Aquaculture; improving????

These kinds of reports are infuriating.

Over the decades science has tracked a virus to it origin, what this virus does to different fish is irrelevant if it kills them, how is a mute point.
Genetics, DNA a source of science without repute. 99% accurate and getting better all the time.
So this virus is tracked down to Norway and those salmon and then to BC JUST AFTER THE FISH FARMS START.

Just after fish farms start salmon runs start declining by 20% or so per year which just coincides with the mortality rate of diseased Atlantic salmon.
Over fishing by people are the cause, FF say. So regulation strangle fishing for wild stocks, hatcheries expand and more are added.
But runs still decline.
Global warming is the cause FF's say, but only in Canada eh? Or better only BC eh?
Meanwhile most fisher people can see a direct correlation between more FFs and the decline of some runs, just a fluke FFs say.
A couple of leading scientists pursue the science and are either muted/censored by the very department whose primary job it is to protect our wild stocks, the other is called a lunatic by FF's and they hire many people to create studies that they want to say something else.
The leaked federal government document that FF's blocked and censored under the threat of loss of employment and criminal charges of any federal scientist that gives out their findings. You see the FF's sat on the board that decided what information would be disseminated to the public AND politicians, so they got away with spoon feeding the politicos what they wanted them to know.

The Orca's, the black fish, the whales are finally enough to make the government act, it only took the death and near extinction of some to get some attention.
First nations evidently are not one big happy family.
Those that get paid by the FF's for a favourable opinion are in conflict with those that have need to the wild stocks for their own hereditary needs, all those along the rivers that go inland. But the FFs certainly don't want that talked about.
The governments FINALLY state that FFs' will be phased out, they are given a time line for the NON RENEWAL of leases. LEASES THAT RUN OUT.
FF's suddenly want to take the country to court, sue Canada because they are letting the leases run out and not renewing them. What? Did Canada and BC sell them the rights to these water ways for their use forever and are reneging on a contract?

Some FF's move and wonder of wonders a few salmon runs rebound, dramatically. Suddenly those runs aren't affected as much by global warming as the FFs were championing.

First Nations, the vast majority want them gone. The government states the will be gone.
Most countries in the world put so many restrictions on FF's the Farms create self-sustaining totally enclosed mobile fish farms or just kick them out. The US has laws against endangering species, people get fined BIG dollars and can go to jail if it is revealed that they knowing broke the law, which in Canada they have known about the virus and it's effect since the beginning. The head BC veterinarian did after all work and was paid by them.

There is more but what are the FFs doing now?
The court case is a stall tactic so they can come up with more feel good stories or stories of how we are saving the world by adding to food stocks.
They kill multi millions of small wild fish washing of sea lice. Now they admit they are washing off sea lice infestations. So where are those sea lice going?
There is a run a sockeye salmon that hang around a bay on the northern west coast, it just so happens there are a few relocated FF's in the area. Now that sockeye run was a lot less than anticipated and in these forums there are pics of sockeye loaded with sea lice and other fish caught at the same time but not sockeye that have different routes or staging areas have hardly any sea lice on them. So why? The sockeye run is easily found on the internet, where it goes. All those pesky recreational fishers have been sending in dna samples and now fish can be tracked.
But FF's still say not.

Just close the bloody things down.

If they are SO SURE they have nothing to do with wild salmon loss challenge them.
Make a bet with them.

Bet them if they voluntarily shut down for 5 years if there is not change in wild salmon runs they can have a 25 year lease on certain portions of the coast selected by ALL Canadian fishers, not some absentee owners. They go where we say. And their new traps have to be mobile and stay out of Georgia and Johnson Straits.

That is a good bet isn't it? IF THEY ARE POSITIVE it isn't them.

If they can spend 4+ million to buy 3 or 4 FNs' and make them the stoolies they are, to me, admitting guilt.

OR Tax the hell out of them. Make them pay $1 a fish for wild hatcheries and $2 per dead fish. Do like other countries, just show up to inspect without warning and hand out BIG fines and moratoriums, months long suspensions of operations.

Or make the endangered species as important as the whales, stop when they are around then use the same reasoning that is used for fishing closures now. Shut down for the whales even when not in the area.

Sea Shepard them.

Recently there was a brief story about whales being caught up or contacting FF nets.
 
