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There is a formula for implementing unpopular policy like this and the key ingredient is a hook. Orca are just the hook.
searun
Well-Known Member
Ian's lifetime of observations are 100% correct. Unfortunately this Critical Habitat designation is more about playing politics to appease the Greens than it is about making actual science based decisions aimed at really protecting whales and implementing strategies that will be most effective. The Green NGO's are pressuring DFO and the Minister to make rushed decisions based on flawed science advice. Read carefully the science advice that DFO is relying upon to designate Swiftsure and LaPerouse as Critical Habitat - you will see there is virtually NO actual scientific evidence offered. There is no passive acoustic monitoring for example on LaPerouse, there are virtually no observations of whales actually using this so called critical habitat. Its all make believe. As Ian points out, many people have bee fishing these areas for lifetimes with very few actual observations of killer whales using it other than transients who are not displaying feeding behaviours. Like Ian, I have been guiding off shore for 20 years (not his 30) and only observed the whales 3 times. Each time they were transiting the area and not feeding.
The facts are there are a series of very complicated reasons why this particular population (SRKW) are in trouble. They are things such as a population that has only a few breeding animals contributing to the genetic pool - this population is becoming significantly inbred as a result of those removals and live captures Ian mentioned to feed the demand for captive killer whale businesses - Aquariums. DFO allowed this to take place, without fully understanding the impacts to the genetic integrity of this population of animals - some of whom live very long lives. The population cycle takes a considerable period of time to fully develop due in part to the longevity of these animals. Much like a human population, where it takes time for a cycle such as the baby boomers to flow through the overall population demographic - these whales are no different.
If there is an imminent threat, its coming from the pollution being pumped into the ocean in Victoria and Vancouver - raw sewage in the case of Victoria. These animals are not starving - they are sick from successive decades of pollution exposure.
Add to that we have hordes of whale watching vessels chasing these animals around. We are allowing them to get too close, and this disturbs the feeding behaviour and success in acquiring prey. When whale watching vessels charge ahead of foraging whales they stir up the bait that salmon feed upon, and stir up the salmon themselves - making it more difficult for whales to acquire prey. Aside from this, people forget that these whales share food - the successful hunters will share with those animals who are not successful. Further, as Ian points out in his video there are populations of Chinook and other prey that are abundant and yet the whales are not targeting those in the summer months. Could that be that they are not having a lot of difficulty finding prey in the summer???
Would whales benefit from more food - hard to argue not. What tactics would be most effective at providing more food. Likely a combination of strategies, with no silver bullet or quick fix. Things like:
1) Increase hatchery production of chinook for populations of chinook that actually are known to "stay at home" rather than travel up to Alaska over the winter - we know those chinook are from Puget Sound, East Coast Vancouver Island, Squamish, and Lower Fraser rivers. All those rivers have existing hatchery facilities - lets invest and ramp up production
2) Decrease commercial fishing for salmon prey (herring, krill and crab). Salmon rely upon crab larvae in the early stages of their lives - and later more so on larger prey such as herring. Reducing commercial fisheries on these salmon prey species will enhance the survival and numbers of chinook available
3) Pinniped Predator control - there are well documented problematic individual harbour seals within specific populations that are known to target out-migrating Chinook smolts - we don't need a "seal cull" as much as we need a program to specifically remove the problem animals that are targeting Chinook smolts by up to 64% of all out-migrants. This is a major problem that no one wants to address for purely political reasons.
4) Pollution control - time for Victoria and Vancouver to make significant investments in their treatment facilities to move toward a zero waste clean outfall. Far too many pollutants and toxins are reaching the food chain - we are seeing whales who are sick, not necessarily starving.
5) Physical and Acoustic Disturbance control - whales need to have room. There is a balance that can be struck between protection and human activities such as fishing and whale watching. We need to explore more robust mobile protective measures. Whales range freely and many of the Area Closures are completely useless. Whales are very often not there!! Rather than an ineffective area closure strategy, what would be more effective is a 400m spatial exclusion zone around any whales - where vessel operators are strictly required to turn off sources of acoustic noise (sounders), and to cease activities such as sport fishing immediately, and slowly (less than 5 knots) leave the area to get outside the 400m "bubble zone." Also regulations to prohibit "leap frogging" a practice of positioning vessels ahead of the anticipated path of feeding whales to get in position to intercept their path and gain a good position to easily observe whales. This must be specifically prohibited.
