Commercial Viewpoint on Halibut

[spring time]

wolf you said that;"Also you want to bring up facts its a know fact that sportfishing creates over 300,000 jobs coastwide with WAY more money brought into local communities to support local people with jobs commercial ahhhh cant even come close, i think the number I heard was roughly 130 boats fished last years commercial times that by 4 or 5 guys..." how can that number be true 300 000 is that spin off jobs or what. you guides lets see some numbers from your log books how many springs did your boat catch last year, you guys are a sector of the commercial fleet. you are making money (apparently not muck like farmers lmao) just like a commercial boat. Yes every commercial halibut boat has a camera on it like a black cod boat I don't know about fn boats.

 

[profisher]

Springtime, no one including DFO argues the fact that the recreational sector brings more to the table for the BC economy, over the commercial fishery. Government has commissioned studies to verify it. My DFO log book is now in their hands along with all the DNA samples I took all season. I filled 100 tubes with Chinook DNA so I know it was slightly more than that number as I went a few weeks without additional sampling vials.
I don't mind telling you my yearly gross, I've nothing to hide. The bulk of my business is the 4 months of summer as I have another business and don't have to rely on fishing year round any more. I do stay open year round and fish occasionally during the winter. I've been in the charter business for 25 years this season. Gross sales for 2010 is $50,000 which is about $10,000 off a pre-recession normal year. All time high was about $72,000. Lets say I took 125 springs for the summer, that works out to $400 per fish. But really big deal, you are right it is about the income and paying the bills. However if I could have won the "VI Salmon Classic" this year and donated my portion ($25,000) back to local salmon projects ....that would have felt like a big deal!!

 

[profisher]

By the way if anyone is to be truthfully compared to farmers it is a commercial fisherman. Government subsidies, reduced moorage, tax breaks, exemptions from fees etc etc. Us guides can only wish.

 

[Derby]

I agree hat the sport fishery contributes more to the BC economy than the commercial fishery does hands down. But as individuals (which is just as important)....who is contributing more by way of tax dollars going into general revenue? General revenue is presently the only mechanism by which some government monies make their way back to all salmon rehab projects. The money collected by hotels, guides, gas stations etc doesn't end up in the bank accounts of societies working on fish projects. Would you say that the average sport fisher gives more to the cause than say Jimmy Patterson does? I would bet a good real estate agent in Victoria contributes more to general revenue and there for more to fish than I do. (if I didn't voluntarily donate my own money or time) Helping the economy is one thing, helping rebuild fish stocks is another. More work needed on the latter!!!

Helping the economy is one thing, helping rebuild fish stocks is another. More work needed on the latter!!![/QUOTE]



Are you talking salmon ? or Halibut here?

 

[scott craven]

This thread seems to be side tracked, the issue on hand is Halibut and the commercial fishery for this species

 

[Cuba Libre]

Agreed-- lets not start the internal (infernal) bickering that destroyed at least one hali thread here last year

 

[Ding Dong!]

Misinformation can travel a long way before the truth is found. Get informed people! Read a little, Google is a great place to start as they list many helpful resources, studies and legal info. http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/member.php?4942-Ding-Dong! Check my visitor message section in my profile on this site for some great info relating to all sides and more. I will update it often!

Ding Dong!

 

[fisher69]

By the way if anyone is to be truthfully compared to farmers it is a commercial fisherman. Government subsidies, reduced moorage, tax breaks, exemptions from fees etc etc. Us guides can only wish.

so how much did you have to pay for the halibut(or salmon) you and your guests harvest that you have built your business around, and how much are your fees to access that each year? oh yeah ZERO.... I would think the true FREE ride is the lodge and charter sector that is and has been using close to 80%(came from the province rep)of the recreational halibut harvest to run their businesses.
it's about time we put the lodges and charters in the commercial side of the equation. Then there would be more than enough fish to increase our limits for the average rec angler.