Last edited:
I guess there must be some folks thinking they may be sticking around with the investment I posted above. Remember that DFO said transition dies not necessarily mean closing but could also mean transitioning to different technologies of other "transitions" .. what ever that gov speak means???
1711052441640.png
1711052554753.png
I like this one;
1711052674768.png
Except for all the Atlantic's that escaped.

I have caught Atlantic salmon years ago around Bamfield did't know what they were, thought it might have been a cross of some sort.
 
This story makes it sound like the “new tech” from that CR firm is more about protecting the already-mollycoddled farmed salmon grown in open net pens from the wild environment than vice versa.
 
So you think they should not try and improve and just be forced to be done. That's forward thinking. All industries must adjust and improve ...... otherwise we we just be burning coal, logging creeks etc. Hope you driving an EV.
 
Given the drastic reduction in fishing pressure one would hope for some sort of uptick in abundance.


"Our main finding, that marine mammal consumption of Chinook salmon has increased dramatically over the last 40 years and likely exceeds removals by fisheries"

"Increased consumption demand of growing marine mammal populations in the Northeast Pacific could be masking the success of coastwide salmon recovery efforts. For example, long term reductions in the salmon available for commercial and recreational fisheries may not reflect lower abundance of salmon, but rather a reallocation from human harvest to marine mammal consumption. Because many populations of Chinook salmon in the Northeast Pacific are of conservation concern, substantial resources have been invested to improve salmon passage through hydropower dams25, restore salmon habitat26, reduce fishing27, and otherwise improve conditions in rivers and streams to improve productivity. Collectively, these recovery efforts may have increased Chinook salmon survival or recovery, but these increases in salmon populations may be offset by salmon consumption by more-rapidly increasing populations of marine mammals and other predators. Samhouri et al.17 point out the challenges of this type of “predator-first” recovery, versus synchronous recovery of both predator and prey."
 
Chinook salmon biomass consumed by the marine mammal predators was estimated to have increased steadily over the entire study period from 6,100 to 15,200 metric tons (Fig. 3a,b). The estimated increase in predation was directly related to increasing predator abundance used in our model. Killer whales increased from 292 to 644 individual resident killer whales, harbor seals increased from 210,000 to 355,000, California sea lions increased from 5,900 to 47,000, and Steller sea lions increased from 74,400 to 78,500. Killer whales consumed the most Chinook salmon biomass (from 5,400 metric tons in 1975 to 10,900 metric tons in 2015), followed by harbor seals (400 to 2,500 metric tons), Steller sea lions (300 to 1,200 metric tons), and California sea lions (50 to 600 metric tons). Orcas are getting most of the big chinook according to this study.
 
So you think they should not try and improve and just be forced to be done. That's forward thinking. All industries must adjust and improve ...... otherwise we we just be burning coal, logging creeks etc. Hope you driving an EV.
The FFs had 20+ years to improve instead they covered up results that they and government had. Scientific results from the government scientists not these made up reports they pay for.
These cover ups are started by the group that manages public information and the FFs sit on that group. If they veto a report they don't approve and then it got/gets buried.
As far as all these reports;
Funny thing happen to me in life, I got asked to do a report/audit for a company, I was honest and the company did not come out looking very good. I got paid and the report was buried. Now this wasn't about FFs, be clear, but in my naivete I reported what I found, not what they wanted me to compile or hear. I never got another job

FFs are not native to BC, they are a proven, world wide, to harm native species and environments.
Obviously your point of view is FFs are perfect, only in BC though, even the Ford motor company built an Edsel, these FFs that have had decades to improve on their own had to be lawyered into improvements in some countries some changes they could have done decades ago but didn't.

"Our main finding, that marine mammal consumption of Chinook salmon has increased dramatically over the last 40 years and likely exceeds removals by fisheries"

"Increased consumption demand of growing marine mammal populations in the Northeast Pacific could be masking the success of coastwide salmon recovery efforts. For example, long term reductions in the salmon available for commercial and recreational fisheries may not reflect lower abundance of salmon, but rather a reallocation from human harvest to marine mammal consumption. Because many populations of Chinook salmon in the Northeast Pacific are of conservation concern, substantial resources have been invested to improve salmon passage through hydropower dams25, restore salmon habitat26, reduce fishing27, and otherwise improve conditions in rivers and streams to improve productivity. Collectively, these recovery efforts may have increased Chinook salmon survival or recovery, but these increases in salmon populations may be offset by salmon consumption by more-rapidly increasing populations of marine mammals and other predators. Samhouri et al.17 point out the challenges of this type of “predator-first” recovery, versus synchronous recovery of both predator and prey."
Your a baby, meaning you were not fishing in the 60' on. For fisher's that have been around longer than the FFs and fishing can remember the Adams river sockeye run, Sun Salmon derby and all the other fishing derbies that used to be around. Port Alberni's salmon runs where there were so many Chinook in August at the river's mouth you could catch them just dropping a bare hook in the water.
Campbell River stocks were poisoned in the river but are coming back slowly.