6) The long winter months are more likely those months where finding prey such as salmon are more difficult for whales. Yet little to nothing is really known about what their feeding habits and required habitat during the winter months are. This is a complicated issue, requiring careful science to determine what actually are the limiting factors. We need more science to determine what whales need during the winter months
The facts are there are a series of very complicated reasons why this particular population (SRKW) are in trouble. They are things such as a population that has only a few breeding animals contributing to the genetic pool - this population is becoming significantly inbred as a result of those removals and live captures Ian mentioned to feed the demand for captive killer whale businesses - Aquariums. DFO allowed this to take place, without fully understanding the impacts to the genetic integrity of this population of animals - some of whom live very long lives. The population cycle takes a considerable period of time to fully develop due in part to the longevity of these animals. Much like a human population, where it takes time for a cycle such as the baby boomers to flow through the overall population demographic - these whales are no different.
If there is an imminent threat, its coming from the pollution being pumped into the ocean in Victoria and Vancouver - raw sewage in the case of Victoria. These animals are not starving - they are sick from successive decades of pollution exposure.
Add to that we have hordes of whale watching vessels chasing these animals around. We are allowing them to get too close, and this disturbs the feeding behaviour and success in acquiring prey. When whale watching vessels charge ahead of foraging whales they stir up the bait that salmon feed upon, and stir up the salmon themselves - making it more difficult for whales to acquire prey. Aside from this, people forget that these whales share food - the successful hunters will share with those animals who are not successful. Further, as Ian points out in his video there are populations of Chinook and other prey that are abundant and yet the whales are not targeting those in the summer months. Could that be that they are not having a lot of difficulty finding prey in the summer???
Would whales benefit from more food - hard to argue not. What tactics would be most effective at providing more food. Likely a combination of strategies, with no silver bullet or quick fix. Things like:
1) Increase hatchery production of chinook for populations of chinook that actually are known to "stay at home" rather than travel up to Alaska over the winter - we know those chinook are from Puget Sound, East Coast Vancouver Island, Squamish, and Lower Fraser rivers. All those rivers have existing hatchery facilities - lets invest and ramp up production
2) Decrease commercial fishing for salmon prey (herring, krill and crab). Salmon rely upon crab larvae in the early stages of their lives - and later more so on larger prey such as herring. Reducing commercial fisheries on these salmon prey species will enhance the survival and numbers of chinook available
3) Pinniped Predator control - there are well documented problematic individual harbour seals within specific populations that are known to target out-migrating Chinook smolts - we don't need a "seal cull" as much as we need a program to specifically remove the problem animals that are targeting Chinook smolts by up to 64% of all out-migrants. This is a major problem that no one wants to address for purely political reasons.
4) Pollution control - time for Victoria and Vancouver to make significant investments in their treatment facilities to move toward a zero waste clean outfall. Far too many pollutants and toxins are reaching the food chain - we are seeing whales who are sick, not necessarily starving.
5) Physical and Acoustic Disturbance control - whales need to have room. There is a balance that can be struck between protection and human activities such as fishing and whale watching. We need to explore more robust mobile protective measures. Whales range freely and many of the Area Closures are completely useless. Whales are very often not there!! Rather than an ineffective area closure strategy, what would be more effective is a 400m spatial exclusion zone around any whales - where vessel operators are strictly required to turn off sources of acoustic noise (sounders), and to cease activities such as sport fishing immediately, and slowly (less than 5 knots) leave the area to get outside the 400m "bubble zone." Also regulations to prohibit "leap frogging" a practice of positioning vessels ahead of the anticipated path of feeding whales to get in position to intercept their path and gain a good position to easily observe whales. This must be specifically prohibited.
6) The long winter months are more likely those months where finding prey such as salmon are more difficult for whales. Yet little to nothing is really known about what their feeding habits and required habitat during the winter months are. This is a complicated issue, requiring careful science to determine what actually are the limiting factors. We need more science to determine what whales need during the winter months
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doubleeagle
Crew Member
doubleeagle
Crew Member
well said
The enviro's are not asking for Swiftsure/La Perouse as critical habitat.
https://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/cb/ecosystem/marinemammal/satellite_tagging/blog.cfm
The above shows where K & L pod spent the winter of 2013. It appears funding got cut for subsequent study. They spent the pervious fall in Puget Sound eating Chum Salmon.
