Aquaculture Net Pens are Fish Traps for Wild Small Fish!

[Whole in the Water]

It is the end of August and the release was dated July - Did they sit on this info for 2 months?

Sounds to me like someone has their wires crossed and the story came back conveniently tied to salmon farms.

The herring that enter the pens live safely until harvest when they are "caught" and released.

I'd say they fare better than all the ones used as bait by guys like you.

I am not sure of the time of the harvest (happened in the last 2-3 months, can find out if need be) but that it not the important point. What is important it that there are eye witnesses to what happened at the salmon feedlot/farm. Also the herring were NOT released like they are supposed to be, they when questioned about this it was found out that they were sold to Walcan!

So what do we have here; (1) herring and other small wild fish being mixed up with feedlot salmon and potentially getting diseased (see articles about recently found diseased herring), (2) wild fish (in this case herring) being illegally harvested and then illegally sold by salmon feedlots to help sustain their economically and environmentally unsustainable industry!

Herring populations in this area are down and in some areas haven't spawned in siginficant numbers in 3-4 years, but oh well, not a problem for the feedlot farmers... disgusting, shamefull and illegal I and others say!!!

If your industry didn't have such strong 'paid for' political support from DFO & other Govt bureaucrats the offending parties would be fined and/or shut down for such activities!

 

[ClayoquotKid]

I am not sure of the time of the harvest (happened in the last 2-3 months, can find out if need be) but that it not the important point. What is important it that there are eye witnesses to what happened at the salmon feedlot/farm. Also the herring were NOT released like they are supposed to be, they when questioned about this it was found out that they were sold to Walcan!

So what do we have here; (1) herring and other small wild fish being mixed up with feedlot salmon and potentially getting diseased (see articles about recently found diseased herring), (2) wild fish (in this case herring) being illegally harvested and then illegally sold by salmon feedlots to help sustain their economically and environmentally unsustainable industry!

Herring populations in this area are down and in some areas haven't spawned in siginficant numbers in 3-4 years, but oh well, not a problem for the feedlot farmers... disgusting, shamefull and illegal I and others say!!!

If your industry didn't have such strong 'paid for' political support from DFO & other Govt bureaucrats the offending parties would be fined and/or shut down for such activities!

Did anyone think to ask Walcan?

Here's the facts:

Walcan has a license to fish Pacific herring and they contract out boats to capture herring in late fall/winter.

All herring from this fishery are mainly sold to the sport fishery (~ 500 tonnes).

The herring get loaded into holding net-pens through the winter and are harvested from the net-pens for processing.

Walcan does not buy by catch – that is illegal – all herring sold must be validated for sale. Herring gets sold to sport fishing bait – to resorts, fisherman and tackle shops.

A small portion gets sold to zoos for animal feed.

Any herring caught from the pacific ocean can only be sold to areas within the pacific coast watershed.

Walcan receives no herring in salmon deliveries from farms.

It is separated out at the point of harvest, and is publicly recorded here: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/reporting-rapports/incidental-accidentel-eng.html .

You guys should really do some research before spouting off about "disgusting, shameful and illegal".

Your willingness to gobble up any story painting aquaculture in a negative light leaves you looking more than a little foolish, not to mention completely hypocritical.

Watch for this one on Twitter: http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/

 

[agentaqua]

So, basically you're saying that the entire coast is a migration route for wild salmon? How convenient.

CK: I understand that you feel it is "inconvenient" that there are all these annoying wild salmon in the way of your industry expanding - with it's inadequate and unmitigatable open net-cage techology.

The reality is that these salmon have been migrating as adults, subaddults and juveniles for many thousands of years BEFORE you ever showed-up - and I pray to God - will still be doing this for thousands of years to come - even if us stupid humans no longer exist as we do today.

The reality is that many people depend upon these runs of salmon and will spend the time needed countering yur industry dribble - and will actively demand openess and transparency about your impacts.

So far, you have demonstrated a very immature and indefensible position about the fact that your assessments are a sham, and provide no real protection against wild-cultured stock interactions.

