Low ph and salmon productivity

[Fishmyster]

quote from AA
Been down this road many times now, FM. Pinks & chums don't use the FW to rear their juvies - but spawn only - and sockeye generally use lakes - with their own lake chemistry. So changes in FW pH would have limited - if any - effects on them. You consistently ignore this reality in your blind belief that water chemistry is always the culprit in any negative or positive change in salmon population numbers.

So - no - quite simply you are wrong in your assumptions wrt the role of pH in all species and stock interactions - and the role of fish farms. I believe that the lack of response by other authorities demonstrates their similar unease in dealing with someone whom appears obviously unfamiliar with anadromous salmon lifecycles.

Is that your final answer?
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...omes-acidic/&usg=AOvVaw0IPx83ttr9-54psDiWr3Kr
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...607.75565.74&usg=AOvVaw0_4Pci80d0qrZOHsTBL4X8
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...actsheet.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0QbT8tOV6JVayYVR1jl4x4

 

[Fishmyster]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...2/PM-Ch5.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1xG8qjMwpcsiVgUrTtsd5_
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...y/252551.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3FjdW0c1Ax2Zb3J2llc9wg
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...cts-2015.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Ko62n8mYxhZdb3kN9c-Wt

 

[Birdsnest]

Been down this road many times now, FM. Pinks & chums don't use the FW to rear their juvies - but spawn only - and sockeye generally use lakes - with their own lake chemistry. So changes in FW pH would have limited - if any - effects on them. You consistently ignore this reality in your blind belief that water chemistry is always the culprit in any negative or positive change in salmon population numbers.

So - no - quite simply you are wrong in your assumptions wrt the role of pH in all species and stock interactions - and the role of fish farms. I believe that the lack of response by other authorities demonstrates their similar unease in dealing with someone whom appears obviously unfamiliar with anadromous salmon lifecycles.

So freshwater stream and river PH change has no effect on the maturation/development of pink, sockeye, and chum eggs because they don't eat any available feed sources in these systems? The science is settled on this? Can you show me 1 or 2 studies that suggest egg development for these species is unaffected by any changes in PH for the entire cycle of any of these species? It seems unscientific of you to so blatantly state there is no relationship here, period. This is complex biology.

 

[Birdsnest]

This is a real pickle for agent. On the Climate front agent would be all about any devastating news re effects of man made emissions on ocean acidity etc as we have seen before. Yet on the fish farm front the fingers must all point to the fish farms to blame so nope acidic rivers have no effect. Hypocritical behaviour if you ask me. Irresponsible and dishonest posting.
Attn: fogged in and admin, my post only attacks agents posts and is nothing personal. I just feel that if any member is going to post in a such a manor it is ok to point it out. It my opinion and as I have shown in the past I am willing to be corrected. If I am wrong show me.

 

[browningmirage]

Speaking with at least some familiarity, and based on the systems I work with, freshwater productivity is extremely high right now, but the juvies that are produced are dying in the ocean.

If pH were responsible, we would expect to see low freshwater juvenile production over the range of Pacific salmon, which we do not see. There may be a problem in the FW, but right now the bottleneck is the ocean.

 

[Fishmyster]

Hello browningmirage
Thank you for engaging in this discussion. Do you have some stats of out migrating smolts.

 

[Fishmyster]

AA I still would like to here from you too. I haven't had time to dig very deep into direct effects of pH on salmon development but so far my internet findings have revealed a very long list of studies and reports that indicate that low pH is very harmful!! What have you been finding?

 

[browningmirage]

It's in all of the publicly available data, look at the DFO and FLNRO continuously monitored systems. Some systems are 4-5 times as productive as historical, but with marine survival into the 0.05% range.

There is an impact in freshwater that's important and shouldn't be ignored, but I dont think I'd be remiss to suggest that the marine environment is the challenge. The problem with climate change is the unpredictability in impacts on a cold water species that can benefit by transient improvements in productivity in concert with the other impacts of increased CO2

 

[Dave]

Pleasure to have you posting browningmirage. Always good to have more knowledge.

 

[GLG]

So freshwater stream and river PH change has no effect on the maturation/development of pink, sockeye, and chum eggs because they don't eat any available feed sources in these systems? The science is settled on this? Can you show me 1 or 2 studies that suggest egg development for these species is unaffected by any changes in PH for the entire cycle of any of these species? It seems unscientific of you to so blatantly state there is no relationship here, period. This is complex biology.

The first link in the first post describes what can happen under year 2100 scenario. Here is a link to the paper.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncl...&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Fishmyster]

It's in all of the publicly available data, look at the DFO and FLNRO continuously monitored systems. Some systems are 4-5 times as productive as historical, but with marine survival into the 0.05% range.