The dams. When were they built? How many decades ago? What were the runs like right up to when the FFs started? Did you actually see them? Fish for them? Or just read some fairy tale?

Pinniped population explosion do contribute to reductions but there is a cull happening now, a quiet one.

As far as Orca salmon consumption the resident pod, is the pod that targets Chinook as it's primary food source and there are under 100 of them and isn't it odd that the northern population is growing, where there are not FFs;

The farming of finfish in Alaska was banned in 1990 to protect wild stocks from the danger of disease and pollution as well as the possibility of escaped farmed fish displacing or breeding with wild fish. Alaska statutes currently prohibit any species of finfish farming in the waters of the state.
Escapement, another cover up. I just watched a news bit about how hump backs were tangled in the not native to BC FF nets. But not a mention of escapements. Some of these humpy's were so tangled they died. 5 entanglements per year with 3 dying.

Cigarette companies have 1000's of studies that found no links to cancer, for 60 years. You get what you pay for.

Chinook salmon biomass consumed by the marine mammal predators was estimated to have increased steadily over the entire study period from 6,100 to 15,200 metric tons (Fig. 3a,b). The estimated increase in predation was directly related to increasing predator abundance used in our model. Killer whales increased from 292 to 644 individual resident killer whales, harbor seals increased from 210,000 to 355,000, California sea lions increased from 5,900 to 47,000, and Steller sea lions increased from 74,400 to 78,500. Killer whales consumed the most Chinook salmon biomass (from 5,400 metric tons in 1975 to 10,900 metric tons in 2015), followed by harbor seals (400 to 2,500 metric tons), Steller sea lions (300 to 1,200 metric tons), and California sea lions (50 to 600 metric tons). Orcas are getting most of the big chinook according to this study.
A huge problem with this study.

All reductions of salmon runs were attributed to predation without any to do with the now established fact that FFs kill wild fish. Not one fish was counted disease as a factor. Even if it was a native outbreak. It didn't take into account the poisoning of the Campbell River and the devastation of that river's runs, "The Salmon Capitol of the World"

Consumption of Chinook salmon biomass ((a) juveniles, (b) adults ocean age one and greater) and total numbers ((c) juveniles, (d) adults ocean age one and greater) by killer whales (KW), harbor seals (HS), California sea lions (CSL), and Steller sea lions (SSL) from 1975 to 2015. Consumption is summed across all eight model areas shown in Fig. 1.

As of September 2022, there were an estimated 73 southern resident killer whales in B.C., Center for Whale Research. As of January 2023, there were an estimated 370 Bigg's killer whales in the province. SEE ALSO: New census shows decrease in Southern Resident killer whale population, despite recent births.Nov 8, 2023

There are an estimated 400 Bigg's killer whales in the coastal population, a much healthier number than its endangered cousin, the southern resident killer whale whose population is hovering around 74. The former eat mammals, including sea lions, seals and porpoises, while the latter feed exclusively on salmon.Dec 6, 2023


It didn't take into account the increase of Alaska fishers once they got more of Dixon Strait.
The capture of all those local Orca's back in the 60's, reduction of the population
This report is so flawed as to be imaginary or shallow.

I do agree about the pinnipeds but that seems to be being addressed.

There are a few things that can be done to see "cause and effect" in a short period of time because of the short life spans of fish.
Shut the FFs down, a bigger cull on pinnipeds, more hatcheries on more of the old spawning grounds all would have an almost immediate measurable result, within 5 years. Some stocks would have two generations by then and juveniles caught would show an increase in size.

The results of these "local BC" measures would/could be seen in one legislative term of the provincial and federal governments.
But BC still has the hammer with FF leases.
The Broughton Archipelago FFs were all moved or eliminated and the result is a large increase in salmon stocks that used that water way, not back to historic figures but the 20% loss year after year didn't happen but was much more than estimated by DoF. Global warming didn't stop. The only thing really different was the FFs removal.
 
