IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
The Pressure from the Fish Brokers continues: http://gulftrollers.com/pipermail/l...chments/20110110/6d7144b2/attachment-0003.pdf
PHMA Steps Up Propaganda Machine
- Thread starter IronNoggin
- Start date
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Tagged it from another Forum. From the way it is worded, I'd suggest this was circulated last year some time. Does show the mindset though...
Cheers,
Nog
Good point. I was allowed to keep two clipped Coho today but did not feel like going out. So I still have those fish and would like to lease out the right to catch them to anyone who would like to catch 4 tomorrow instead of just two. That's how it works for the Fish Lords and Slipper Skippers.
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lorneparker1
Banned
LOL
Lorne
Lorne
fish4all
Well-Known Member
And when was Gail Shea minister? This is old
Charlie
Well-Known Member
I guess I might be a little confused here?
The title of that is, “RECREATIONAL FISHING SECTOR LOBBYING AGAINST 88/12 ALLOCATION POLICY” and believe it is currently now 85/15, isn't it?And then… not sure how much good it will do for anyone to contact, “The Honourable Gail Shea”
Is that current or old? and/or what am I missing?
Little Hawk
Active Member
Regardless how old it is, I sure got a kick out of this:
"The lodges and charter vessels need to enter the 21st century and DFO may have to drag them there kicking and screaming."
Confusion seems evident here concerning who is about to get dragged...
"The lodges and charter vessels need to enter the 21st century and DFO may have to drag them there kicking and screaming."
Confusion seems evident here concerning who is about to get dragged...
wstcoaster
Member
i dont think the fishermen fishing rental quotas are blind as to whats happening to them;most think it should be use it or lose it; its not just the halibut that is leased some other rockfish quotes go with it; if f0lded in with owned quotas good fishermen can still make a buck fishing it; not opposed to sports getting a little more quota as long as we are compensated for it; it cost us 26$ a pound for most of our; to us 3% is a lot of our income to just give away; no one gifted us anything; fishers who got some earned it for many years of low prices and very dangerous work; quotas were imposed on fishing industery; not for conservation but to save lives and promote better markets; as happened before high value for halibut there was little sport interest; so 88/12 was adopted no word from sports at that time
ziggy
Well-Known Member
If it costs you $26 a pound how do you make a profit? Are you sure you have the right figure, it doesn't make sense? Also I don't buy quotas were for safety. I think what you mean is they shut down the rodeo fishing whereby you got as much as you could before it was cut off forcing people to taske chances, but the quota whether it was for a total catch or an individual catch was always for conservation. Finally I don't think you can give away what you don't own, the resource belongs to all Canadians.Sadly some Canadians are able to make a profit selling their right to fish to other Canadians and make a buck off having had a license or lease for our joint resource .
lorneparker1
Banned
Ziggy, my assumption is that the 26 a lb was a one time fee based on the market at that Time. Which considering I've heard its in the neighbourhood of 60 a lb to purchase now, and the 5-7 a lb the fish sell for. If it was a one time fee these folks should have a pretty huge ROI. I don't know any of what i just said as fact but.it makes sense to me, why if I put myself in thier shoes I would be raging as well. Until we become more accountable for our catch stats we are just pissing in the wind IMO
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wstcoaster
Member
Concervation of the resource has always been the priority;.allocations for sporties is a recent adaptation;its managed by international commission to set quotas; and is one of the best managed fisheries in world most of its directors have been commercial fishermen yanks and canucks google internation halibut commission; and learn about this resource before yapping off i dont think anybody is trying to give anything away just hold onto what they have
Sculpin
Well-Known Member
We know all about the allocations. Remember when it was 80/20 wstcoaster? and you ***** that we went from 12 to 15!
It's the International PACIFIC Halibut Commission to correct you. http://www.iphc.int/ . Yes a lot of us read up on it quite regularly
.
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ziggy
Well-Known Member
Well sport, you just lost me with your yapping off comment. You can tell when a fool has no logical point when he reverts to name calling. Grow up! You own nothing, you simply lease it,but if you are an example of the sense of entitlement commercial fishermen have, its clearly time for a change. Take the time to re read your own posts, you said Quotas were for safety not conservation in your first post then changed when challenged to say they were for conservation in your second? So who's yapping off? Me or you who is unsure of even what your point was?
Englishman
Well-Known Member
Rockfish,
That is so funny and says it all right there. It demonstrates clearly the huge fallacy in principle of someone "owning" fish in the ocean they have not caught!!
