An Acidic Ocean threatens Shellfish ...

[Dr Lunk]

Ran into this article the other day...

Shellfish farmers cannot use water pulled directly from the ocean to artificially grow new "seeds"... scary

“We grow them under different concentrations of CO2 to see how they live and die,” he said. “And they die if we use the ocean water. Period.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ean-threatens-shellfish-farms/article2219387/

 

[Dr Lunk]

didn't meant to add to the overwhelming amount of doom and gloom out there ... just curious to see what others thoughts are ...

 

[Lipripper]

Scary, yes....

Evolution happens for a reason.... something to watch for sure.

Wonder if (just a thought) southern States gulf oyster farmers are noticing the same thing or this is a localized event?

 

[cuttlefish]

Scary, yes....

Evolution happens for a reason.... something to watch for sure.

Wonder if (just a thought) southern States gulf oyster farmers are noticing the same thing or this is a localized event?

Evolution happens. It is as a reaction to environmental stressors. I'm not convinced any reason is involved.

As for a localized event, this is not the case. Southern states oyster growers were facing a similar situation with higher acidity in the Gulf. Then came the Deepwater Horizon blowout. They were wiped out and turned to Taylor (Puget Sound) for additional seed stock. Taylor had to turn them down due to reduced supply. Reduced oyster spatting is becoming a global phenomenon.

 

[Lipripper]

Hmmm... Something to look into.

Beats sitting at work waiting for the next failblog upload

I'm not convinced any reason is involved.

I don't understand that in relation to your post? Care to expand?

 

[Clipper]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rising-acidity-in-the-ocean

Interesting article.

 

[Dr Lunk]

good find clipper - a more in depth article for sure...While i agree with cuttle fish that evolution happens and species adapt - it is undeniable that we have sped up this process.

interesting to read more of the science behind it and the challenge's the oceans creatures will face.

 

[cuttlefish]

Hmmm... Something to look into.

Beats sitting at work waiting for the next failblog upload



I don't understand that in relation to your post? Care to expand?

Just that we understand the reasons for evolution. But I'm not convinced there is some Grand Reason behind it all.

 

[Seafever]

And awww geewhiz......the shellfish industry has had some awesome good years....right up until now......although the purported CO2 build-up has been going on for decades and decades.

 

[Englishman]

Seafever,

I don't understand your point. So acidification may have been going on for 50-80 years, but to quote from the Scientific American article link above:-

"The pH of seawater has remained steady for millions of years. Before the industrial era began, the average pH at the ocean surface was about 8.2 (slightly basic; 7.0 is neutral). Today it is about 8.1.

Although the change may seem small, similar natural shifts have taken 5,000 to 10,000 years. We have done it in 50 to 80 years. Ocean life survived the long, gradual change, but the current speed of acidification is very worrisome. Emissions could reduce surface pH by another 0.4 unit in this century alone and by as much as 0.7 unit beyond 2100. We are hurtling toward an ocean different than the earth has known for more than 25 million years."

Seems pretty scary to me. An example of yet another gigantic environmental experiment humanity is carrying out on this our only earth, with who knows what consequences........

 

[Seafever]

My point is they didn't have any trouble cashing in on shellfish farming for all that time.

When scientists bandy about figures on what was happening on the earth 25 million years ago.....I take that with a grain of a salt. Because they change these figures on a daily basis.

If 25 million years is not readily accepted...they will change that figure to 50 million.

And just because a scientist said it, does not make it fact. Recently we just found out that
Einstein was in fact incorrect on his lightspeed theory. But they have held it as gospel for decades also.

In science, their truths are absolute...until a new truth comes along.

Imagine yourself 400 years into the future......and laughing your butt off at some of the stuff we believe right now which is considered irrefutable.

For proof of that look at some of the things medicine , astrologers and scientists believed in the 1400's....and they were considered the "last word" in their day.

As mentioned on another thread, I think there are some good scientists around....but when you get to the top of the ladder, where money and power and research funding is involved.....they will say ANYTHING to justify an agenda.

As an aside:- Notice how they go on about sharks and alligators existing in the same form for millions and millions and millions of years?
How these animals have never changed in all this time and are masters of evolution in their current form?

Which is weird....since previous versions of sharks and alligators have long since fallen by the wayside.

Their implication is that the shark and alligator do not need to further evolve or adapt
anymore in millions of years.....EVEN THOUGH in all these millions of years the ocean has changed dramatically in many ways.