While it may not be the intent, the list looks like a "everybody but me is the problem" type of statement.
https://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/cb/ecosystem/marinemammal/satellite_tagging/blog.cfm
The above shows where K & L pod spent the winter of 2013. It appears funding got cut for subsequent study. They spent the pervious fall in Puget Sound eating Chum Salmon.
While it may not be the intent, the list looks like a "everybody but me is the problem" type of statement.
OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
Minister fires back at groups for suing over killer whales
Lindsay Kines
Southern Resident killer whale J50 and her mother, J16, are seen off the west coast of Vancouver Island near Port Renfrew, B.C., on August 7, 2018 in this handout photo. Scientists are reporting progress in the race to help an emaciated and endangered West Coast killer whale in the waters of the Salish Sea. Biologists with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association in the United States have tweeted that the team caught up with J50 and her pod near San Juan Island off Washington state. They were able to obtain a breath sample from the juvenile female orca to help assess any infection she might have and they also administered a dose of antibiotics. THE CANADIAN PRESS/HO - Fisheries and Oceans Canada - Brian Gisborne
Canada’s fisheries minister has fired back at environmental groups for launching court action to protect endangered southern resident killer whales instead of working with the federal government on the issue.
Jonathan Wilkinson said the groups abandoned discussions shortly after they began with federal officials and representatives from the transportation and fishing industries.
article continues below
“I have to say, personally, I was very disappointed in the action that was taken by the environmental organizations,” he told reporters in Victoria.
“They were the ones who initially asked to convene the multi-stakeholder forum. They effectively attended one meeting and then decided that they would pursue a more adversarial approach rather than a collaborative approach.”
Ecojustice lawyers, acting on behalf of five other conservation groups, launched a Federal Court case against Wilkinson and federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna this past week. The groups — the David Suzuki Foundation, Georgia Strait Alliance, Natural Resources Defense Council, Raincoast Conservation Foundation and World Wildlife Fund Canada — want the ministers to ask cabinet for an emergency order to protect the orcas.
Christianne Wilhelmson, executive director of the Georgia Strait Alliance, said Friday that the groups were prepared to work with government.
“But the process that they set up was all about talking, not about action,” she said. “It was clear that this was just another process that was going to take months and months and months — and the orcas don’t have that.”
The southern residents, whose numbers have dwindled to 75 in three pods, have been the focus of international attention for weeks.
First, an adult female orca, J35, made headlines after carrying the carcass of her dead calf through the Salish Sea for more than two weeks. Then, an emaciated three-year-old female orca, J50, became the focus of a joint Canada-U.S. rescue effort.
Researchers say a shortage of chinook salmon — the orcas’ preferred food — is one of the main reasons for their decline. Other factors include contaminants in the water and boat noise that interferes with the orcas’ ability to forage for food, researchers say.
Wilkinson insists the federal government has done an “enormous amount” to deal with those concerns.
He cited, among other things, the closure of chinook fishing in three key foraging areas; a 25 to 35 per cent reduction in the chinook fishery this year; a voluntary vessel slowdown in Haro Strait to reduce noise from passing ships; and a new requirement that whale-watching boats and other vessels stay 200 metres away from the orcas — double the previous distance. The construction of new sewage treatment plants in Victoria and North Vancouver will help reduce contaminants in the water, he said.
In addition, the government announced that it wants feedback on two new areas of critical habitat — one off the coast of southwestern Vancouver Island, including the Swiftsure and La Pérouse Banks, and the other in Dixon Entrance.
“We’re very open to implementing new measures if, in fact, we need to do that from a scientific perspective,” he said.
“I think this government is very proud of the work that it’s done and it very much intends to recover the southern resident killer whale.”
But Wilhelmson said the government has taken only “partial” measures to date. “They sound good on first blush, but when you look down, you see that they’re incomplete.”
She said seeking feedback on critical habitat areas is not the same as protecting those areas.
“That habitat may not be designated as critical habitat for another six to eight months, which means nothing changes,” she said.