This thread is maenadering into other areas of conversation that are not on topic. This one has very little leeway .
 
It's a good discussion on analyzing impacts to ONPSF on adjacent wild stocks. And we have collectively discussed these stressors/impacts and available methodologies numerous times on this thread and other similar threads on his forum for many years. There are both generalities and specifics to consider when assessing impacts:

The most vulnerable life history stage is the juvenile phase from 1st entrance into the marine environment up until they grow big enough to swim away from the influence of sea lice and disease vectors from the farms, and other nearshore impacts. This is generally 2-4 months on average, and generally happens when the smolts reach a size of 70-120mm+ fork length - which then becomes the size and locations where the big DFO trawl boats can catch the now larger survivors. What happens to the smaller smolts often goes unresearched. Out of sight - out of mind and out of the news. The important piece.

Not many places/studies follow the juvies throughout their whole juvie growth phase and feeding/growing locations. Not many places on the coast have smolt fences that look at overall marine mortality from smolt output to adult returns, neither. So, it is hard to track and compare ocean survival rates between farm and non-farm areas. That seems to work better for the industry and it's protector DFO.

A way to do this for the Broughtons was discussed at: https://sportfishingbc.com/threads/fish-farm-siting-criteria-politics.37507/page-25#post-453461

and: https://sportfishingbc.com/threads/aquaculture-improving.76888/page-148#post-1178940

And as discussed at: https://sportfishingbc.com/threads/fish-farms.68678/page-18#post-872298

In the context of ocean survival rates - from outmigrating smolts to returning adults - there is a tipping point. If a particular run/year/cohort has an ocean survival rate of maybe ~5-7% - they are doing fairly well - the run increases. From something like 2-3% ocean survival rate - the run is just hanging on. Below this (say 1-2%) - it's typically on a steep decline.

At higher survival rates - there is more scope for additional impacts - including those from FFs (and vice-versa).

HOWEVER - at say 2% ocean survival rates - any extra impacts become critical. An extra 1% mortality rate (which admittedly sounds innocuous - but doubles the actual mortality) will drive the stock into a steep decline.

That's why (IMHO) the additional mortality from fish farms is not only likely sporadic - but also very harmful when dealing with stocks at risk with low ocean survival rates - & stocks that are adjacent to open net-pen operations.

Over time - the extra mortality from fish farms can drive the "at risk" stock trajectories into a steep decline.

Pinks and chums are the smallest often entering the marine environment at 35-45mm fork lengths. Growth is generally ~1mm/day. Mortality from sea lice on smolts is size dependent, given not as prevalence (which is the typical reported metric), but rather intensity per gram of weight (which is almost never publicized). Different species and life history stages have different critical sea lice loads that cause mortality and this is yet another area DFO has purposely avoided going in their research and reporting. The best numbers I can find on numbers of lice per gram of fish that can cause mortality are in the range of 0.7 – 1.6 lice per gram of fish.

But, no need to publicize these metrics and any associated potentially bad news & have those ENGO activists latch onto yet another bad news story that Seawest snooze and the communications branch of DFO would have to spend time spinning a story about.

As we previously discussed at: https://sportfishingbc.com/threads/aquaculture-improving.76888/page-145#post-1164848

The scale of the impacts & locations of wild/cultured stock interactions should also be taken into consideration. I also posted data/graphs on these interactions in that post.

And then there is the equally lengthy conversation on impacts from disease amplification & transfer - which is yet other lengthy post about what is known, and what is purposely not looked at. Short version - Thank God for Kristi Saunders-Miller and the rest of the bunch @ PSF for doing the job that DFO should be doing.

ONPSF does NOT get a get outta jail free card because there might be other additional, cumulative impacts. More chipping away at OSRs makes the impacts on OSRs from FFs WORSE.
 
Last edited:
Thanks aa for your post.

Question?
onp are old technology and ff goes to a in ocean closed containment, which i believe they will, is this something that would appease the nay sayers?

Ff started way back (much more than 20yrs as been mentioned in above post) and just like any industry it has evolved in its practices, (think well boats being used in operations now)
Not many, if any industries, changed without prodding from government and/or outside pressures and we've seen that in this industry.
 
