Going To Dark Side

[Saxe Point]

Here is a direct link to the actual designer.

http://www.specmar.com/



The site posted is a guy that does cutting of the kit's. He has built a few Specmar hull's as well. He must have an arrangement with Specmar because the prices are the same. Seems like good pricing for the "flat pack" (cut pieces). I have an idea what freight is but don't know the logistics with duty etc. to get the kit across the border. Good information regardless. More research....

This is really interesting. I'm looking at building a Tolman skiff out of plywood and epoxy, but these pre-cut kits look really nice. But I've never welded anything before. Is it difficult to learn to do it well enough to weld one of these together? Has anyone built one of these and can share some info about difficulty and time involved?

I might be completely wrong about this, but in some ways welding one of these seems like it might be easier than building a plywood/epoxy boat. The ply/epoxy boat kits don't come with everything pre-cut. You still have to cut a lot of wood yourself, which can be challenging. Then working with epoxy and fibreglass has its own difficulties: you've got to watch temperature so building outside under a shelter can be tough. Epoxy is toxic and can be tough to mix correctly. There's a ton of sanding to do. Then painting. And you're basically using epoxy to weld the wood together with fillets, so it's a lot of work. You've got to basically coat the whole boat in fibreglass and epoxy and then paint.

If the alumimum kit is computer cut, it seems like you've just got to clamp the parts together and weld them. No epoxy, little to no sanding (I'm guessing), no paint. And what I've always liked about alumimum is the durability and basically no maintenance.

But is welding tough to learn and tough to do? I'm patient and I'd take my time.

Although totally self taught and strictly an amateur, I've learned enough carpentry to build a ply/epoxy stitch and glue boat. You don't need great skills, because epoxy is gap filling. Time and patience are key. Not trying to make money, just get a boat built.

Sculpin, I seem to recall your a professional welder. What do you think?

 

[finaddict]

I also don't know a thing about welding, but I do know this. Learning how to weld is easy. Learning how to weld WELL is several years of practice. Learning how to weld aluminum well is even more difficult.

 

[abbyfireguy]

It's an art form.

 

[Sculpin]

Welding aluminum isn't as hard as it used to be with the new pulse machines using a push pull gun (expensive though). Most guys building back yard or garage alloys are using a 200-250 amp machine with a Miller spool gun (cheapest set up). Finaddict is right that welding isn't that hard. It can be for some folks though. I relate it to playing the guitar....some folks just have it.....and others don't lol. I have one guy here that picked it up just like that and was a good welder right from the start. We used to have a guy here that was an unreal welder but it took him 6 years to get there.

Working with aluminum is very much like working with wood. You are using all the same carbide bladed tools etc. When they built the fast cats, they hired carpenters because they were used to working with these tools and they tend to have cleaner working habits than old school mild steel welders. Small kit boats seem pretty straight forward in assembly but the larger ones posted are quite involved with pulling the hull plates into place. You also need a large work area and ideally some lifting equipment to flip the hull over. We're thinking of putting a couple of 16' open tiller boats together in the next couple of months. Just testing the waters so to speak . Besides they will be way funner to build than beams and columns .

The CNC router cut kits are the way to go. Minimal heat to the cut edge, clean machined finish on the cut edge, and super tight tolerances. Most of the pieces are marked or etched and it really is like a mechano set. There are quite a few tricks and procedures for putting them together to end up with a true and straight hull without the hungry horse look. Stephen Pollard (Specmar) has written a couple of books on boat building with aluminum. Well worth the read.

http://www.specmar.com/resources/boat-building-with-aluminum

 

[SpringVelocity]

CNC router....mmmmmmm...

 

[Saxe Point]

Welding aluminum isn't as hard as it used to be with the new pulse machines using a push pull gun (expensive though). Most guys building back yard or garage alloys are using a 200-250 amp machine with a Miller spool gun (cheapest set up). Finaddict is right that welding isn't that hard. It can be for some folks though. I relate it to playing the guitar....some folks just have it.....and others don't lol. I have one guy here that picked it up just like that and was a good welder right from the start. We used to have a guy here that was an unreal welder but it took him 6 years to get there.

Working with aluminum is very much like working with wood. You are using all the same carbide bladed tools etc. When they built the fast cats, they hired carpenters because they were used to working with these tools and they tend to have cleaner working habits than old school mild steel welders. Small kit boats seem pretty straight forward in assembly but the larger ones posted are quite involved with pulling the hull plates into place. You also need a large work area and ideally some lifting equipment to flip the hull over. We're thinking of putting a couple of 16' open tiller boats together in the next couple of months. Just testing the waters so to speak . Besides they will be way funner to build than beams and columns .

The CNC router cut kits are the way to go. Minimal heat to the cut edge, clean machined finish on the cut edge, and super tight tolerances. Most of the pieces are marked or etched and it really is like a mechano set. There are quite a few tricks and procedures for putting them together to end up with a true and straight hull without the hungry horse look. Stephen Pollard (Specmar) has written a couple of books on boat building with aluminum. Well worth the read.

http://www.specmar.com/resources/boat-building-with-aluminum

Thanks, that's encouraging I think.

By "good" welding, I assume you are referring to solid and good looking welds. Are they mutually exclusive? I'm not concerned about learning to make good looking welds, I would just want them to be solid. The appearance means nothing to me, as long as the boat is welded a strong as it can be. So I guess I'm wondering if the tougher part in learning welding is to make beautiful welds or just strong ones? Or maybe good strong welds will always look good?

