Cuba Libre
Well-Known Member
Awww- Doggie... Tell us what you REALLY think!!! LOL
Circle hook.
- Thread starter Gunsmith
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Englishman
Well-Known Member
Well there's a nice intelligent, well articulated and reasoned argument. From the mass of evidence presented, this must clearly be so.....!
Dogbreath
Well-Known Member
Well that's a rather snarky thing to say here in this oasis of gentility & erudition but I'll let it pass....
Here for your edification are my reasons for not liking circle hooks.
First off as many here know 'live long enough and everything old will become new again'-circle hooks have been around since the earth cooled-see this ancient design from Polynesia-or look at the hooks in my avatar.
So the idea has been around for a while and when commercial fishermen first started to use them on longlines catch rates rocketed-so much so that biologists thought Halibut populations had somehow exploded.
And as mentioned the cam action of the hook when it reaches the corner of the fish's mouth turns the point into the jaw hinge for a solid hookup.
That's not why most modern day sportfishermen use them though and not why FOC has been sniffing around their use for some time now.
No the popularity of these abominations is all about gut hooked fish-allegedly the use of circles reduces C&R mortality-as long as you stand on your head/chew gum/whistle a Lightfoot tune and rub your stomach anti clockwise while the fish is chewing your bait.
And this is where I call Bull-because over the decades I have seen as many gut & gill hooked fish with baited circles as J hooks not just here in BC but in the tropics especially using live bait for Sailfish.
If you know your gear and your target species there's no need to change what you're doing-J hooks work for a reason and work well.
I wonder why none of the circle hook enthusiasts here has noticed that the commercial fleet never uses them on their Salmon trolling gear-why is that?
Of course there's nothing wrong with experimentation but there's flexibility and then there's making things as complicated as possible just because you can.
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Saxe Point
Well-Known Member
I am not sure about anecdotal evidence, but the scientific studies that have been done [that are available on the internet] uniformly demonstrate significantly lower mortality when fish are caught and released with circle hooks instead of J hooks. The solid hook up and holding ability of the circle hook seems logical too. Definitely worth a try.
Drewski Canuck
Active Member
Really Dogbreath?
Sorry to offend you with my personal experiences Dogbreath, but a gut hook fish would mean that the fish had the hook down to his guts, and the hook slid back and caught on the esophogus. Possible, I guess. However, the commercial troll fleet I suspect uses barbed hooks. I know I did not use circle hooks when barbed hooks were allowed. Now that I don't have a choice, it doesn't matter any more, as I have found something that works just as well, and in alot of cases, even better.
Of course, if you are like half the other guys in Nootka who still fish with Barbs, it really doesn't matter, does it?
Drewski
Sorry to offend you with my personal experiences Dogbreath, but a gut hook fish would mean that the fish had the hook down to his guts, and the hook slid back and caught on the esophogus. Possible, I guess. However, the commercial troll fleet I suspect uses barbed hooks. I know I did not use circle hooks when barbed hooks were allowed. Now that I don't have a choice, it doesn't matter any more, as I have found something that works just as well, and in alot of cases, even better.
Of course, if you are like half the other guys in Nootka who still fish with Barbs, it really doesn't matter, does it?
Drewski
Englishman
Well-Known Member
Well Dogbreath the following detailed scientific study, which covers billfish, seems to thoroughly demolish and refute your main argument completely. Take a read! (or just read the conclusion as this is very erudite scientific paper).
http://www.abmt.vi/PrincePDF/P3.pdf
And these guys covered a great deal more species by analysing a lot of other peoples data, but came to the same conclusion.
http://www.news-press.com/assets/pdf/A483941829.PDF
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Seafever
Well-Known Member
Englishman:-
In your posted article ( Prince PDF), on page two it shows the circle hook used (Eagle Claw I.2004-size 7/0). And the other J-hooks they used on bait.
The Eagle Claw to me does not look like a true circle hook...but rather a salmon-hook-***-circle.....
It's only difference is it has the turned-in point it seems.....if you straightened that out it would be a salmon hook pretty much.
Definitely doesn't look like a hard-core circle hook.....
In your posted article ( Prince PDF), on page two it shows the circle hook used (Eagle Claw I.2004-size 7/0). And the other J-hooks they used on bait.
The Eagle Claw to me does not look like a true circle hook...but rather a salmon-hook-***-circle.....
It's only difference is it has the turned-in point it seems.....if you straightened that out it would be a salmon hook pretty much.
Definitely doesn't look like a hard-core circle hook.....
Englishman
Well-Known Member
Seafever,
I think there are many variables in this equation. I'm sure there are other varieties of circle hook which are more "circular", just as there are many varieties of J hook with different shank lengths, point off set, barb size (rankness) etc. The circle hook in the picture definitely has a curved shank, so it is not a J hook with a turned in point. I would expect that if an even more curved hook was used in another experiment, hook-up data would be different, but probably not the throat/deep hook data. I would like to see more experiments like this but there are so many variables and so many aspects to test it could be a long expensive process. I guess that is why fishing is such a complex fascinating art.....!!