 

[profisher]

I agree, our fish should come out the commercial quota in what ever format. I'm also in favour of a license for the right to guide on tidal waters. I have been for a long time, a few others are too. DFO should also start a process of evaluating the impact that guide/lodges have in certain terminal area/fisheries and looking ahead to possible restrictions on numbers to prevent harming stocks. Still doesn't alter my opinion that commercial fishermen get to many breaks at tax payers expense.

 

[wolf]

GEEE id love that fish for 2 months then collect EI for the rest... where do I sign up????? please tell me
ALL the money ive put out to be a "legal" guide and coply with all the BS isnt enough cmon man now your going to tell me a mechanic or doctor will have to pay a fee to make a living too.....you just dont get it do you....


this thing needs to be locked as its not even what it started out to be... im quilty as well

 

[IronNoggin]

so how much did you have to pay for the halibut(or salmon) you and your guests harvest that you have built your business around, and how much are your fees to access that each year? oh yeah ZERO.... I would think the true FREE ride is the lodge and charter sector that is and has been using close to 80%(came from the province rep)of the recreational halibut harvest to run their businesses.
it's about time we put the lodges and charters in the commercial side of the equation. Then there would be more than enough fish to increase our limits for the average rec angler.

Give your head a firm shake!

True that the lodges and the independent guides facilitate a large portion of the recreational catch. Not surprising, this is exactly what they do. And btw "facilitate" is absolutely the correct word. As I have noted previously, they do not take sport caught halibut themselves, rather facilitate and accommodate anglers so that these anglers can harvest their own fish. Given the expenses related to owning and operating a safe, reliable sea-worthy craft, and the years of experience it takes to ensure the wander out there is a SAFE one, it isn't tough to understand why a great many choose to go with the professionals.

And while the sheer numbers may look like a "commercial operation" to you, let's face it, it is the Anglers who take the fish home at the end of the day. Any way you slice it, they are very much a part of the Recreational Sector on our waters.

Another point for you to consider: Who exactly stands up for and fights the hardest for the "average angler"? Certainly isn't the average Joe content to whine away on an internet Forum. It very much is the guides and lodge representatives that take the time and make themselves available time and time and time again. Wish even a quarter of the "average anglers" were so determined...

Nog

 

[wolf]

BECAUSE WE MAKE MONEY FROM OTHERS!!!!AND USE THE RESOURSES AROUND US!!!!!!
Funny how you dont get on a loggers case ???? and he does major damage to everything (sorry to any loggers reading this)r a salmon farmer or a doctor you tax $$$$$$$ pay for everything but if you want a surgery done right away ok that fine thats $20.000.

AND to boot we fight for the same common ground do you think a fishfarmer would help you protest for the right to fish ????? Us guides and lodges do we need to work togther guys plain and simple!!!!!!

OH wait gets better

GOVERNMENT: so you want to be a guide ok you need to get this...a MED3,a svop course, a marine first aid course, a radio course and your boat needs a stability test, AND a whack of safety gear and anything else we decide later ok... after that we will send you a sticker in 3 months ok...

GUIDE: sounds great sign me up.OK I got everything 5 grand later and a lot of time off to do it alll whew thank god im done

GOVERNMENT: OK GOOD job but sorry to inform you and its short notice (3 days) but we are closing salmon down on you now for 3 weeks now call all your clients and cancel again really sorry......

GUIDE:"WTF" are you kidding me??????

GOVERNMENT: OH yeah havent told you yet but coastwide for 2011 we dont know what we are going to do regarding halibut and salmon so dont book anything till I tell you ......Is that ok for you???????

IF anyone on here thinks this is fair then you need your head examined!!!!!!!!

Whatever your job is lets start but putting restrictions on how you can make money for your family ok and see how you like it??/me being a betting man YOU wouldnt like it at all either.....


FOR the last time we are not commercial fisherman we accomadate people for them to go fishing just like you im a sportfisherman, and do it because I LOVE it and meeting new people. Sushi said it right, way back if you want to make a million at this start with 2 million...