Those at the top in this world in this day have BIG agendas.

 

[tincan]

Just wanted to quickly jump in with a definition of what a "theory" really is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Scientific_theories

Science does not claim absolute truths by definition. Even for scientific theories that have seemingly infinite evidence (evolution, relativity) science is modest enough a discipline to allow for the minute possibility that the theory may not be correct. This is a blessing and a curse for science in that crackpots can point to any theory and say "hey, even the scientists don't say that it's 100% so we must need more testing before we can conclude that evolution is true or that global warming is occurring or that fish farms are breeding grounds for diseases". We can all see how this is turning out.

My point is they didn't have any trouble cashing in on shellfish farming for all that time.

When scientists bandy about figures on what was happening on the earth 25 million years ago.....I take that with a grain of a salt. Because they change these figures on a daily basis.

If 25 million years is not readily accepted...they will change that figure to 50 million.

And just because a scientist said it, does not make it fact. Recently we just found out that
Einstein was in fact incorrect on his lightspeed theory. But they have held it as gospel for decades also.

In science, their truths are absolute...until a new truth comes along.

Imagine yourself 400 years into the future......and laughing your butt off at some of the stuff we believe right now which is considered irrefutable.

For proof of that look at some of the things medicine , astrologers and scientists believed in the 1400's....and they were considered the "last word" in their day.

As mentioned on another thread, I think there are some good scientists around....but when you get to the top of the ladder, where money and power and research funding is involved.....they will say ANYTHING to justify an agenda.

As an aside:- Notice how they go on about sharks and alligators existing in the same form for millions and millions and millions of years?
How these animals have never changed in all this time and are masters of evolution in their current form?

Which is weird....since previous versions of sharks and alligators have long since fallen by the wayside.

Their implication is that the shark and alligator do not need to further evolve or adapt
anymore in millions of years.....EVEN THOUGH in all these millions of years the ocean has changed dramatically in many ways.


Those at the top in this world in this day have BIG agendas.

 

[Seafever]

Scientists used to say that EVERY dinosaur got wiped out millions of years ago in a cataclysmic event.

However that didn't fit their agenda because they want you to believe that birds are the offspring of that age.

So now.... they are saying " we have no proof that any raptors survived that age....but because we have birds therefore it is likely that some did survive....in fact we have a particular raptor that we have decided did survive....although we have absolutely NO proof that it ever did"

Scienterrorists are masters of "Revisionist Evolution".

If there is no evidence......then they will invent some.

 

[Dr Lunk]

Just wanted to quickly jump in with a definition of what a "theory" really is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Scientific_theories

hahaha Awesome !

...and obviously science has evolved since the 1400's and obviously some theories were proven innaccurate haha

 

[Englishman]

Seafever,

To answer you, I don’t know where to begin. I will start by saying I find it extraordinary that people accept the results and benefits that science brings – for example electricity, flight, immunisation and nuclear power to name but a few, while decrying science and scientists.
To take each of your points in turn:-
1) The evidence currently supports the ocean is unchanged for 25 million years. If the evidence points to revising that figure then it will be revised. It is not a question of “acceptance” it is a question of evidence. That is how science works.
2) Einstein has NOT been proved wrong. Those faster than light claims for a neutrino experiment are still being checked and examined.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...n-or-mistake/2011/09/23/gIQArpJzqK_story.html
They may yet prove to be wrong, just like the infamous so-called cold fusion. That is my bet!
3) You said “In science truths are absolute until something else comes along”. Change is its great strength! TINCAN is right, there are in fact NO absolutes in science. That is reserved for religion. No one is going to burn or excommunicate as heretics those scientists for publishing results that say neutrinos travel faster than light. They will either be proved right or wrong and science will move on.
4) I do not understand you point about scientists medicine and astrologers in the 1400’s There WERE no scientists as we understand the term in the 1400’s. Nor was there medicine. There were only astrologers and priests who spoke mumbo jumbo without any supporting evidence. The scientific method of experiment, observation, testing, and hypothesis and peer review of results was begun during the Renaissance and established in the 18th century.
5) Sharks and alligators have existed essentially unchanged for millions of years. The proof of that is in the fossil record. This does not mean there have been zero changes. Just few and small. Unless there is a selective environmental pressure on an animal to change, it will not change. Nothing strange in that. The Horse Shoe Crab is another example. (And by the way the Ocean has NOT changed for at least 25 million years (see point 1 above).
6) In your second post you mention the dinosaur extinction. Science never said that every life form was wiped out. Clearly we are here. The birds had already begun to branch from the dinosaurs at the time of the extinctions as shown by the fossil record like Archaeopteryx. There were probably other bird ancestors not yet found in fossil form that survived too. All science says is the evidence currently points to birds having descended from dinosaurs. It is not true to say science invents evidence. When new evidence arises there is publication, debate, discussion and sometimes new theories or revisions to old ones. That is how science works.
7) Finally, if you are not going to accept the methods and results of science, what are you going to replace it with? Opinion and fairy tale? The earth is the centre of the universe because I say it is? Left handed people are possessed by the Devil?
Science is the only thing that has got us out of fear, ignorance and superstition. It should be revered not denigrated!!