“It really is misleading to say that they’re doing everything in their power. They’re not. They’re using normal processes, which take months and months, possibly years. Perhaps this is fast for government; it’s not fast enough for the orcas
Lindsay Kines
Southern Resident killer whale J50 and her mother, J16, are seen off the west coast of Vancouver Island near Port Renfrew, B.C., on August 7, 2018 in this handout photo. Scientists are reporting progress in the race to help an emaciated and endangered West Coast killer whale in the waters of the Salish Sea. Biologists with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association in the United States have tweeted that the team caught up with J50 and her pod near San Juan Island off Washington state. They were able to obtain a breath sample from the juvenile female orca to help assess any infection she might have and they also administered a dose of antibiotics. THE CANADIAN PRESS/HO - Fisheries and Oceans Canada - Brian Gisborne
Canada’s fisheries minister has fired back at environmental groups for launching court action to protect endangered southern resident killer whales instead of working with the federal government on the issue.
Jonathan Wilkinson said the groups abandoned discussions shortly after they began with federal officials and representatives from the transportation and fishing industries.
article continues below
“I have to say, personally, I was very disappointed in the action that was taken by the environmental organizations,” he told reporters in Victoria.
“They were the ones who initially asked to convene the multi-stakeholder forum. They effectively attended one meeting and then decided that they would pursue a more adversarial approach rather than a collaborative approach.”
Ecojustice lawyers, acting on behalf of five other conservation groups, launched a Federal Court case against Wilkinson and federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna this past week. The groups — the David Suzuki Foundation, Georgia Strait Alliance, Natural Resources Defense Council, Raincoast Conservation Foundation and World Wildlife Fund Canada — want the ministers to ask cabinet for an emergency order to protect the orcas.
Christianne Wilhelmson, executive director of the Georgia Strait Alliance, said Friday that the groups were prepared to work with government.
“But the process that they set up was all about talking, not about action,” she said. “It was clear that this was just another process that was going to take months and months and months — and the orcas don’t have that.”
The southern residents, whose numbers have dwindled to 75 in three pods, have been the focus of international attention for weeks.
First, an adult female orca, J35, made headlines after carrying the carcass of her dead calf through the Salish Sea for more than two weeks. Then, an emaciated three-year-old female orca, J50, became the focus of a joint Canada-U.S. rescue effort.
Researchers say a shortage of chinook salmon — the orcas’ preferred food — is one of the main reasons for their decline. Other factors include contaminants in the water and boat noise that interferes with the orcas’ ability to forage for food, researchers say.
Wilkinson insists the federal government has done an “enormous amount” to deal with those concerns.
He cited, among other things, the closure of chinook fishing in three key foraging areas; a 25 to 35 per cent reduction in the chinook fishery this year; a voluntary vessel slowdown in Haro Strait to reduce noise from passing ships; and a new requirement that whale-watching boats and other vessels stay 200 metres away from the orcas — double the previous distance. The construction of new sewage treatment plants in Victoria and North Vancouver will help reduce contaminants in the water, he said.
In addition, the government announced that it wants feedback on two new areas of critical habitat — one off the coast of southwestern Vancouver Island, including the Swiftsure and La Pérouse Banks, and the other in Dixon Entrance.
“We’re very open to implementing new measures if, in fact, we need to do that from a scientific perspective,” he said.
“I think this government is very proud of the work that it’s done and it very much intends to recover the southern resident killer whale.”
But Wilhelmson said the government has taken only “partial” measures to date. “They sound good on first blush, but when you look down, you see that they’re incomplete.”
She said seeking feedback on critical habitat areas is not the same as protecting those areas.
“That habitat may not be designated as critical habitat for another six to eight months, which means nothing changes,” she said.
“It really is misleading to say that they’re doing everything in their power. They’re not. They’re using normal processes, which take months and months, possibly years. Perhaps this is fast for government; it’s not fast enough for the orcas
searun
Well-Known Member
Your grossly mis-informed if you honestly believe that! The lawsuit isn't about demanding a study...it's about demanding a recreational and commercial salmon fishing coastwide closure...in addition to pressuring the government to expand critical habitat.
The recreational fishery has been significantly reduced over the past few decades, and despite that the decline in Chinook abundance on some stocks has continued. There are clearly other reasons for those declines that go well beyond the few Chinook the recreational fishery removes.
An example from DFO's summary of Management Measures to further reduce recreational chinook fisheries this year by a further 30% which is in addition to the negotiated reductions via the Salmon Treaty that took place in 2009 - no small measure.
