Aquaculture; improving????

[Birdsnest]

Without a doubt, I would place my bet on improved wild salmon runs if their was a 10 year moratorium on all open net pen Fish Farms in B.C.

You mean just like the Skeena River system? Never been a fish farm on those migration routs and it had tens of years to comeback but it is suffering the same fate at the Fraser.

I can be "less educated", "religious", and "disingenuous" yet the basic observation that the Skeena system is sucking butt just as bad as the Fraser and it has NEVER had a fish farm on any of its migration routs.
This is the issue I have with all of agents choice select science is you can not quantifiably apply any of it to even a single run of bc salmon. So who behaving religiously on this topic?

 

[SpringFever552]

FF are not coming out of water by September 30, nor are they coming out by 2025, I'd take that to the bank

Tell me how this industry will be blamed for "more than minimal impact",
Those 4 words right there would shield any industry from threats that are being called for here.
All this " I think, I feel, I'd bet" crap is NOT proof of anything, any "peer reviewed " papers can be disproved with another study by some other
"peer reviewed" study.
Stats/ studies can be manipulated.
and anyone who thinks that sportfishers will get more in future are surely mistaken with all the reconciliation bs going down.
Best get your status card if you can.

Not a safe bet in my mind

 

[Birdsnest]

FF are not coming out of water by September 30, nor are they coming out by 2025, I'd take that to the bank

Tell me how this industry will be blamed for "more than minimal impact",
Those 4 words right there would shield any industry from threats that are being called for here.
All this " I think, I feel, I'd bet" crap is NOT proof of anything, any "peer reviewed " papers can be disproved with another study by some other
"peer reviewed" study.
Stats/ studies can be manipulated.
and anyone who thinks that sportfishers will get more in future are surely mistaken with all the reconciliation bs going down.
Best get your status card if you can.

Not a safe bet in my mind

Ya, I'm pretty sure sport fishing is going down hard by the same funding train/concerned citizens that salmon farming gets attacked by. The SRKW episode is a prime example of this.

 

[Dave]

Good question. With all the noise on this someone (Almo?) should have the DNA analysis.

edit. Reply to whitebuck

 

[Whitebuck]

Nothing? There has to be some major studies showing stocks that are effected by the fish farms if there is this much data showing they are harmful.

Any studies showing which stocks of Fraser sockeye or any other salmon that migrate at the beginning of their ocean journey at the the top of Van Island?

Are east coast Vanouver Island Chinook stocks that start their life cycle in this area ? How is their abundance?

 

[Dave]

So, no one on this site has any information regarding what Fraser sockeye and Chinook stocks are being impacted by sea lice? Surely this analysis has been done if sea lice are the cause of declines, no?

 

[agentaqua]

I am completely against fish farms in our waters.
Just wondering what stocks in particular have been identified as passing by FF in the top of Vancouver Island.

Nothing? There has to be some major studies showing stocks that are effected by the fish farms if there is this much data showing they are harmful.
Any studies showing which stocks of Fraser sockeye or any other salmon that migrate at the beginning of their ocean journey at the the top of Van Island?
Are east coast Vanouver Island Chinook stocks that start their life cycle in this area ? How is their abundance?

Some excellent questions, WB. It would take some time and digging to fully answer your questions. But... briefly - some years adults return thru the North side of VI - other years - they enter more strongly from the South. Then there is the juvies (most @ risk from FF operations) - whom generally go North thru Discovery Islands and out thru Johnstone Strait and into QCS - esp. Fraser River stocks. Some stocks/species stay more within SoG most of their life. Generally, ocean-type Chinook from various systems stay fairly close to shore. Generally, chum and coho numbers are very depressed on the ESVI compared to the WCVI.

The PSF & partners have done quite a bit of juvie work in SoG:
https://marinesurvivalproject.com/research_activity/list/juvenile-salmon-studies-ca/
https://kintama.com/wp-content/uplo...on-Coastal-Distributions-AFS-Book-Chapter.pdf
https://animalbiotelemetry.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s40317-020-00205-z
http://kintama.com/visualizations/

This is why FFs on the juvie migration routes are of such concern:
https://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15506
http://pelagicecosystems.oceans.ubc.ca/research/juvenile-salmon-survival/
https://thetyee.ca/News/2017/03/04/Norwegian-Disease-BC-Fish-Farm/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130951
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016851
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0012916&type=printable
https://environment.geog.ubc.ca/something-is-fishy-salmon-farming-on-the-b-c-coast/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308597X16304390
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ild_Pacific_salmon_in_British_Columbia_Canada
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.03221/full
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/a...covery_Islands_and_Johnstone_Strait_2015-2017
https://www.researchgathttps://www....covery_Islands_and_Johnstone_Strait_2015-2017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2944838/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139269&type=printable
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5838213/pdf/41598_2018_Article_22458.pdf
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/103/42/15506.full.pdf
https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/40712679.pdf
https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/40653043.pdf

 

[Whitebuck]

It was sort of a leading question AA. I am very familiar with the life cycles of our Chinook within the Fraser as per ocean/ stream type. Our ocean type obviously are in way better shape than our stream type.