P.S. I'd buy some chinook quota off you instead but unfortunately the fish can't read the bill of sale so they still won't bite for me!! LOL
ziggy
Well-Known Member
Halibut was selling for $22 a pound this year, I don't get how anyone who pays $26 let alone $60 makes a profit? What am I missing?
lorneparker1
Banned
let me try and clarify. the difference is quota vs catch.
again, these are only assumptions because i dont know if it was a one time fee or not, but im pretty sure it was. Also my numbers are probably not that accurate, so take it for what its worth!
So commie goes and buys quota for $26 lb
he sells His catch to the market for $5-$10 a pound
Market sells it for $22 a lb
So commie sells his catch for $5-$10 a lb for a few years to the market. After a few years, that asset is free and clear(the quota that he paid $26 a lb for), and the money making starts. Now there is still plenty of operating costs etc, however the quota has paid for it self( the way i understand it) and as time passes, the quota that he once paid $26 for appreaciates and is now worth $60ish lb if he were to sell it to another commie. TO me that is an amazing ROI, and i cant get why they are so pissed. Which is why i have always stated and advocated for us to have to buy the quota back (via halibut stamp or some other income generating avenue).
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fish4all
Well-Known Member
Well if you have no real idea on now it works then why post mis-information?
Back when the TAC was at 11million pounds and prices were in the $3 range quota could have been purchased for $26/lb. alot has changed since then.
1) Tac has dropped by 50% that has put pressure on the market place and prices have increased both in the stores and for quota. It is also the reason the commercial sector has consoiidated.
2) for easy math the guy who bought 10,000 lbs back then now has <5000 lbs of that to catch today.
3) government decided it was a good idea to buy up 17 % of the commercial sector and give it to the natives. That has done nothing but increase leasing as the natives for the most part are not interested in the fishing but would rather sit at home an lease.
this is also problamatic as DFO is understaffed and that 17% was just realeased to the bands in late August. that is why there is still 1.5 million to catch.
4) like all investments most fishing licence prices are based on a 10yr buyout. That is they are priced in a way that it takes roughly 10years to pay for your initial investment before you make any money. I would say at todays prices closeer to 12-14 years.
5) fishermen sell the whole fish to a buyer for $7/lb. the FILLETS (roughly 50-55% of the round weight) are sold in stores at today i think $18/lb
6) i would say it is more about trying to survive and make a living rather than greed. With the decline in salmon (for what ever reasons you choose to believe) the groundfish industry has become the backbone of the commercial industry.
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lorneparker1
Banned
Well not much of what i said was that far off
Few questions. When the goverment bought up that 17% what did they pay for it? and who got paid? MY Assumption is a a commerical fisherman that was either gifted it inthe first place or a guy that paid 26 a lb, which im sure that is not what it sold for.
The less TAC to catch reflects the higher quota price obviously. but for rough numbers, the quota back then was $26 a lb and is now $60 a lb(im sure you can confirm that) so in the end dollar for dollar its still worth more. $26x 100lb is $2600 and $60x 50b is $3000. I can also say without a doubt if we ever get back to 11 miilion pounds the price of quota will not drop anywhere near the 26 a lb it was orgianlly.
Your point that it takes 10+ years to make any money is ridculous. It may take 10 years to pay off the asset(the quota) if you ammortize it over 10 years. and hey if its interest free why the hell wouldnt you! but its not like you dont make any money before that asset is paid off. NO company would survive for 10 years without making money, Get a grip.
Heres some more math
100,000lb at 26 lbs=2.6million amortized over 10 years 260k a year
100,000lb at $7 lb- 700,000 in revenue just in halibut (im sure most halibut fisherman fish other rockfish)
Now i have no clue what a commercial boat cost but lets say 1 million over 10 years. so another 100k a year
i also have no clue what operating expenses are (wages, fuel, bait, hooks, etc) but lets assume like any well run business its 30-40% of revenue. so maybe another 200k.
So in the end you have 700k in revenue 600 or so k in expenses still leaves room at the end. not alot but some as in those operating costs are a salary for yourself im sure. And once you are free and clear on your boat and your quota, its BIG MONEY. so you have to live likea normal person for some years, then once your major assets are paid off you now own a quota that has doubled in price, and a 1 million dollar boat. Plus you arent paying into that(well im sure theres plenty of $$$ in keep the boat running) so that excess goes into your jeans. which i think is a great business, which is why as mentioned, i think we should have to pay for the quota to get it back. Its not fair to the commercial guy as he madea sound investment which we got the short end of the stick. But lets call a spade a spade, if you arent making money with that business model, you shouldnt be in business. Same with the other commercial entiy(guides and lodges)
I dont know alot, but i know common sense, i know business and i know mathematics
Lorne
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