A pissed of wolf!!!!!!

 

[fisher69]

for those that seem to think that guides and lodges are commercial fishermen, id really like to know why you think that???holmes*

exactly as wolf said "you are using a resource to make a living". That makes it commercial. Also one of the guides on here has stated that 70% of his clients are not canadian, so how does that benifit all canadians?

Wolf you should be pissed. The instability that is associated with being a guide would give any business man heartburn. I know some of the younger guides are in favor of having access to a secure piece of the pie so they can put together a decent business plan. I personally would be in favor of having a "quota" or whatever you want to call it. It promotes accountability, provides security and again lets people decide when and how to run their business. It boggles me as to why the SFAB and SFI are so against this.

 

[Charlie]

There was a study done in 2006 concerning the IPHC and in particular Canada’s allocation process of halibut… which, flat-out stated, it isn’t working and Canada’s “day of reckoning” will soon come. Well, four years later, I guess that day has come?

How about this? “The halibut sport fishery was relatively small before 1973. The Commission did not consider it a significant concern in the management of the fishery. In 1973, after consulting Canadian and state governments, the IPHC adopted sport regulations.” So, you can thank Canada for even including the “sport” sector in the IPHC figures.

That 80%? Well, according to the commercial sector that is actually, “The sector argues that the lodge and charter businesses account for some two-thirds of the halibut harvested.” I guess that is close to 80%, but you can use 90%, if you like – the real number is NOT known… as this was also stated, “Sport harvests along the British Columbia coast of Area 2B are estimated by a variety of means, none of which is completely satisfactory. As interest in halibut sport fishing increases in B.C. waters, the importance of a scientifically-based catch estimate intensifies. Right now, one of the estimates used by the IPHC is the 1.5 million-pound catch figure, which is based on DFO’s National Postal survey of sport harvests for 1995.” Kind of indicates DFO uses the information obtained from creel surveys, guide logbooks, and that every “FIVE YEAR” mail survey to base its “Sport” numbers and harvest allocations for halibut? Yep, those numbers just might NOT give a true and accurate picture and would tend to lead one in the wrong direction? In short … those numbers would have to indicate guides
"CLIENTS" catch more halibut… as THE GUIDES ARE THE ONLY ONES REPORTING THEIR "CLIENTS" CATCH!

“At that time halibut was incidental to salmon fishing for recreational fishers. Since that time the popularity of halibut fishing has increased substantially. As is discussed below the measurement of it is comparatively difficult and, to date, inexact. Nonetheless it is clear that sport fishing of halibut has increased dramatically.”

Is a guide or lodge a commercial enterprise… You bet they are! Are they part of any commercial or sport fishery” – NOPE! Only part of the “sport” fishery, when they are actually fishing! They do just provide a service, and that was also recognized in the report, “The Board is technically correct in making this point. But the anglers who fish without using lodges or fish charter businesses make up some 33 per cent of the recreational halibut fishery. In any future discussion with stakeholders it would be useful to attempt to include this group.”

You do know, “The commercial halibut sector’s proposal is that 95 per cent be allocated to the commercial sector and 5 per cent to the recreational sector.”

http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/xnet/content/groundfish/halibut/KelleherAllocationHalibutReport.PDF

If you think the biomass in Area 2B is increasing, you might want to think again? This really isn't or shouldn’t be “harvest rates” of 20 or 30 years ago? It should be looking at the “current” biomass! Yes, the "current" 2B halibut biomass has shown a slight improvement; however, one might want to look at the individual biomass figures published by the IPHC? “TOTAL CEY BIOMASS ESTI?QTES BY AREA,” 2003-2008 all figures in '000s of H&G pounds. Area 2B: Year 2003 - 11.32; 2004 - 15.80; 2005 - 13.10; 2006 - 13.73; 2007 - 6.75; 2008 - 5.12. Pick a year… The difference from 2008 and 2003, 2008 is DOWN from 2003 and equates to 45.23% of the 2003 halibut biomass; 2004 DOWN 32.40%; 2006 DOWN 37.29%, 2007 DOWN 75.85%. That again is, ALL CURRENT YEARS - DOWN! A slight increase for 2009 and 2010 does NOT mean the overall biomass is infact, still declining!