I'm going to do some more reading as this sounds like a viable option to plywood and epoxy, especially if you buy a pre-cut kit. Sounds like assembly would be relatively straightforward and the key would be securing and clamping to ensure straight and level. Then strong welds. Then she's done! No epoxy, sanding, primer, paint etc.

 

[Sculpin]

You seem to be going about it the right way. In my books a good weld is a solid one with proper root penetration, side wall fusion, and proper cap profile. The appearance of a good weld should look good if you put the filler material in there properly. Now you hear some folks talk about "pretty" welds. If the welder is good he can have both solid and pretty welds but I have seen inexperienced guys worry too much about the weld looking pretty. When you test their coupon they have very little root penetration and the weld fails miserably. The welds on my boat are not "pretty" but they are solid.

Anyways there is lots of information on line about welding for the back yard or do it yourself folks. When practicing do some destructive testing and look at your welds or have an experienced welder look at them for you. There is lots on testing online as well. Once you know what your looking for it helps you gain confidence in producing a solid weld or good weld.

 

[Gypseas]

Here is your chance to own my boats one and only sister-ship.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1991- ... rol-643050

 

[SpringVelocity]

Adrian I am thinking about it... Just timing...

 

[Sculpin]

I wouldn't think too long. At that price it will go fast. Smokin deal if the hull has no corrosion.

 

[Gunsmith]

When welding aluminum "cleanliness is next to Godliness". Good joint fits are the next step. Gaps that are big cause distortion.

 

[Sculpin]

When welding aluminum "cleanliness is next to Godliness". Good joint fits are the next step. Gaps that are big cause distortion.

I agree completely. We are going to try acid etching the parts to get the mill scale off of the aluminum. There is quite a bit of talk about this process on the AAB forum from Alaskan builders and I know one company down in Washington (Pacific Skiffs) that does this as well. This way you are getting the cleanest material to start with before welding commences.

As for fit up, that is one of the great benefits of the kit boats. We are talking tolerances within 1/32" . This allows for perfect fit up which helps so much for getting a good weld like you mentioned.

 

[Saxe Point]

After doing some reading, I note that there is a lively debate about MIG versus TIG welding for aluminum. Some say MIG is not ideal, but is faster and easier to learn. Others say TIG is the only way to go, although it is very slow, apparently and much harder to learn. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Sculpin]

I would say mig is ideal and the majority of boat builders use this process (especially with the pulse systems). Tig is WAY slower and puts heat into the weld differently than mig welding. Tig welding is much harder to learn but you can get the best welds using this process once proficient at it. Most builders use tig for handrails and other accessories but rarely use it on the main hull or cabin.

We have a Lincoln 350 MP with the new Miller push pull gun on it. It is a finicky machine but once you get it dialed in you can almost produce tig quality welds using the mig process with pulse on pulse. We are just starting to get into the software modifications that the machine is capable of. You can customize programs to suit your needs or download other existing weld programs into the machine. This set up runs around 8 grand.

We have two high frequency AC machines for doing aluminum tig work. One is fixed and the new one is portable and can actually be taken into the field if a proper power source is available.

You can get into a good used set up for pretty cheap. PM Finished Business as he bought an economical aluminum welding set up used a couple of years ago. You need a 200 amp welding source, possibly a process/adapter box, and a Miller 1 lb. spool gun. I buy used welding equipment from Redi Arc. You can talk to Wade here in Nanaimo 250-754-8460 and he will steer you in the right direction or answer questions etc. You should be able to get into a good used set up for around $1500.

 

[Fishtank]

I'm doing my first year fabrication at a custom aluminum shop almost all the welding we do is tig hardly ever mig unless tacking something you can't see.yes its slower but the finished product is much nicer

 

[Saxe Point]

I'm doing my first year fabrication at a custom aluminum shop almost all the welding we do is tig hardly ever mig unless tacking something you can't see.yes its slower but the finished product is much nicer

Is tig a lot harder to learn for someone who never welded anything before? I'm trying to get a sense as to how difficult it is for someone to learn who has never welded anything before. Don't need to become a pro, just good enough to weld together one of those pre-cut kits. My time is cheap., actually it's free.

 

[Califbill]

For boat hull welding, push-pull gun. TIG would take forever. Around here the junior college has a welding course. As stated you need a 200 amp minimum machine. I would go with a miller 350 or equivalent. I have a Lincoln 180C with spool gun. Does very nice welds, but would not do for 3/16 or 1/4" thick sheets. You would have to heat with a torch first. For my welding it works great, but most of my welding is art projects and some stuff for the boat. 1/8" or so sheet.

 

[Fishtank]

Is tig a lot harder to learn for someone who never welded anything before? I'm trying to get a sense as to how difficult it is for someone to learn who has never welded anything before. Don't need to become a pro, just good enough to weld together one of those pre-cut kits. My time is cheap., actually it's free.

I never welded before and i found it easy to pick up, took a few trys to get the hang of it, might help to have someone around to give u some tips at first

 

[Sr SQ]

One other consideration for the home user is the power requirements for the different machines.
The old style transformer machines like my 250 syncrowave requires a 100 amps, not all homes have this type available power.

 

[Califbill]

I never welded before and i found it easy to pick up, took a few trys to get the hang of it, might help to have someone around to give u some tips at first

TIG steel is not hard. If you can blaze, you can TIG steel. Aluminum is far harder to do. I can TIG steel and stainless, but have never done a completely nice TIG weld project.