Thanks for the questions and dialogue, SF - and you are most certainly correct, SF: "Not many, if any industries, changed without prodding from government and/or outside pressures and we've seen that in this industry".

The term "government" needs a bit more focus, and discussion though.

There is:
1/ The political top end (i.e. elected and rotating cabinet & ministers) who's main job is to get re-elected in ~4 years. They heavily depend on the top end mandarins to give them their speaking notes & write their letters for signature;
2/ The unelected top end mandarins from the Deputy Minister (especially) to the Regional Directors who set policy, deal with numerous lobbyists, and try to maintain the status quo; and
3/ Finally, the bottom end employees and enforcement/management staff that keep their head down and do as they are told by the mandarins, and hope to live long enough to see that golden retirement. Nobody in the lower echelons gets promoted by taking the initiative and by bucking BS, propaganda and the numerous institutionalized conflicts of interest & collusion inherent within the Department - especially those coming from those captured mandarins at the upper end.

It's been both my experience and experienced opinion over the years that most of the movers and shakers in DFO Aquaculture have ZERO interest in publicly and openly doing the right thing for their legislated responsibility (AKA fiduciary duty) in protecting wild salmon - other than what they consider they should do to protect and hide impacts from their friends in the industry. The Communications Branch under the instructions of Timothy Sargent (thankfully now gone) & the Deputy Minister's office has been more than complicit in this cover-up & utter failure of fiduciary duty. You likely have read the email screenshots I posted on this thread detailing this corruption.

Any Fisheries Minister with a few brain cells and some courage like Joyce Murray gets ZERO help from the Departmental mandarins and gets thrown under the bus. I wouldn't look to the government to do the right thing and be proactive, and "prod" industry - and that's been the sorted, lengthy history. It's called "regulatory capture"; and the lawyer for First Nation Wild Salmon Alliance (FNWSA) - Sean Jones, partner at MacKenzie Fujisawa LLP - spoke at length about is history at: https://www.cpac.ca/headline-politi...usses-future-of-wild-salmon--february-12-2024

DFO needs to be dismantled, IMHO - and something like the Fisheries Research Board of Canada needs to be re-instituted. This requires a political fix - it won't come from within DFO. And most of the rest of Canada doesn't have such wonderful wild salmon resources as we do in BC; and the voting public that lives on the coast and watersheds in BC are a small minority of voting public. The truth needs to get out to the rest of Canada; but DFO communications and the industry follow Churchill's maxim: "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

But to answer your question on CC: I can't speak on behalf of any ENGOs, and I suspect any factoid or change can be made into another emotional campaign. The industry has become dependent upon the free pumping, free real estate, and free sewerage disposal rewarded by using the ONP methodology. These are additional costs incurred by CC technology. Atlantic salmon also need some salt water to grow properly, unlike say raising rainbow trout. And one needs decent power supply to run the pumps. These factors will change where one puts CC facilities - and those facilities would likely be located nearer markets and on the mainland with truck access - if that can be arranged. The industry would need to shift from its current remote ONP locations to more urban locations like Hardy & other offload ports with adequate transport, water and power supplies along with existing processing capacity.

So, there is ZERO push for the industry to transition to CC technology. And we and the wild salmon are stuck in this dilemma.
 
Last edited:
Thanks aa

The push is there from all directions, if not the industry wouldn't have invested hundreds of millions to combat issues that have come up with onpff,
The will has to be there to improve or fail they will,
I think we'll see in ocean ccff taking over as technology improves in future, onp will be history, where these ccff systems are located is another thing.
 
I hope you are right, SF. But making CC technology feasible & profitable as an alternative is also needed in addition to political will and adequate protection to wild salmon. We seem to be a far ways away from these goals at moment; but admittedly the dismantling of the wall in Berlin happened quite unexpectedly & quickly.
 
I hope you are right, SF. But making CC technology feasible & profitable as an alternative is also needed in addition to political will and adequate protection to wild salmon. We seem to be a far ways away from these goals at moment; but admittedly the dismantling of the wall in Berlin happened quite unexpectedly & quickly.
So close and yet so far away.
 



 

I'm now convinced ... if Leonardo is against then I can't argue as I'm sure he is a fish farms expert....... lol.
No worries - Brian wants to wine & dine him. I'm sure Brian will let him know how environmentally-friendly the ONP industry actually is! :)
 
Back
Top