Yes - the entire coast is either/or a migratory path and/or holding/rearing areas for a multitude of aquatic species - including salmon. Salmonids are likely the most at risk from your open net-cage technology and operations given how easily diseases and parasites can transfer between the 2 groups. The fact that you personally deny this fact to yourself - in no way mitigates the potential and real risk and impacts to wild stocks.

IF you were forced to do scientifically-defensible environmental and fish health risk assessments - using real environmental assessments - using scientifically-defensible siting criteria - some of those risks and impacts could be minimized - but not removed - due to the technology you use. It's "open" net-cage technolgy. Water carrying viruses and parasites travel in and out of the net-pens. There is no way you can currently begin to understand your impacts w/o doing the necessary science - science your industry has so far been successful in avoiding through corrupting the systems that should be used to provide proper oversight.

I've always loved the scale on that map that places big dots the size of cities where farms are. I guess if it was actually to scale you wouldn't be able to see the little specks they actually are.

The fact that your floating barge is so many square feet or your tenure is so many square feet - has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your potential and realized impacts locally, regionally, Nationally or internationally.

It is another misleading and inane argument used when you can't think of any other defense.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

CK: I understand that you feel it is "inconvenient" that there are all these annoying wild salmon in the way of your industry expanding - with it's inadequate and unmitigatable open net-cage techology.

The reality is that these salmon have been migrating as adults, subaddults and juveniles for many thousands of years BEFORE you ever showed-up - and I pray to God - will still be doing this for thousands of years to come - even if us stupid humans no longer exist as we do today.

The reality is that many people depend upon these runs of salmon and will spend the time needed countering yur industry dribble - and will actively demand openess and transparency about your impacts.

So far, you have demonstrated a very immature and indefensible position about the fact that your assessments are a sham, and provide no real protection against wild-cultured stock interactions.

Yes - the entire coast is either/or a migratory path and/or holding/rearing areas for a multitude of aquatic species - including salmon. Salmonids are likely the most at risk from your open net-cage technology and operations given how easily diseases and parasites can transfer between the 2 groups. The fact that you personally deny this fact to yourself - in no way mitigates the potential and real risk and impacts to wild stocks.

IF you were forced to do scientifically-defensible environmental and fish health risk assessments - using real environmental assessments - using scientifically-defensible siting criteria - some of those risks and impacts could be minimized - but not removed - due to the technology you use. It's "open" net-cage technolgy. Water carrying viruses and parasites travel in and out of the net-pens. There is no way you can currently begin to understand your impacts w/o doing the necessary science - science your industry has so far been successful in avoiding through corrupting the systems that should be used to provide proper oversight.

The fact that your floating barge is so many square feet or your tenure is so many square feet - has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your potential and realized impacts locally, regionally, Nationally or internationally.

It is another misleading and inane argument used when you can't think of any other defense.

I don't need to argue any points for a defense Aqua.

Nature does that for me every year we operate alongside wild populations without any of them being shown to decline.

Your call for endless assessments is nothing more than an attempt to stop the industry in its tracks through piles of red tape, and your ever smaller measurements of proposed impact will inevitably lead you to a truly indefensible point of comparision to other practices - like fishing, and the associated bycatch, or release mortality.

I've grown truly tired of your pedantic judgement of my maturity and accusations - you may claim I am being misleading and inane when attempting to contextualize the repeated material put forward here, but I will certainly not forget when you called me a sociopath when your argument was challenged.

If the only reason you see for our continued legal, sustainable and heavily regulated operation is "through corrupting the systems that should be used to provide proper oversight"...

Well I have nothing more to say to you.

Good day sir.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

No I don't think its the size its the concentration in close vicinity to each other that is most worrisome . I assume you are up on the west side of island in the cluster. Isn't that convenient as this is one of the areas that is having problems right now.

What problems would those be?

Got some numbers?

Or just second-hand, "I remember when..." and, "We used to..."

You should see the fleet out here - really suffering.