Currently... Area by area quick summary. Area 2A: Concerned; Area 2B: Slowly recovering; Area 2C: Concerned; Area 3A: Continued slow decline; Area 3B: Very concerned; Area 4A: Signs of improvement; Area 4B: Steady improvement; Area 4CDE: Signs of improvement.

Concerning “The International Pacific Halibut Commission (IPHC),” that organization is all about sustaining the halibut biomass - for the Commercial halibut fishery. And, it is - ALL ABOUT COMMERCIAL, and, it is all about the Gulf of ALASKA! That was its original purpose… and it is still its purpose! If you really want to know about Area 2B, download the following PDF, enter 2B in the search window and start reading!
http://www.iphc.washington.edu/presentations/sa09-IM.pdf

 

[Derby]

exactly as wolf said "you are using a resource to make a living". That makes it commercial. Also one of the guides on here has stated that 70% of his clients are not canadian, so how does that benifit all canadians?

Wolf you should be pissed. The instability that is associated with being a guide would give any business man heartburn. I know some of the younger guides are in favor of having access to a secure piece of the pie so they can put together a decent business plan. I personally would be in favor of having a "quota" or whatever you want to call it. It promotes accountability, provides security and again lets people decide when and how to run their business. It boggles me as to why the SFAB and SFI are so against this.

It boggles me as to why the SFAB and SFI are so against this.[/QUOTE]


SFAB/SFI -Have been heavy involved in every process in regards to dealing with the halibut issue- 1000's of man hrs- It's not just like they came to this?

Are you planning to go to one of the Halibut Town hall meeting in the coming weeks?- They're some very good folks that will let you know how we have come to be where we are today. Bring you're questions -that is what theses Town hall meeting are all about.

I ask everyone to show up to the meetings- bring your friends and be engaged -ask questions

This is a DFO problem which we need DFO to fix

 

[spring time]

holmes how much business would you get if you are the worse guide on the planet not much and zero repeat business so on all your guys web sites don't have pictures of your clients with fish tell them about the experience maybe some of the jokes that you will tell while they are out for there "service that you provide", and see how far that gets you. you are selling fish wether you like it or not, you just get your money up front where as a commercial guy has to get fish to get paid. they say that 8o% of the fish are caught by to people jimmy pattterson and the owner of oak bay marine group. I'll bet that there are some guides that catch more fish out of there boat in a year than most commercial trollers do

 

[Derby]

holmes how much business would you get if you are the worse guide on the planet not much and zero repeat business so on all your guys web sites don't have pictures of your clients with fish tell them about the experience maybe some of the jokes that you will tell while they are out for there "service that you provide", and see how far that gets you. you are selling fish wether you like it or not, you just get your money up front where as a commercial guy has to get fish to get paid. they say that 8o% of the fish are caught by to people jimmy pattterson and the owner of oak bay marine group. I'll bet that there are some guides that catch more fish out of there boat in a year than most commercial trollers do

Guy's like or not we are all currently lumped as Sportfishers-Fighting about who takes more of what is not the answer-
Currently we Canadian's get 12% of the catchable Halibut quota- The Commercial sector gets 88%-DFO has made this the problem thru the division of the allocation.As a Canadian this just doesn''t sit right to me?

Sportfisherman,guides,lodge we are one group. Taking shots and pointing fingers on who takes what & where doesn't change anything but divide the group.Probley just what DFO wants another groups that fights amoung its self.