Is there any correlation between our one almost stable stock of Adams sockeye and migrating away from FF?
Or any other abundant stock we have on the inside? The Cowichan Chinook are one of the most heavily studied stock we have and tends to spend most of its life Cycle with the inside as was as our fall HW Chinook. Should these stocks not be the most impacted by the FF?

Is there any areas that FF have been removed for over a decade and runs of local salmon have been on the rebound?


I would hope that with all this “evidence” of how harmful FF are, that FN would be more vocal and get the government to get rid of them. As that is the only way we are seeing any sort of change or action from our government.

 

[agentaqua]

I think the saddest thing I find about your valid and important questions, WB - is:

1/ why are we now here on a forum trying to figure this out many years after the farms have been in operation?
2/ Why aren't these questions asked and be made mandatory to answer BEFORE any FF sites are approved?
3/ Why has the industry successfully avoided an actual environmental assessment for each site all these years?

Corruption & collusion and protection by DFO and the regulators/promoters is the simple answer.

https://dspace.library.uvic.ca/bits...r_Cameron_PhD_2017.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=n
among Fraser River populations sea-type juveniles enter the ocean without extensive freshwater rearing, late in the year (~July), and reside for several months in the Strait of Georgia (Tucker et al. 2009, Beacham et al. 2014a, Beamish et al. 2016).
fall-caught juvenile sockeye salmon from Vancouver Island and the Fraser River fish co-occur with relatively high densities of juveniles from Rivers Inlet (Tucker et al. 2009). This pattern is noteworthy because the Rivers Inlet stock strongly declinedin the early 1990s, with poor marine survival identified as a key driver (McKinnell et al. 2001). If 80lingering individuals from southern BC populations rear in the same environment as Rivers Inlet juveniles, they may experience similarly high rates of mortality

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6309813/
While high water temperatures may have contributed to the higher prevalence (and perhaps transmission) of infectious agents in the ocean in 2013, it is also possible that fish compromised by a high infection burden in 2013 experienced enhanced susceptibility to infection. The sharp reduction in infection burden noted between the Strait of Georgia (Region 2) and the Discovery Islands (Region 3) in 2013 (but not in 2012) suggests evidence for a potential link between infection burden and survival, as we hypothesize that there would have been limited chance for these fish to recover from an array of new infections during such a short period of time (estimated at 43–54 days on average by Preikshot et al., 2012), especially in this critical period when they are also adapting to a new salinity environment.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/605878
Abstract
Two populations of homing sockeye salmon (Oncorhynchus nerka; Adams and Chilko) were intercepted in the marine approaches around the northern and southern ends of Vancouver Island (British Columbia, Canada) en route to a natal river. More than 500 salmon were nonlethally biopsied for blood plasma, gill filament tips, and gross somatic energy (GSE) and were released with either acoustic or radio transmitters. At the time of capture, GSE, body length, and circulating testosterone ([T]) differed between populations, differences that reflected known life‐history variations. Within‐population analyses showed that in Adams sockeye salmon, plasma glucose ([glu]), lactate ([lactate]), and ion concentrations were higher in the northern approach than in the southern approach, suggesting that the former was more stressful.

http://johnreynolds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/connors-et-al-2012-conservation-letters.pdf
Migration links ocean-scale competition and local oceanconditions with exposure to farmed salmon to shape wild salmon dynamics

 

[Birdsnest]

In this item what are the infections specifically found? All it states is “infected”.


So what agent is stating Or believes is that due do the presence of salmon farms There are elevated levels of pathogens and this is why the Fraiser sockeye returns are poor.

If this idea is correct then by this logic the Skeena systems sockeye should be doing much better than the Fraiser sockeye. Agents post suggest this without saying it with all the pathogen data.
So I have to ask: How can agent or anyone for that matter explain the equally low runs on the Skeena River without dismissing the argument against Fraiser in terms of the presence of salmon farms.
Basically what I am seeing is the argument that Elevated pathogens from salmon farms is causing low returns to the Fraser River. This is proven by showing low pathogen levels from the Skeena fish. But it really proves nothing if the Selena system is suffering the same poor returns as the Fraser While never ever having salmon farms on its migration routs. There is no correlation there. None.
How can one who supports agents position explain the low returns on the Skeena while taking such a firm position that the Fraser sockeye returns are poor due to the presence of salmon farms on those migration touts?