Check out all those years BEFORE aquaculture started when there was LESS FISH THAN THERE IS NOW.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

This seems about right.

 

[Andrew P]

Did anyone think to ask Walcan?

Here's the facts:

Walcan has a license to fish Pacific herring and they contract out boats to capture herring in late fall/winter.

All herring from this fishery are mainly sold to the sport fishery (~ 500 tonnes).

The herring get loaded into holding net-pens through the winter and are harvested from the net-pens for processing.

Walcan does not buy by catch – that is illegal – all herring sold must be validated for sale. Herring gets sold to sport fishing bait – to resorts, fisherman and tackle shops.

A small portion gets sold to zoos for animal feed.

Any herring caught from the pacific ocean can only be sold to areas within the pacific coast watershed.

Walcan receives no herring in salmon deliveries from farms.

It is separated out at the point of harvest, and is publicly recorded here: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/reporting-rapports/incidental-accidentel-eng.html .

You guys should really do some research before spouting off about "disgusting, shameful and illegal".

Your willingness to gobble up any story painting aquaculture in a negative light leaves you looking more than a little foolish, not to mention completely hypocritical.

Watch for this one on Twitter: http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/

Ok, CK, full picture here. You make it sound like rec anglers use up more herring than your salmon do. Is this what you are trying to claim?

See the chart below. Now take your calculator and multiply the 15000 tonnes that are for the herring roe fishery by roughly .7(everything but the eggs) and that is how much of the biomass that primarily goes to aquaculture feed. I got this info from the herring processing plant and the dfo herring resource manager directly. Any usage by rec anglers pails in comparison to this.

You are obviously not interested in having a reasonable discussion on this and come back with partial views of the reality. These are the type of questions and answers that all Canadians need to see as this topic is of national interest. I will be forwarding information to the media contacts that I have and they will ask you and your company the questions directly and hopefully we will get direct answers. If anyone would like to send me a PM with any direct questions that you would like answering, I would be happy to pass them along.

I love salmon, herring and all that they support and volunteer hundreds of hours every year to their enhancement and protection. Apparently it is hypocritical for me to be able to harvest some to feed my family.

Cheers, Ap

 

[Birdsnest]

I would think that the remaining product from the herring roe fishery is byproduct. In other words the roe fishery is going to happen no mater what thus being titled the "herring roe fishery". Just another example of how the haters go at fish farms at all angles regardless of the fine print.

Go after the herring roe fishery if you do not agree with it.

Before salmon farms what happened to the byproduct of this herring roe fishery?

 

[Andrew P]

Oh don't you worry birds nest, your industry is not the only that is unsustainable and the herring roe fishery is actually worse in my opinion. To shut down fishery that takes from the future generation seems like it would be an easy thing to acheive; the unsustainabity of that is pretty obvious. I'm sure you guys would be just fine with that right? Because you care so much for the ecosystem at large. You are doing your part though by taking care of what would have been wasted right? You wouldn't care about thousands of tonnes of cheap feed being unavailable for your food processing company(assuming you work with ck). The entire sham comes to light with each day that passes.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Ok, CK, full picture here. You make it sound like rec anglers use up more herring than your salmon do. Is this what you are trying to claim?

See the chart below. Now take your calculator and multiply the 15000 tonnes that are for the herring roe fishery by roughly .7(everything but the eggs) and that is how much of the biomass that primarily goes to aquaculture feed. I got this info from the herring processing plant and the dfo herring resource manager directly. Any usage by rec anglers pails in comparison to this.

You are obviously not interested in having a reasonable discussion on this and come back with partial views of the reality. These are the type of questions and answers that all Canadians need to see as this topic is of national interest. I will be forwarding information to the media contacts that I have and they will ask you and your company the questions directly and hopefully we will get direct answers. If anyone would like to send me a PM with any direct questions that you would like answering, I would be happy to pass them along.

I love salmon, herring and all that they support and volunteer hundreds of hours every year to their enhancement and protection. Apparently it is hypocritical for me to be able to harvest some to feed my family.

