Hatcheries

[Bear]

Has it come to your attention that rivers that have a hatchery are losing their native runs? Hatcheries were supposed to enhance the population of fish while allowing the native stock to recover. This has not been the case. Some American hatcheries have been shut down for that reason.

The native stocks are mixed with the hatchery stock and deleting the natural genetics. I am not a Bioligist or fisheries tech. Just a concerned fisherman who sees our native runs being depleted.

Put and take fisheries are o.k. in some cases,but we must be aware of the consequenses.

Why was there a need to enhance sockeye to the extent that has been done? Who or what did the damage that this measure was required? What other stocks were impacted at the same time? What stocks are now at risk because of the Sockeye enhancement? How long can we continue to harvest stocks indiscriminitly? How long can we harvest species at the present rate?

 

[Cuba Libre]

Not this again!!!! Might I suggest that you do some research of your own first before you get some unsuspecting smuck answering your troll ( that has been worked to death on this and many other forums) .

First step is to dig up the Cohen Report....that will keep you busy for a month or two.......

 

[Cuba Libre]

Aw gee -- maybe I was a little harsh. tell you what-- why not figure out the answer the age old question "What is the Meaning of Life?? " and when you have that nailed down we will talk about hatcheries. Sounds OK to me!! LOL

 

[Bear]

I have done years of research and this is what is apparent. If some of you younger anglers don't get involved,we wont have any native fish. I have walked backwards further than most have walked forward. Get involved.Reading reports dosn't solve problems and that should be obvious.

This is not a troll but a hope that some of the younger anglers will not continue to think that hatcheries are the answer. Hatcheries are the biggest detriment to our fishery. If you have the "information" just answer the questions.

The simple answer is the present harvest rate of stocks can not continue. Until the Sports,Commercial and other Stakeholders get to-gether and do something about it we are not going to have a fishery. So if you wish to continue your little hissy fit, have at it.

I remember my father telling me"best keep your mouth shut and nobody will know how stupid you are".

 

[reelfast]

study after study after study by researchers and published in refereed journals of note ALL conclude that plugging drainages with hatchery smolt virtually eliminates naturally spawning fishes. that means the gene pool which has survived from time immemorial, is being lost forever, and that's really a long time. great set of discussion on Ifish.net span at least the last 2 years. with the Native Fish Society recently winning a federal court case involving ODFW, NMFS and NOAA and their joint violation of the ESA on the Sandy r. in OR, its time to pay real attention to hatchery reform. its also time to fully recognize the one and only reason that hatcheries exist in the first place is the sea food industry. they were put in place for that purpose in the 1890s on the Columbia and continue to serve that function today. rec angling is hardly a concern for hatchery managers as their one and only bottom line is numbers. close the hatchery system and watch the commercial fleets collapse, virtually overnight.

 

[searun]

We'll the Washington State Department of Fisheries has a real mess in their hands. Total screw up. All because of hatcheries. The Okanagan a River has so many steelhead in it that the new angling regulation had to be changed forcing anglers to kill every single hatchery fish landed. Total screw up.

Not like here in BC where we have the Ministry of Do Nothing on the job. Yup we got a vision. Manage those rotten anglers. Regulate the crap out of them so we can protect our steelhead from those nasty anglers. Yup looks to me like the policy is working reel good. Just look on most rivers in BC and you will see the evidence. Look around this river bend and you see ......no angler here....look around the next bend......no angler there. I say the vision is working pretty well based on the objective evidence. No anglers harassing those precious fish.

Save a steelhead, regulate an angler. Yaaaahhooooo

 

[Cuba Libre]

So if you wish to continue your little hissy fit, have at it.

Hissyfit-- naw. Just tired of the same old stuff and people that will not do their own research . Our minimal hatchery programs are incredibly valuable in Canada. Ever wonder why Cultus lake sockeye and Sakinaw sockeye, Cowie chinook and Puntledge summer run chins among others, were rescued by hatchery intervention. No??? Well. I will tell you. Once a population reaches a critical low level you can try your damndest to rebuild with habitat improvements, but all you will do is to make habitat for ghosts! And just ask the guys that fish the west coast of the Island what the fishing would be without American passing fish. This has been beaten to death. -- Sure---- go check out iFish but you will find that the guys down there are really pissed at some of the efforts to replace hatchery fish with "nates". Its not just the commericial fisheries that will collapse-- its the Or/Wa sportfishery as well. The DriftFishers have it right.... Not necessarily hatcheries, but hatcheries where necessary

BTW-- do some digging. There are studies on the genetics of a number of long term CANADIAN hatchery programs that show minimal long term effects.

ALSO BTW- With Reelfasts reference to Ifish discussions on hatchery vs wild check this out. http://ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=598433

 

[Lipripper]

I would count Demamiel creek as a total failure too...