Id like to see how that is done.

 

[gone fishin]

Easy question should result in an easy answer.
Are Fish Farm Sea Lice and or disease killing any wild salmon.
Yes or no??

 

[gone fishin]

Lowest Sockeye return on the Fraser IN HISTORY!!
https://www.nelsonstar.com/news/rec...-passage/?mc_cid=b0bb6c9d6c&mc_eid=72b301a8fa
can anyone tell me how the commercial Sockeye fishery and return in the Alberni Cannel went this year?
they have very little exposure to Fish Farm disease and lice.

 

[agentaqua]

Lowest Sockeye return on the Fraser IN HISTORY!!
https://www.nelsonstar.com/news/rec...-passage/?mc_cid=b0bb6c9d6c&mc_eid=72b301a8fa
can anyone tell me how the commercial Sockeye fishery and return in the Alberni Cannel went this year?
they have very little exposure to Fish Farm disease and lice.

the early-season estimate for Somass sockeye was 168,800. They upgraded the run size estimate a few times - eventually to 330,000 - altho it's more likely that it will actually be ~282,000 after all is said and done. They are estimating ~283,000 sockeye for the Fraser this year. Virtually the same size run.

Size of Somass watershed 1,426 km2. Size of Fraser watershed 220,000 km2 - ~154 TIMES the size of the Somass.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that FFs are the sole reason for declines in stocks. But they do have an effect. The scale of that effect is the debate. or.. we could go to closed containment and get FFS out of the main migration routes and not have to have that debate.

 

[wildmanyeah]

IF you try to match returns to exposure to fish farms you will fail.

If you feel strongly about protecting wild salmon then as much as you hate fish farms you should also hate all the other industries that put pressure onto wild stocks.

Sea lice i believe is more a local problem and has less effect on stocks that have minimal exposure time. some of them migrating as fast as 8 miles a day. Salmon communicable diseases and viruses is a different story. I believe the best analogy for closed containment is comparing it to our land based farms where protocols have been developed over thousands of years to try to limit exposure between wild and farmed and vice versa.

When i read statements like these i don't have much hope tho for our wild salmon in the future "On Tuesday, dozens of Tseshaht members demanded a deal outside the Port Alberni Fisheries and Oceans office. Outstanding issues include roadside sales and allocation size considering their growing population."

I think its a fallacy to thing that wild salmon production could ever keep up to a growing human population. Altho in this case "wild" means mostly hatchery and well there are not looked at in much better light by the big ENGO's.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Easy question should result in an easy answer.
Are Fish Farm Sea Lice and or disease killing any wild salmon.
Yes or no??

The simple answer is yes,

But do you believe that we should do no harm to wild salmon? or if you think we do get to harm salmon what industrys get to?

 

[wildmanyeah]

This outlook doesn’t sound like an improvement: https://hr.economictimes.indiatimes...-dividends-warns-of-job-cuts-by-2024/77759072

Salmon farming companies among seafood winners in Warren Buffett's $6 billion Japan investment

https://www.intrafish.com/finance/s...uffetts-6-billion-japan-investment/2-1-866400

 

[gone fishin]

The simple answer is yes,
But do you believe that we should do no harm to wild salmon? or if you think we do get to harm salmon what industrys get to?

No need to debate the sins of the past or other current variables when it comes to Wild Salmon survival.
The fact remains Open Net Pet Fish Farms currently pose the single biggest threat to the survival of wild salmon AND it could be easily rectified.
As you pointed out it is possible to move these Disease riddled and Sea Lice infested killers on to land where they should be.

"In August last year, land-based salmon farmer Pure Salmon signed a supply contract with Itochu for the domestic distribution of 10,000 metric tons of locally-grown Atlantic salmon."
"In April, Marubeni, along with Nippon Suisan (Nissui) Europe snapped up 66.7 percent of the shares of another land-based salmon producer, Danish Salmon."

Why prey tell can't we follow that lead?
Why, because of the greed by foreign owners to maximizing profit with no regard of the consequences!

 

[wildmanyeah]

The fact remains Open Net Pet Fish Farms currently pose the single biggest threat to the survival of wild salmon

Is this true AA?

 

[Whitebuck]

Nope!

 

[Dave]

Is this true AA?

I think perhaps the Big Bar slide may influence his response.