There is an impact in freshwater that's important and shouldn't be ignored, but I dont think I'd be remiss to suggest that the marine environment is the challenge. The problem with climate change is the unpredictability in impacts on a cold water species that can benefit by transient improvements in productivity in concert with the other impacts of increased CO2

I looked for a while where you mentioned but couldn't find the long term outmigration data. Which streams are 4-5 times more productive than here? I am wondering, have you and your people considered that freshwater issues do extend out past fry counting fences or past tidal boundaries?

Attached is a report from Englishman river spawning channel. In 2012 there are over 5000 macro invertebrates per m2 then in 2014-2015 the invertebrate count goes down to aprox. 1000 per m2. Even though invertebrate productivity drops to 20% of the previous the 2012 count do you feel that salmon fry production is unaffected or remains consistent?

I know it is felt that the marine environment is where most of the salmon population deficiencies are happening. I have no doubt that there has been major issues there too but we will likely never be able to effect those conditions. I am in belief that there has been a die off of supporting ecology in fresh water, [which I have witnessed], that has been underestimated. In my opinion looking for ways to create suitable freshwater quality conditions that supporting ecology flourishes in would be a good way to enhance salmon because the ocean is just too vast. Your thoughts?

 

[Fishmyster]

The first link in the first post describes what can happen under year 2100 scenario. Here is a link to the paper.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2694.epdf?referrer_access_token=ZgfCz3uEhH4tipNoy_G9OdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MWbDHW2ymChH5KgGKG3dKFua9oqdvv7FCCTIX3llphAaryaLlFhcWmEsTaa2mBdympa7n1GqylbaC-buCV3SsmexGSyxjFV-0lshETmaR_3pyaAgyaqoY9lL1h2ddE9qete5BKLem63h9vlO3rxBbCa8u1EHbKRZbmvCq8l9RjB8wMRVuVE5IPmiKRO2Mvc_QvqApSz8Bmcdjs9d6yfbzx0X2vLlrGatogcp9ZUq_UtA==&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

Thanks GLG I like that one! Interesting how pH drop induced by co2 had more negative effects then pH reduction done with HCI. I wonder what the alkalinity was of the water used in the fw tanks or if there was much for suspended heavy metals present which would also have varied effects. Reading that doesn't give much optimism for the future!
Thankfully I have seen improvements in fw ecology so hopefully it is other parameters that have been causing the drastic changes and they are improving. Keeps me optimistic at least!!!

 

[browningmirage]

I looked for a while where you mentioned but couldn't find the long term outmigration data. Which streams are 4-5 times more productive than here? I am wondering, have you and your people considered that freshwater issues do extend out past fry counting fences or past tidal boundaries?

Attached is a report from Englishman river spawning channel. In 2012 there are over 5000 macro invertebrates per m2 then in 2014-2015 the invertebrate count goes down to aprox. 1000 per m2. Even though invertebrate productivity drops to 20% of the previous the 2012 count do you feel that salmon fry production is unaffected or remains consistent?

I know it is felt that the marine environment is where most of the salmon population deficiencies are happening. I have no doubt that there has been major issues there too but we will likely never be able to effect those conditions. I am in belief that there has been a die off of supporting ecology in fresh water, [which I have witnessed], that has been underestimated. In my opinion looking for ways to create suitable freshwater quality conditions that supporting ecology flourishes in would be a good way to enhance salmon because the ocean is just too vast. Your thoughts?

On VI, I know about the Keogh, Black Creek and Carnation Creek wild coho long term indicators.

I'm not saying that there are no freshwater issues, but sub 1% marine survival on coho is a problem, even if you can maximize freshwater production, a population wont sustain with poor marine survival. Freshwater production can buffer poor marine survival, but not at the levels we are seeing.

The ocean seems like a black hole, but there are a lot of really smart people trying to understand what mechanisms are at play, and each piece of the puzzle that's understood opens up potential management options that wouldn't otherwise exist. Especially in the face of climate change we need as many tools in the shed as we can get!

A good example is size biased survival for smolts. It used to be that big smolts survived better, but that relationship broke down in the 90s. Thanks to efforts in the SOG, we have solid ideas of what might cause that relationship to break down, and options to fix it.

I dont think you are on the wrong track with water quality, but I think we need to look broadly. The reality is we are faced with the uncertainty of additive and synergistic impacts of a changing climate, environment, disease, and forage availability, and there isnt one smoking gun. Having said that, each component understood is another opportunity to create solutions that will keep these animals around for the long term.