Cheers, Ap

View attachment 8667

I can, and will, have a resonable discussion with a reasonable person and I am not required to answer to every single speculative accusation and theory thrown out on this forum.

As far as I know you are mistaken in assuming that BC herring is used for aquaculture feed.

If, as Birdsnest said, the byproduct of a fishery is used the fishery would occur regardless of aquaculture.

I can't read the chart that you put up before, so I looked at the DFO website and found this.

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2013/herring-hareng-2012-2013-eng.pdf

3.3 Processing and Exporting
Once it is processed, herring can be found in many different forms such as fresh product,
spawn on kelp and roe herring. Roe herring, on average, contributes roughly 85% to 90%
of the total wholesale value (value after processing, which includes processing of
imported raw product). Nearly all of BC’s herring is sold to Japan, China and the US.
Japan is the dominant market, having imported about 76% of BC’s herring products, on
average, for the 2007-2011 period.

Allocation, quota issued, and landings by licence category.

Expected Use -Personal Use, Sport Bait, Commercial Bait, Human Food & Bait, Zoo & Aquarium

I don't see anything in there about aquaculture feed use.

As far as the sustainability of our feed, it is a huge concern for us and we put a lot of research into reducing the amount of wild sourced protein needed.

"So why is there such concern about increased pressure on wild fish stocks? We are not buying any more marine ingredients than we did ten years ago, yet we have been able to produce more feed each year."

http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Fish Forever Final.pdf

 

[Andrew P]

I can, and will, have a resonable discussion with a reasonable person and I am not required to answer to every single speculative accusation and theory thrown out on this forum.

As far as I know you are mistaken in assuming that BC herring is used for aquaculture feed.

If, as Birdsnest said, the byproduct of a fishery is used the fishery would occur regardless of aquaculture.

I can't read the chart that you put up before, so I looked at the DFO website and found this.

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2013/herring-hareng-2012-2013-eng.pdf

3.3 Processing and Exporting
Once it is processed, herring can be found in many different forms such as fresh product,
spawn on kelp and roe herring. Roe herring, on average, contributes roughly 85% to 90%
of the total wholesale value (value after processing, which includes processing of
imported raw product). Nearly all of BC’s herring is sold to Japan, China and the US.
Japan is the dominant market, having imported about 76% of BC’s herring products, on
average, for the 2007-2011 period.

Allocation, quota issued, and landings by licence category.

Expected Use -Personal Use, Sport Bait, Commercial Bait, Human Food & Bait, Zoo & Aquarium

I don't see anything in there about aquaculture feed use.

As far as the sustainability of our feed, it is a huge concern for us and we put a lot of research into reducing the amount of wild sourced protein needed.

"So why is there such concern about increased pressure on wild fish stocks? We are not buying any more marine ingredients than we did ten years ago, yet we have been able to produce more feed each year."

http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Fish Forever Final.pdf

Sorry for the small chart, but it is the same one that you have linked in.

All I know is that I spoke to the manager of the fish processing plant that processed the 'record' haul this last spring on the East Coast of Van Isle. She told me that all of the byproduct was going into fish farm feed.

Just because there is not quota allocated for the aquaculture industry does not mean that the by-product of the roe fishery does not go to aquacuture. So, 85-90% of the wholesale value comes from the approx 30%(roe) of the weight....that means to me that the fish feed industry has probably made a pretty sweet deal getting 70% of the weight for 10-15% of the total wholesale value. I have asked my DFO herring contact for some more info on this....as I am also confused on where it all goes to. But, by looking at it....it seems to me that the aquaculture industry uses more tonnage of herring(by product or not) than all others combined.

But again, this is all here say from DFO and the processors. I would think that you would have more access to this information than I would. When I hear back from DFO with clarification on this, I'll ask about the possibility of having the information on where the by-product from the roe fishery goes to added to the Herring Management Plan in the future. I'll also ask him where the by product used to go. I believe that most of it used to go to fertilizer, but not sure on that one.