 

[Cuba Libre]

Left handed people are possessed by the Devil? They are---- arent they????? Same as red haired people-- definitely devil spawn!!! LOL

But seriously-- good points Englishman. While it is necessary to question science, to deny what has been proven and has worked to our benefit as humans, is silly......

 

[Steelhead S2]

People who believe in science are possessed by the devil!

 

[Weff]

Science is the only thing that has got us out of fear, ignorance and superstition. It should be revered not denigrated!!

It should indeed. Unfortunately for the vast majority, fear, ignorance and superstition is still very much alive! A few other thoughts...

Scienterrorists are masters of "Revisionist Evolution". If there is no evidence......then they will invent some.

That is absurd!!

Now I see where you're goin here. I know this will be pointless but here goes. You obviously see Revisionist Evolution as a weakness, interesting. Lets check that out. We'll just look at one requirement for an idea to qualify as a theory - It must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. Along with that this should be mentioned as well. It must be dynamic, tentative and correctable.

The overwhelming strength of the scientific method is that it allows for changes and improvement to theories as new information is discovered. This is why science has advanced by leaps and bounds. In fact that's why the Theory of Evolution is much stronger now than it was in Darwin's time. Revisionist Evolution - you betcha, it's revised and improved every day, that's called Science. On the other hand faith based belief systems generally have not accepted new information or have nothing to say about it.

Have the oceans changed much in the last 25 million years, nope. Are they changing now, there's no doubt in my mind. I believe the changes in the ocean will accelerate as with every other cause and effect we're having on this planet. Changes generally happen over very long periods of time, giving organisms a chance to evolve and adapt. This will not be the case this time......we are in the middle of the next mass extinction to think otherwise is sticking your head in the sand. Going off on a bit of a tangent here ......Many species will be wiped out before the changes in the environment are the reason for their demise, (although some are gone due to habitat loss already) the changes will just make it harder if not impossible for species to bounce back. We didn't think we could pollute something like the "ocean" - I beg to differ. We are accomplishing that in a myriad of different ways. We are losing ocean stocks at an alarming rate, species are crashing there's just too many people, it's no longer sustainable. World population should increase by 50% in another 38 yrs, do the math.

We are short sighted, immediate gain over long term prosperity. This island and it's resources are a perfect example.......you can blame most of this on corrupt government officials and greedy individuals and corporations in the last 50 yrs. Government should be held accountable, can you say east coast cod, can you say west coast salmon, can you say 93% of watersheds logged.....goes on and on...and the citizens aren't the winners. Who's benefitting, large corporations.

Shipping raw logs is just idiotic, we could create so many more jobs in forestry if we processed the wood. It also has the potential to slow down deforestation. It's exactly what happens to 3rd world countries, strip them of their resources, process the resources in other countries, not many jobs are really created, people stay impoverished. Keeping intact watersheds might have been an idea....healthier fish stocks, (if not over-fished) the ability for stocks to improve, could promote more tourism, more fishing both recreational (guiding) and commercial. Much too late for any of that now....we need to save what we have left and restore what's been affected. We don't own the wild areas and rivers of this island the logging companies do. Side note: The fact that the Plover Pt fish farm is still on the table is just a little screwed up. I really do believe we can save our wild salmon.....only time will tell.

Just my 2 cents worth.........sorry for the rant guys, it just seems so pointless sometimes. I get so frustrated especially with the fish farms, it's a no brainer. I really believe that they are running on borrowed time but we need to make it happen faster.

Damn it's 2:35 wth....LOL....should be sleeping not doing this.....the ability to think and type has all but disappeared ..... over and out...

Mr Sunshine