As I personal see it we should all have equal access to these fish- all fish-commercial fisheries,sporties,guides & lodges is it not everyones right?
At this point I have not seen anyone asking or tell the Commercial industry to give up there quota for free?- We are just asking and tellling DFO we want equal access- Is this not fairfair?
-DFO must give us equal access- Let the Commercial fisherman deal with DFO on what is fair for compensation on quota given up.-DFO made this deal.
Hell I'm more than willing to sit down with the commercial industry and work with on what is fair- But we all have to have fair access to Halibut-
This is just the first battle- If we don't win this halibut quota battle for equal access -Prawns and crabs are next- Just think- You might just be limited to 200 prawns per year or 12 crab per year? So DFO can give it away to Commercial interest . This is right to access

Just my two bits

 

[wolf]

I'll bet that there are some guides that catch more fish out of there boat in a year than most commercial trollers do

ARE you fricken kidding me??? holy cow you can not be serious !!!!! we only go fishing for about 5 to 8 hours a day with maybe 3 to 4 lines down a commercial halibut does about 500 hooks to a "skate" and usually does 4 to 8 "skates so thats close to 2000 or 4000 hooks down for min 18 HOURS sometimes longer and you think we catch more fish..........
jesus they left almost as mcuh as we took last year DO you even consider that???? rememeber 88/12 split duuuuuhhhh

And if your going to deem me commercial great cause then I can seel my fish to anyone... right on then I will make some serious money cause when you get 100 lbs of fish at 650 to 8 bucks a Lb id make more money doing that and I get to reel in the fish and trust me id be out every fricken day because then I woundnt have to worry about booking SPORTFISHERMAN and the hassle of teaching people!!!! I could be out rapeing it then you would BIATCH even more

Wolf

 

[Ding Dong!]

I found the following paper to be an interesting read. "DFO RESPONSE TO PACIFIC HALIBUT" - 2006

I found the following paragraph to be quite conserning and enlightning; I wonder if there is some way for sportfisherman to become more accountable, only from the perspective of at least knowing or having a clearer in season snapshot of sport usage.

This is found in the above pdf file.

The fishery is cost-shared between government and industry. The industry currently funds DFO fisheries management staff salaries, DFO fisheries management staff overtime, DFO fisheries management staff travel, DFO computer programming, and departmental equipment purchases ($108,000). The industry contracts with third party service providers for a dockside monitoring program (100% of landings) and an at-sea monitoring program (100% of sea days). The industry also funds various rockfish science initiatives ($485,000 in 2006). Halibut vessel owners also pay another $1.3 million in licence application fees to DFO for the privilege of accessing the halibut resource.
The hook & line fishery for halibut is now managed on a multi-species basis. In 2006 a three-year pilot program was implemented in Canada’s Pacific commercial groundfish fisheries, commonly referred to as groundfish integration. Under this pilot program there is 100% at-sea monitoring, 100% dockside monitoring, individual vessel accountability for all catch (both retained and released), individual vessel quotas and reallocation of these quotas between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released). Seven distinct commercial groundfish sector groups; Halibut (L), Sablefish (K), Inside Rockfish (ZNI), Outside Rockfish (ZNO), Lingcod (Schedule II), Dogfish (Schedule II) and Groundfish Trawl (T) are managed as distinct fisheries but are integrated as they must reallocate IVQ between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released).

Ding Dong!

 

[SpringFever552]

if i want to go catch a halibut in september this year and dfo has closed it in aug. or whatever,TOO EFFING BAD, im fishing anyway, i'll suffer the consequences if i get caught, if they wont listen then i wont throw me in jail and i will consider myself a political prisoner, IT IS EVERYONES CANADIAN RITE TO FISH AND RETAIN FISH FOR FOOD, im not FN but i am a native of Canada...holmes*

hah what a joke....you can go catch a hali anytime you want ,you just need to release it, but if you "kill it for food" when they are closed to retention, I sure hope you'll be fishing from your own boat, because someone else would also suffer the consequences of your wrong doing and maybe lose their ride/gear....

love to see you when you get hooked up with bubba in the big house...good luck on that...

and if its your rite to retain fish then why don't you kill a few steelies,by the sounds of your thinking you probably have, from the Gold River while your at it