 

[Charter Tofino]

God bless American hatches for keeping our WCVI fishery bumping.

 

[Bear]

So its don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up. Wake up. Hatcheries are not the answer to long term stability to our fishery. They are a short term bandaid that will and is continuing to fail.

Rivers had numbers that were established over eons of time. Puting massive numbers of fry,smolts etc into a system has an effect we are just now learning about.

Don't worry about fish farms, our wild fishery is already in total disaray and DFO can't see a way out. So fill the dead space with farmed clones.

As long as I can catch a fish I won't worry about to-morrow is a **** poor attitude.

 

[Rum Buddies]

you guys are missing the point. yes hatcheries work to replace dying runs but they don't work to rescue native runs of fish. Once you start full blown hatchery production on the river you essential turn it into a salmon ranching project, if you turn of the hatchery production there will be nothing left - 10,000's of years of evolution specific to that river have been washed away.

the science is in, hatcheries do f*ck up the gentics of the wild fish, youv'e taken the most powerful force of nature (natural selection) out of the equation. There is no such thing as a biological free lunch. Its a band-aid fix but we're greedy and we want fish to catch.

 

[Lipripper]

I'm out........

 

[finaddict]

So its don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up. Wake up. Hatcheries are not the answer to long term stability to our fishery.

Christ man we ALL know that. Nobody WANTS to have our fisheries supported by hatcheries. In your Utopia, we would all have countless supplies of strong healthy wild "Uber-salmonid" with super strength. But then of course all of society would have to stop sucking all the water out of the rivers for farming, ranching, and the never-ending expansion of sub-urban housing, industry and immigration. All commercial fisheries would have to be halted on all salmon and prey species, and we would all have to reduce our energy use to the point of starvation and hypothermia. Oh wait, I have an idea, let's Close all of our immigration borders, stop all human reproduction and declare anarchy and then we can have a survival of the fittest until we eliminate 90% of the people and get our environmental consumption requirements back to a sustainable level. Most everyone here knows that there are other ways to promote healthy stocks of wild fish and we would love to eliminate all of the other factors that destroy fish and their habitat. Unfortunately the rest of society that doesn't give a damn about fish will not let us do what need to be done. Since it is still a democracy that we live, unfortunately majority rules. Otherwise anyone of us could solve this dilemma. Perhaps the one who needs a nudge back into reality is you

They are a short term bandaid that will and is continuing to fail.]As long as I can catch a fish I won't worry about to-morrow is a **** poor attitude.

There isn't an angler here who does not want to find better ways to improve our wild fisheries. But I can guarantee you that jumping into this forum and attacking the very proponents for conservation and habitat improvement is going to solve nothing. You just come across as a bitter old man who thinks he knows more than everyone else. Quite honestly, the ****-poor attitude is yours and yours alone.

 

[hambone]

...... X2, well said

 

[Lipripper]

X3... (sorry for not being out like I said. I do not have the time to go all Charlie up in here)

Hatcheries are not the solution, pretty sure we all agree. But.....The youngins rely on their dead parents....

 

[reelfast]

keep your eyes on what is happening in Oregon. the NFS is on a roll and they have their first federal court win under their belts. hatchery reform is going to take on a new meaning once they sit down with the ODFW and hammer out what they believe needs to happen.

annually, 200,000,000 smolts are released into the Columbia with a single purpose in mind, prop up the sea food industry. so not to fret, hatcheries are here forever as the commercial sector is not going to roll over on this. but in the meantime, the genetics which have survived disasters we can not imagine are being washed away never to return. mankind at its worst.

 

[Bear]

Where was there an attack on proponents of conservation and/or habitat improvment? It was hoped to be a wake up call to those that have been fed a line of BS by the DFO and hatchery employees.

 

[Cuba Libre]

So-- tell me. What is your solution to dams, run of the river facilities that will munch fish, power generators that have water licenses to remove 50% of the water from the river to make power or grow cows so that we can **** all over hatchery fish on the internet? And while you are at it.. perhaps you would care to comment on this article http://www.courierislander.com/uniq...-s-big-chinook-salmon-run-with-video-1.790609 about a TERRIBLE DFO hatchery (just ignore the fact that power generation in the past severely harmed this race of big chinooks... and the hatchery was virtually solely responsible for rescuing it.. and while you are at it do some research about the pink salmon donor program that has enhanced not only fishing opportunities , but also nutrient levels in our coastal streams. Ya-- rotten hatcheries!!!