"A range of fisheries management measures have been implemented over the past decade to substantially reduce harvest pressure on Chinook Salmon stocks. As an example, the renegotiated Pacific Salmon Treaty terms were put into effect January 1, 2009, and included the implementation of a 30% reduction in the Total Allowable Catch (TAC) for the West Coast Vancouver Island Aggregate Abundance Based Management (AABM) fisheries, with a 15% reduction in the Southeast Alaska AAMB fishery. Additional measures have also been implemented annually in Canada to reduce harvest pressure on important Chinook Salmon populations with specific measures identified in the Salmon IFMPs. In particular, a range of management measures have been implemented to address conservation objectives for Fraser River origin chinook may also benefit SRKW diets in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Conservation measures for these populations over the last 10 years have included substantially reduced exploitation rates on Fraser Spring (age-4) and Spring/Summer (age-5) chinook designed to allow more wild Chinook to reach spawning areas. While these measures have decreased exploitation rates to well below historic sustainable levels, there has not been rapid recovery for many Chinook Salmon populations, suggesting that other factors are also contributing to on-going low productivity. These populations exhibit an offshore migration pattern and appear to return to Fraser primarily through the Strait of Juan de Fuca in spring and early summer months."
The total Chinook catch in the 2017 WCVI AABM fishery was estimated to be 46,705, which is down 15% from the 5 year average of 55,000. The total Chinook released in the 2017 WCVI AABM fishery was estimated to be 33,289, which is down 30% from the 5 year average of 47,900. Effort in the AABM area for 2017 was 26,579 boat trips, which is down about 5% from 2016. Please see Figure 6-1 below which illustrates catch and effort from 1995 through 2017. Figure 6-1 WCVI Recreational AABM Catch and Effort- Chinook, 1995-2017
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GLG
Well-Known Member
So Ian, in the video, and you agree that the whales are not affected by a lack of salmon but yet 1/2 of your solutions are to increase the amount of salmon. Do you not see the inconsistency of such an argument? You can bet the the general public will pick that up also.
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searun
Well-Known Member
You are taking my comments out of context...read carefully please - I'm suggesting we need to increase Chinook abundance and prey availability - that has already been well documented scientifically and to me is obvious therefore does not need to be restated...but I'm also making the point (as does Ian) that food abundance is not the only reason behind SRKW decline. Pollution and the impacts to whale health are also a major factor that many are not addressing - the uncomfortable reality is pumping raw sewage into the environment has unpleasant consequences within the food chain.
Many are also missing the facts that during the summer months there are plenty of fish available in various areas, but these whales (SRKW) do not use that habitat. LaPerouse is one of those areas they simply do not use - again Ian's point. People are confusing the facts with the politics of the proposed expansion of this critical habitat proposal.
Minister fires back at groups for suing over killer whales
Lindsay Kines / Times ColonistSeptember 9, 2018
https://www.timescolonist.com/news/...roups-for-suing-over-killer-whales-1.23425377
Lindsay Kines / Times ColonistSeptember 9, 2018
https://www.timescolonist.com/news/...roups-for-suing-over-killer-whales-1.23425377
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
Despite my general disdain for the envior groups that are suing one can hardy place blame on them for the action they are taking.
They recognize that the government process will get dragged out and even possible into an election cycle. the government delay and inaction is something that everyone has found very frustrating on numerous issues.
The laws they plan to use:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/S-15.3/page-10.html#h-22
The science they intend to use:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14471-0
Evaluating anthropogenic threats to endangered killer whales to inform effective recovery plans
fish brain
Crew Member
Searun your posts are thoughtful and well laid out. You often provide statistics like in the above post. Could you please provide links to them? I am collecting information for my letter to DFO and the minister, and would like to provide references to include in my letter. I believe letters filled with facts and references from reputable sources are more likely to take anecdotal evidence provided with them as more credible. Unfortunately the terms I am using in my searches only turn up older documents.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
I think see what CLG is saying here because I have noticed a bit of a 'shift' myself. I have noticed a bit of a shift in what our sport/industry are emphasizing are the causes of the decline in SRKW. I don't have a problem with that because there is always a process to reaching conclusions. As we gain more information, the causes of any problem become more focused and the eventual result is a more accurate conclusion. Ian does state that there are plenty of Chinook available for SRKW to eat - he goes on to state that SRKW are becoming sick [like a human having the flu] so the SRKW won't eat when they are sick. Not eating = malnourishment . Ian seems to be emphasizing that sewage pollution and vessel harassment ( earlier captures/inbreeding as well) are the main issues. Ian also states that SRKW being alpha predators would not starve themselves to death if they couldn't find Chinook. I liked his T-Bone steak vs Taco Bell analogy lol
So in conclusion to me ( and point me in the right direction searun if I have this incorrect) it seems that the sport fishing industry's stance with regards to causes of the SRKW decline has shifted away from the idea that lack of Chinook is the problem ( and according to Ian, it seems not even part of the problem)
california
Well-Known Member
I don't believe the Sport fishing industry has moved to a position that there are plenty of Chinook as that is going against all of the available science but Ill let others from the advocacy groups answer it definitively. Anyone watching this video will certainly get that message however, and could easily assume, as you have, it is the industries position. That's why that type of rant is harmful overall. Its paints us all as Ians.