I think there are many variables in this equation. I'm sure there are other varieties of circle hook which are more "circular", just as there are many varieties of J hook with different shank lengths, point off set, barb size (rankness) etc. The circle hook in the picture definitely has a curved shank, so it is not a J hook with a turned in point. I would expect that if an even more curved hook was used in another experiment, hook-up data would be different, but probably not the throat/deep hook data. I would like to see more experiments like this but there are so many variables and so many aspects to test it could be a long expensive process. I guess that is why fishing is such a complex fascinating art.....!!
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Ummm.. NO, We Don't. And haven't for well over a decade now.
And btw, I'd NEVER even consider trolling with circle hooks for anything. Period.
Nog
Englishman
Well-Known Member
Again, thanks Dogbreath for your careful analysis of the data in the papers I posted the links to, and for your penetrating and insightful reply. The picture you posted says it all.....
Dogbreath
Well-Known Member
Indeed-the whole phony circle hook debate is a yawner-you sure can tell when it's winter on the forum!
Have to agree with Dogbreath and Nog on this one Englishman. Salmon are not Billfish and Trolling for salmon is not Jigging for Halibut. There is nothing stopping anyone now from using circle hooks for salmon trolling. One has to ask why very few do so, especially given their better holding characteristics. The answer is that they are far less effective at hooking up salmon in the first place and also have no hope in my mind of replacing a treble hook for rigging herring and anchovies in teaser heads and keeping any kind of decent roll on them. One of the fun parts of fishing is experimenting for yourself so give them a try this summer if you like. I think you will find that you may get some strikes but a lot less hookups. When was the last time you saw a guide or a commercial fisherman who have to produce frequently using a TRUE circle hook for trolling salmon.
Englishman
Well-Known Member
Rockfish, as most people on this forum know I don't have a lot of salmon trolling experience (just 35 years of other types of fishing) so I have to acknowledge Dogbreath, Nog and and your far greater skill set in that area. With a "hit and run" type of fish it is difficult to see how the hook ups would work well. And yes getting the anchovy to roll right would be a challenge too. However, this discussion sorta started with halibut and went from there. With fish that sit and nibble/chew/munch at bait, circle hooks should work as described in the literature/articles. (Catfish down South for example?). Nevertheless, the link I posted earlier to the billfish paper comparing hook types is interesting as presumably these are "hit and run" fish taken by trolling too?
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Aces
Well-Known Member
When trolling for Marlin they use J hooks and circle hooks with bait, live or dead
elnino54
Member
Circe Hooks are mandatory for most billfish tournaments these day............"when using bait" ie. Dead Ballyhoo's. They still troll with J-Hooks in some of the large Marlin Lures.
I've used them for Halibut last year, we got an 80, 2-50"s and and a couple 15-20 lbs and every one was hooked in the corner of the mouth. I think they are a great idea.
I've used them for Halibut last year, we got an 80, 2-50"s and and a couple 15-20 lbs and every one was hooked in the corner of the mouth. I think they are a great idea.
Drewski Canuck
Active Member
Anchovie in a Crippled head holder, or Anchovie special with a circle hook works fine. The hook set back is established with the toothpick you jam in the hole that the line runs through, and the roll by the toothpick you push into the back of the Anchovie.
I gave some circle hooks to a guide out of Harrison Cove resort as he had never seen them before. He was a believer on the fact that we were not losing fish, and the hits off of Uculet were'nt coming very often.
I gave some circle hooks to the guide at Westcoast Resorts at Whale Channel. He had no clue but was very interested on seeing the hookups on hootchies we were using.
I have been trolling these things since 1999. I have brought home as many fish as the next guy, and when the crowds are thick and fishing slower, even more so. The difference is that a hook up typically ends up in the net unless there is a breakoff.
Anyways Dogbreath, to each his own. I am happy and won't go back as long as we have to fish barbless, which is likely forever.
Drewski
I gave some circle hooks to a guide out of Harrison Cove resort as he had never seen them before. He was a believer on the fact that we were not losing fish, and the hits off of Uculet were'nt coming very often.
I gave some circle hooks to the guide at Westcoast Resorts at Whale Channel. He had no clue but was very interested on seeing the hookups on hootchies we were using.
I have been trolling these things since 1999. I have brought home as many fish as the next guy, and when the crowds are thick and fishing slower, even more so. The difference is that a hook up typically ends up in the net unless there is a breakoff.
Anyways Dogbreath, to each his own. I am happy and won't go back as long as we have to fish barbless, which is likely forever.
Drewski