 

[Fishmyster]

On VI, I know about the Keogh, Black Creek and Carnation Creek wild coho long term indicators.

I'm not saying that there are no freshwater issues, but sub 1% marine survival on coho is a problem, even if you can maximize freshwater production, a population wont sustain with poor marine survival. Freshwater production can buffer poor marine survival, but not at the levels we are seeing.

The ocean seems like a black hole, but there are a lot of really smart people trying to understand what mechanisms are at play, and each piece of the puzzle that's understood opens up potential management options that wouldn't otherwise exist. Especially in the face of climate change we need as many tools in the shed as we can get!

A good example is size biased survival for smolts. It used to be that big smolts survived better, but that relationship broke down in the 90s. Thanks to efforts in the SOG, we have solid ideas of what might cause that relationship to break down, and options to fix it.

I dont think you are on the wrong track with water quality, but I think we need to look broadly. The reality is we are faced with the uncertainty of additive and synergistic impacts of a changing climate, environment, disease, and forage availability, and there isnt one smoking gun. Having said that, each component understood is another opportunity to create solutions that will keep these animals around for the long term.

If you have worked on those projects thank you for the years of service. Information from those has been some of my favorite reading.

I am still curious of your thoughts with the CW Young channel? There was an 80% reduction in stream invertebrates from 2012-2015. This is in the shelter of a custom channel where floods, drought or heat stress should not be a limiting factor. Do you feel that an 80% reduction in supporting freshwater ecology over two years could be worth studying?

Please google "global insect decline" and read a few of the news reports. This is exactly what I have seen locally. The die off of insects Chronologically aligns with our great decline in salmon stocks. I also believe this is worth researching.

I have heard there are still big gaps in knowledge and this is one of them. If we can find out the forces that caused the reduction of ecology in Young channel and mitigate them it will put one more tool in the box to help salmon.

 

[chris73]

I agree that fw quality needs to be looked at and monitored. Adverse water quality in salmon's freshwater lifestage can set them in a weakened state of condition as they outmigrate and could lead to rapid die offs. I look after the water quality for a decent stretch of land on VI which includes the watersheds of 2 major salmon bearing streams. I have in depth wq data for about 30 years and cannot confirm any major shifts or changes in the freshwater ecology within this area. And I regularly converse with peers from neighbouring regions and would have certainly learned of any alarming data there. So at this time, based on data on hand, I would not consider the physiochemical properties of our freshwater a major isssue in terms of salmon productivity. Logging, urban encroachment etc of course do have localized effects on water chemistry and quality but I don't see the general paradigm shift you seem to be observing.

 

[cuttlefish]

I looked for a while where you mentioned but couldn't find the long term outmigration data. Which streams are 4-5 times more productive than here? I am wondering, have you and your people considered that freshwater issues do extend out past fry counting fences or past tidal boundaries?

Attached is a report from Englishman river spawning channel. In 2012 there are over 5000 macro invertebrates per m2 then in 2014-2015 the invertebrate count goes down to aprox. 1000 per m2. Even though invertebrate productivity drops to 20% of the previous the 2012 count do you feel that salmon fry production is unaffected or remains consistent?

I know it is felt that the marine environment is where most of the salmon population deficiencies are happening. I have no doubt that there has been major issues there too but we will likely never be able to effect those conditions. I am in belief that there has been a die off of supporting ecology in fresh water, [which I have witnessed], that has been underestimated. In my opinion looking for ways to create suitable freshwater quality conditions that supporting ecology flourishes in would be a good way to enhance salmon because the ocean is just too vast. Your thoughts?

Thanks for sharing that file. I'm no expert on water quality and will leave that assessment to others on here who have better knowledge of such. It is an interesting consideration. In that vein, it seems to me that it would be easy enough to overlay spawner returns to and fry production from the CWYoung channel.

 

[browningmirage]

If you have worked on those projects thank you for the years of service. Information from those has been some of my favorite reading.

I am still curious of your thoughts with the CW Young channel? There was an 80% reduction in stream invertebrates from 2012-2015. This is in the shelter of a custom channel where floods, drought or heat stress should not be a limiting factor. Do you feel that an 80% reduction in supporting freshwater ecology over two years could be worth studying?

Please google "global insect decline" and read a few of the news reports. This is exactly what I have seen locally. The die off of insects Chronologically aligns with our great decline in salmon stocks. I also believe this is worth researching.

I have heard there are still big gaps in knowledge and this is one of them. If we can find out the forces that caused the reduction of ecology in Young channel and mitigate them it will put one more tool in the box to help salmon.

80% reduction but in a very short time series of data so the 2012 might have been an anomaly.