OldBlackDog
Well-Known Member
It is going to be about perception.
The greens use the science they like or makeup.
DFO is not much better.
The public believes what it is told in the news.
The public cares about the welfare of the whales, not much about fish or fishermen.
So again , perception is what counts.
If we the fisherman do not get out there with a message then it is over.
The greens use the science they like or makeup.
DFO is not much better.
The public believes what it is told in the news.
The public cares about the welfare of the whales, not much about fish or fishermen.
So again , perception is what counts.
If we the fisherman do not get out there with a message then it is over.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
I agree that we do have declining Chinook runs ("stocks of concern" ) in BC that obviously need protecting however I suggest that this doesn't mean that the overall numbers of Chinook ( food for SRKW) is way down. Those particular declining stocks and "stocks of concern" likely have no relationship as to why there is a decline of SRKW. Ian said that there are plenty enough Chinook for SRKW to eat - he also commented that his area has been just full of Chinook this year. I know some very experienced fishers involved in the sport fishing industry that would agree with that despite knowing there are declining Chinook "stocks of concern" in BC . One of them said there is more Chinook in lower Georgia Strait in the last 5 years than there has been in the previous 20 years ! I don't find that unrealistic as I have also found fishing for Chinook in lower Georgia Strait has been better the last few years DESPITE some BC stocks in trouble. Hence makes no sense to surmise then that SRKW are on the decline due to any lack of Chinook to eat. Size average is down though but I don't believe SRKW would starve themselves because their abundant food source was a little too small lol . A large portion of the Chinook we are catching is thanks to our friends down south pumping our waters with Chinook. Many of the Chinook in our waters are US bound fish and SRKW will be eating. US bound Chinook are likely part of the reason that Chinook fishing is being reported as better the last few years.
The REAL scientists (not to be confused with the armchair "scientists" all too common on this forum) go out on the water and gather scraps left-over by the SRKW's & via a vast DNA bank of Chinook samples fairly accurately determine what, where, & when the SRKW's eat.
What you or I believe doesn't mean whale poop, what matters is who has the most credible argument, which to the vast majority of the population means the most scientific data from multiple sources. For the SRKW issues, to me the evidence seems overwhelming.
What you or I believe doesn't mean whale poop, what matters is who has the most credible argument, which to the vast majority of the population means the most scientific data from multiple sources. For the SRKW issues, to me the evidence seems overwhelming.
california
Well-Known Member
ericl, don't go bringing science into this when everyone knows PhD stands for Pathetically hopeless Dweeb. The "observational science" by the accountants, middle managers, and shift supervisors on this forum is much more reliable.
Peahead
Well-Known Member
I will try to bring this back to my main reason for posting - See post #14, I am still attempting to find out from searun what the sport fishing industry's stance is on this so maybe I will PM him. I think Ian's video has some very good points ( the original topic of this thread) however I know some will say that it is just "observational science" and nobody will listen if it is not "real" science. What actually is "real" science ? Is it "real" if it has been tainted or ignored depending on a particular political agenda ? What if there hasn't been enough or any "real" science and yet decisions are rushed without the appropriate research? Is that still "real" science? eg. from searun's post above:
"Unfortunately this Critical Habitat designation is more about playing politics to appease the Greens than it is about making actual science based decisions aimed at really protecting whales and implementing strategies that will be most effective. The Green NGO's are pressuring DFO and the Minister to make rushed decisions based on flawed science advice. Read carefully the science advice that DFO is relying upon to designate Swiftsure and LaPerouse as Critical Habitat - you will see there is virtually NO actual scientific evidence offered"
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