 

[reelfast]

Ya-- rotten hatcheries!!!

totally depends on your outlook and what your conservation objectives happen to be. hydro has indeed had a serious and hugely negative impact on fish all over the PNW, no argument. Grand Coulee eliminated the run of 'hogs' that were Canada bound to spawn and continue their line with their progeny, lost DNA never to be recovered. the 2 dams on the Elwha eliminated another run of 'hogs'. this will be interesting to watch, however, as the dams will be totally gone by this summer. Chinook were already observed spawning just below the upper dam this past fall so with another 40 or so miles of pristine waters above this spot, who knows.

habitat degradation is a problem we will never be able to solve or reverse. that said, how do you think the salmon survived the ice age when where we are both sitting was under about 1,500' of solid ice?? but they did. their DNA is a mystery to all and something we will more than likely NEVER understand, so what. what has changed for these returning fish is the intense competition they receive from the hatchery. that is a factor that was not there during the ice age. can they survive with this hatchery variable thrown in their faces?? quality research says NO.

so what is your objective? trying to help continually failing runs of naturally spawning fishes or a bigger bag limit for everyone harvesting hatchery returns. certainly you understand that there is not a single case of a hatchery restoring lost runs, you do know that right? the hatchery system was put in place in the 1890s on the Columbia to prop up the commercial fishing. what they found was <1% return rates. that continues today in spite of the investment of billions of dollars.

will hatcheries go away? not likely as the total agenda of ALL F&W departments is controlled by the sea food industry. this is not a science based set of government entities, they are all responding to political pressures and as such, any 'wild' fish are doomed unless folks intercede, the NFS law suite as an example.

the pink runs have expanded simply as a result of how they spawn. low river spawners, coming out of the gravel triggers an immediate response to head to the salt. the quality of the water in the drainage of choice is of not much concern to the pinks. the estuaries are more critical to their survival. down this way, no hatcheries for pinks, but they are spawning and spreading throughout Puget sound pollution and down the coast and into Oregon, amazing.

so, yes, hydro has totally screwed our fishes but dam removal is a rare event in todays world. agriculture is another factor as well as all sorts of polluting industries. however, the one thing that can be controlled is how the hatcheries operate. giving wild fish a chance is what reform is all about and something all of us should be applauding. it would be a real tragedy for our generation to simply turn our backs and watch the last wild salmon die.

 

[Dave S]

totally depends on your outlook and what your conservation objectives happen to be. hydro has indeed had a serious and hugely negative impact on fish all over the PNW, no argument. Grand Coulee eliminated the run of 'hogs' that were Canada bound to spawn and continue their line with their progeny, lost DNA never to be recovered. the 2 dams on the Elwha eliminated another run of 'hogs'. this will be interesting to watch, however, as the dams will be totally gone by this summer. Chinook were already observed spawning just below the upper dam this past fall so with another 40 or so miles of pristine waters above this spot, who knows.

habitat degradation is a problem we will never be able to solve or reverse. that said, how do you think the salmon survived the ice age when where we are both sitting was under about 1,500' of solid ice?? but they did. their DNA is a mystery to all and something we will more than likely NEVER understand, so what. what has changed for these returning fish is the intense competition they receive from the hatchery. that is a factor that was not there during the ice age. can they survive with this hatchery variable thrown in their faces?? quality research says NO.

so what is your objective? trying to help continually failing runs of naturally spawning fishes or a bigger bag limit for everyone harvesting hatchery returns. certainly you understand that there is not a single case of a hatchery restoring lost runs, you do know that right? the hatchery system was put in place in the 1890s on the Columbia to prop up the commercial fishing. what they found was <1% return rates. that continues today in spite of the investment of billions of dollars.

will hatcheries go away? not likely as the total agenda of ALL F&W departments is controlled by the sea food industry. this is not a science based set of government entities, they are all responding to political pressures and as such, any 'wild' fish are doomed unless folks intercede, the NFS law suite as an example.

the pink runs have expanded simply as a result of how they spawn. low river spawners, coming out of the gravel triggers an immediate response to head to the salt. the quality of the water in the drainage of choice is of not much concern to the pinks. the estuaries are more critical to their survival. down this way, no hatcheries for pinks, but they are spawning and spreading throughout Puget sound pollution and down the coast and into Oregon, amazing.

so, yes, hydro has totally screwed our fishes but dam removal is a rare event in todays world. agriculture is another factor as well as all sorts of polluting industries. however, the one thing that can be controlled is how the hatcheries operate. giving wild fish a chance is what reform is all about and something all of us should be applauding. it would be a real tragedy for our generation to simply turn our backs and watch the last wild salmon die.

maybe it's time you sold your boat and put away your fishing gear. That next fish you keep could be a wild with the last genes of its ancestors.

Hatchery fish aren't some genetically modified species. They should be able to live and spawn alongside the "wild" salmon just like it was in the past. So many other variables playing into the loss of wild salmon. Can't just point the finger at hatcheries.