 

[Birdsnest]

I am interested to see what you find out AP but I have a feeling that regardless of what you discover you will tag that mass of herring byproduct to salmon farming. Ya if they did get it they probably did get it for a good price. Thats the nature of by product. And its probably better than shipping feed from the other side of the planet "if" it is byproduct. ITs byproduct. I suspect that if it did go to salmon feed( this includes hatchery production for free range) that it was not earmarked "for" aquaculture because it is from the herring roe fishery. Perhaps DFO does not list it as aquaculture use because it is byproduct. I know it does not matter how much I say byproduct you are going to reverse the reality in your mind and insist that its an aquaculture fishery and the roe is just byproduct. lol We'll see.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Sorry for the small chart, but it is the same one that you have linked in.

All I know is that I spoke to the manager of the fish processing plant that processed the 'record' haul this last spring on the East Coast of Van Isle. She told me that all of the byproduct was going into fish farm feed.

Just because there is not quota allocated for the aquaculture industry does not mean that the by-product of the roe fishery does not go to aquacuture. So, 85-90% of the wholesale value comes from the approx 30%(roe) of the weight....that means to me that the fish feed industry has probably made a pretty sweet deal getting 70% of the weight for 10-15% of the total wholesale value. I have asked my DFO herring contact for some more info on this....as I am also confused on where it all goes to. But, by looking at it....it seems to me that the aquaculture industry uses more tonnage of herring(by product or not) than all others combined.

But again, this is all here say from DFO and the processors. I would think that you would have more access to this information than I would. When I hear back from DFO with clarification on this, I'll ask about the possibility of having the information on where the by-product from the roe fishery goes to added to the Herring Management Plan in the future. I'll also ask him where the by product used to go. I believe that most of it used to go to fertilizer, but not sure on that one.

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from on this one

So, we have a commercial herring fishery driven by profit and managed by DFO which has all the same bycatch and stock management issues as any other, and part of this fishery creates a byproduct once the valuable roe is stripped.

This byproduct occurs, and has occurred, from the inception of this fishery and used to be turned into fertilizer, or fed to farm or zoo animals.

Here is where aquaculture MAY come in - using the byproduct of an already occurring fishery to feed a high value fish with a very low conversion rate.

And you would think this is a bad thing?

Aquaculture does not create the fishery it sources the byproduct from (from what I have heard the herring byproduct not used by aquaculture, although the trimmings from the hake fishery may be)

Who cares if the theoretical (and let's make this clear - this is all your supposition here) price of the byproduct is favourable to the buyer?

Just becuase you don't like salmon farming you take issue with a byproduct being sold to them at what you might consider a good deal?

I, for one, would think it was a good thing that BC herring byproducts were used to create more value for BC through use in the production of farmed salmon.

Only someone with a biased, negative view of the industry would think otherwise.

Maybe you would be happier if they kept on fishing herring and stripping the roe so it could be shipped overseas and then just mulched the rest?

 

[Andrew P]

Oh birdsnest....I may seem that cynical....but I am not THAT bad. All that I want is the facts....and it is hard to find the clear ones. I will relay the info exactly as I find it.

The fact of the matter is that I do not see a place for the current form of herring roe fishery in a sustainable future. Roe on kelp has a future I would say, but not killing the parents to just get the eggs. Herring, unlike salmon of course, don't just lay eggs once and die. They become mature after 3-4 years and then will continue to return to the same spot every year until their demise. They can live beyond 15 years so you can see how unsustainable it would be to target the largest(oldest and most productive) herring. Roe on kelp(or an artificial surface) is a far better option as they will keep laying eggs year after year.

But, I could see how an end to this fishery would have a negative effect on the aquaculture industry.

Let's not forget the krill that feed the herring that feed the salmon. The feed industry receives most of the 500 tonnes that are harvested in the Georgia Strait each year. http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2013/herring-hareng-2012-2013-eng.pdf

 

[GDW]

DFO has a conflicting mandate. Can't say this is happening but I wouldn't be surprised if DFO allocated some herring for aquaculture but labelled it all under roe fishery since the roe is being sold.