FLNRO has been collecting invert data associated with FRPA, not sure what format it's in, but might be worth a look.

 

[Fishmyster]

I agree that fw quality needs to be looked at and monitored. Adverse water quality in salmon's freshwater lifestage can set them in a weakened state of condition as they outmigrate and could lead to rapid die offs. I look after the water quality for a decent stretch of land on VI which includes the watersheds of 2 major salmon bearing streams. I have in depth wq data for about 30 years and cannot confirm any major shifts or changes in the freshwater ecology within this area. And I regularly converse with peers from neighbouring regions and would have certainly learned of any alarming data there. So at this time, based on data on hand, I would not consider the physiochemical properties of our freshwater a major isssue in terms of salmon productivity. Logging, urban encroachment etc of course do have localized effects on water chemistry and quality but I don't see the general paradigm shift you seem to be observing.

The downward shift in aquatic insects has been noticed by others.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...r-1.23375231&usg=AOvVaw3WXdH8IyaLU08JlApTkdhj
Although Joe assumes it is sunscreen I like entomologists in other parts of the world are seeing it even in remote pristine locations where sunscreen would not be a factor.

 

[Fishmyster]

80% reduction but in a very short time series of data so the 2012 might have been an anomaly.

FLNRO has been collecting invert data associated with FRPA, not sure what format it's in, but might be worth a look.

Yes, it would be worth the look!!
I am a total fanatic river fisherman and ecologist at heart. My youth was spent fishing, camping and crawling around VI creeks. In the mid 1980's I lived for a few years on French creek at my grandparents house. As kids we were often told to go play down at the creek and leave the adults alone. We would come running back screaming that the bugs were too bad! It was one of my favorite activities to pull caddis from their cases and feed them to juvenile sh and coho. In September 2014 I took a wander to my old playground to have a look. There was all the same disastrous situation that I have seen in all streams being no insects. The common caddis which I used to feed to the fish was nowhere to be found! In the September 1980's that stream would have green filamentous algae thousands of assorted invertebrates and fat healthy coho and SH fry. My 2014 visit was another very disappointing confirmation that the die off of ecology I witnessed was everywhere.
I could go on for days with stories of lost ecology in streams where I have been visiting since the 1980's but it would take days of typing. There has been a common trend where a stream looses it's invertebrates, decomposition slows down dramatically and algae species changes. I know there is already many very intelligent people working to figure out why salmon populations are dwindling but somehow this die off of ecology has been happening without recognition.
I have all kinds of supporting reports and data for my assumptions but the files will not load into sfbc forum. Give me a call anytime and I would chat or meet to share this information. Ken Myers 250-720-5118.

 

[searun]

On VI, I know about the Keogh, Black Creek and Carnation Creek wild coho long term indicators.

I'm not saying that there are no freshwater issues, but sub 1% marine survival on coho is a problem, even if you can maximize freshwater production, a population wont sustain with poor marine survival. Freshwater production can buffer poor marine survival, but not at the levels we are seeing.

The ocean seems like a black hole, but there are a lot of really smart people trying to understand what mechanisms are at play, and each piece of the puzzle that's understood opens up potential management options that wouldn't otherwise exist. Especially in the face of climate change we need as many tools in the shed as we can get!

A good example is size biased survival for smolts. It used to be that big smolts survived better, but that relationship broke down in the 90s. Thanks to efforts in the SOG, we have solid ideas of what might cause that relationship to break down, and options to fix it.

I dont think you are on the wrong track with water quality, but I think we need to look broadly. The reality is we are faced with the uncertainty of additive and synergistic impacts of a changing climate, environment, disease, and forage availability, and there isnt one smoking gun. Having said that, each component understood is another opportunity to create solutions that will keep these animals around for the long term.

Have to agree with you here. There is strong evidence that larger out-migrant smolts are now preferred prey for some harbour seals that have become smolt predator experts. Some recent research showing that up to 47% of out-migrant Chinook, for example, are being consumed within a very short time period of emerging from their natal river estuaries. The issues facing survival are of course more profoundly complex than just pinniped predation. Water quality is certainly a factor, the question is where does that sit on a scale of 1 - 10 when we start looking at where to spend limited resources to help address the limiting factors impacting salmon and steelhead. I have heard recently of some pretty impressive freshwater productivity for steelhead - so perhaps the bottleneck isn't water quality as much as it is other areas.

The other big question also being, even if we did determine that water quality was in the top 10 list, what practical solutions could be implemented on a local level that redress the problem? Other than using some polyphosphates, I'm not aware of simple pragmatic solutions we could deploy to help address water quality - thoughts?