Jimmy would run over a skiff full of FN in a road block.
 
Round Table process. Due to their own actions, they cannot really say no at this point (when run size prediction gets upgraded). I know many that are livid over the entire scenario.

At this point, there is NO WAY to stop the Juggernaut... :(

Nog

With the run size being upgraded I would have to agree that some of that should also be going to shoring up the spawning population, not taking it ALL for harvest. I supported a bias toward utilization, not a monopoly. All user groups have had a chance to harvest some fish, the river should get some of the upgrade too.
 
With the run size being upgraded I would have to agree that some of that should also be going to shoring up the spawning population, not taking it ALL for harvest...

The latest update notes: "A run size of 375,000 was adopted by the Area 23 Harvest Committee for fishery management planning purposes."
Pay attention to that last part. The upgrade is one of "convenience" that allows further fishing on this reduced stock. It is not based much in reality, as witnessed by the fact that the combined escapement and catch to date is a long ways from reaching said number.

But, the FN's are going full roar, there are gillnet openings planned, and even the seiners can get in on it at that prediction level. And they are all being planned for or under execution as we speak.

As far as the river goes, I guess we supposed to be "happy" with what it got already... :confused:

Sadly,
Nog
 
As far as the river goes, I guess we supposed to be "happy" with what it got already... :confused:

Sadly,
Nog

I guess so.

P.S. I wish you the best on your ongoing eye issues. I spent much of my career working in the Pharmaceutical business marketing drugs to retina specialists for diseases like Age-Related Macular degeneration and Diabetic Macular Edema, so pretty familiar with what they do. They are some of the highest trained medical specialists there are, I certainly hope yours can repair your retinal damage.
 
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