DFO goes out of their way to ensure your success it's too bad they don't do the same for wild fish.

 

[Andrew P]

Obviously, my recent post sort of explains that. The only thing that I find more unsustainable in BC waters than the current form of salmon aquacuture is the current form of herring roe fishing.

It is very true that aquaculture did not create this fishery, But, do you think that DFO will diminish this if the by product is helping to support the aquaculture industry?

I do agree with you that using a by product here is a good thing....but as you can see, I think it is a shame that there is a herring roe fishery and therefore a by product in the first place.

 

[Andrew P]

Copper is often a by-product of gold mining....but we all know that both are valuable results of the process. It is no different with herring roe and the body(and ALL of the males) of the female left behind.

 

[cuttlefish]

It is the end of August and the release was dated July - Did they sit on this info for 2 months?

Sounds to me like someone has their wires crossed and the story came back conveniently tied to salmon farms.

The herring that enter the pens live safely until harvest when they are "caught" and released.

I'd say they fare better than all the ones used as bait by guys like you.

Ouch! Getting kinda snarky there, CK. So, back atcha... I've been trying to keep an open mind and see things from you point of view but I can't get my head quite that far up my a$$.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Oh birdsnest....I may seem that cynical....but I am not THAT bad. All that I want is the facts....and it is hard to find the clear ones. I will relay the info exactly as I find it.

The fact of the matter is that I do not see a place for the current form of herring roe fishery in a sustainable future. Roe on kelp has a future I would say, but not killing the parents to just get the eggs. Herring, unlike salmon of course, don't just lay eggs once and die. They become mature after 3-4 years and then will continue to return to the same spot every year until their demise. They can live beyond 15 years so you can see how unsustainable it would be to target the largest(oldest and most productive) herring. Roe on kelp(or an artificial surface) is a far better option as they will keep laying eggs year after year.

But, I could see how an end to this fishery would have a negative effect on the aquaculture industry.

Let's not forget the krill that feed the herring that feed the salmon. The feed industry receives most of the 500 tonnes that are harvested in the Georgia Strait each year. http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2013/herring-hareng-2012-2013-eng.pdf

An end to the herring roe fishery would have a negative effect on the aquaculture industry?

Really?

I think that you are overestimating the importance of what is actually a small component of the global byproduct/fishmeal market.

Your bias is leading you into some very shakey speculations here Andrew.

Plus, would it not be better to source something locally?

As for the krill fishery,

"Annual landings since 2005 have remained below 250 tonnes. The majority of catch is taken from Jervis Inlet and the Strait of Georgia.
Most of the commercial harvest of Euphausiids in BC is frozen for use in the manufacture of fish food. A small portion of the catch is freeze dried and used as aquarium pet food. There are also new and developing markets for “krill”, the common marketing name, as human food products, food additives, biochemicals, enzymes, and protein concentrates.
Market interest was increasing until 2002 but diminished significantly in 2003. The few active vessels appear to supply the available markets."

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2013/krill-sm-2013-17-eng.pdf

You see "fish food" and automatically assume it is for salmon aquaculture?

What about trout, sturgeon, char, or any of the other species that are cultured in BC and the rest of Canada?

Or, what about the feed needed for enhancement fish?

The use of krill in salmon feed used to be more common, but as the sourcing became an issue and the need for meal and oil was reduced over the years I really don't know if it is incorporated into the feed anymore.

Nowadays it goes to places like hobby aquariums and the Vancouver Aquarium, as well as being used for starter feeds for enhancement.

You may have to go grind your axe elsewhere.

 

[ClayoquotKid]

DFO has a conflicting mandate. Can't say this is happening but I wouldn't be surprised if DFO allocated some herring for aquaculture but labelled it all under roe fishery since the roe is being sold.

DFO goes out of their way to ensure your success it's too bad they don't do the same for wild fish.

Can't say this is happening, but perfectly willing to go out on a limb and speculate wildly?

Crazy theories and accusations - par for the course.

You guys think of "salmon farms" and you're all like...