Aquaculture; improving????

Thanks for the kind words. Still trying to understand the facts but so much noise! Wouldn't it be great if we all agreed on some starting point? Sadly, any of the industry supporters seem to get creamed with climate denier or ff denier labels. If FF's are as bad as they all say, I would think this would be easy to prove. But, whenever you ask for simple example of two rivers in reasonable proximity, one with a ff, the other without, and what difference was there in the salmon returns, there doesn't seem to be anything. I asked Dave and others for some info but they said none existed. None of this matters. We are supposed to take tiki torches and pitchforks and get rid of these evil things. Not buying it. BC is about to crash its economy. The forestry boys are in big trouble, Oil and gas dead, and real estate crashing - we are killing everything because we know what's best. NDP have us up the creek without a paddle.
Yes, if you would just become hypnotized from all the repeated anti industry propaganda these guys keep posting then you too would eventually hate half of your fellow Canadians who work within any resource based occupation!! That is what they are hoping for. Luckily you have not fallen into the trap like many good people have.

I have been led to believe for many years to hate the ff's or believe all the activities of civilization has caused the demise of the fish populations. I always had a tough time believing because the field facts did not match the story told by the anti ff articles. In fact the field evidence indicated something far greater then ff's causing the downward trend in salmon. I have posted up videos of the real world where high profile salmon streams which have poor salmon returns also have no supporting ecology being invertebrates. Now I would think that anyone with a couple brain cells to rub together would be able to understand that if insects cannot live in a stream that the water is not very suitable for salmon productivity either!! It is a match for salmon productivity thru out the province. Interestingly this missing ecology and salmon productivity trend doesn't match up with ff locations, logging sites or urban developments. Some streams in pristine watersheds are void of life yet streams in the middle of Victoria are crawling with ecology. Nobody seems to care at least not these anti's. They just keep pounding anti industry propaganda like they are a computer program.

Our economy is spiraling down all right. Thanks to the brainwashing from engo anti humanity activists. They have effectively been turning everyone against each other. Lets hope the majority of Canadians can come out of the trance and we vote in a diffrent govt.
 
https://changingmarkets.org/portfolio/fishing-the-feed/
http://changingmarkets.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CM-WEB-FINAL-FISHING-FOR-CATASTROPHE-2019-.pdf
Demand for farmed salmon is 'causing an ecological disaster'

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By David Leask @leaskyHT Chief Reporter, The Herald
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There is growing concern over the impact of growing demand for farmed salmon.

The seas of some of the world’s poorest nations are being plundered to feed an unsustainable global appetite for farmed salmon and prawns, according to a major report.

International investigators today allege that meal made from seafood illegally or unethically caught in the Gambia, Vietnam and India is ending up in fish farmed and sold in Scotland, Norway and, especially, China. Scottish producers vociferously deny the findings of the Netherlands-based Changing Markets Foundation, the body that last year exposed links between polluting Third World sweat shops and cheap high street fashion.

But the new report, titled Fishing For Catastrophe, casts new light on a booming market for fishmeal and fish oil (FMFO), often processed by Chinese-owned mills in developing countries.

#Changing Markets said UK supermarkets were selling farmed seafood fed with meal or oil from such unsustainable sources.

However, its report aimed most fire not on retailers or even fish farmers but on the body it claims both represents and regulates meal and oil makers, the IFFO, or Marine Ingredients Organisation.

The investigation sought to map the origins of fishmeal and oil in three countries from fish to fork.

The IFFO, it said, gave assurances of the sustainability of its supply chain but investigators allege its members were engaged in illegal or unsustainable fishing.

Natasha Hurley, of Changing Markets, said: “Shoppers across the UK are totally unaware the seafood they are buying has a dark secret.

“The boom in aquaculture to match the global demand for premium seafood products such as salmon is fuelling illegal and unsustainable fishing practices that are stripping the oceans bare.

“Climate change is already destabilising our food system and that’s being exacerbated by the FMFO industry, which will take anything and everything out of the ocean to meet demand from the growing aquaculture industry.”

Scottish fish farmers say they have been using less fishmeal to feed their salmon and trout. Changing Markets believes producers must refocus on plants or face their own ruin, and that of marine eco-systems.

Ms Hurley continued: “These practices are not only destroying vulnerable marine ecosystems, but are also causing huge social issues, as communities that have been reliant on the ocean for food for generations are having their livelihoods destroyed and their access to a vital source of protein undermined.”

Chef and writer Hugh FearnleyWhittingstall has backed the Changing Markets report.

He said: “I saw for myself while making my Fish Fight programmes that fishmeal for the aquaculture industry – producing UK supermarket favourites like prawns and salmon – is being sourced in a way that is devastating to the marine environment, and to the wild fish stocks that make up much of the feed.


“It’s increasingly clear that even products certified as sustainably produced are based on aquaculture that is sourcing fishmeal in deeply irresponsible ways. “The bottom line is we need to stop taking wild fish out of the ocean to feed farmed fish, before it’s too late.”

The Scottish Salmon Producers Organisation said its members got fish from reputable sources.

A spokesman said: “Companies providing feed for Scottish farm-raised salmon have confirmed none of them uses ingredients from the Gambia, Vietnam or India or from reef fishing – the main thrust of the criticism highlighted in the report.

“Any claim or suggestion that Scottish feed suppliers are sourcing from these fisheries would be wrong, misleading and inaccurate.

“Scotland’s feed suppliers will continue to ensure their ingredients are sourced from responsible and sustainable fisheries, allowing Scotland’s salmon farmers to achieve the best feed conversion ratios of any livestock, thus ensuring best use of marine resources.”

The IFFO says its certifying wing IFFO RS is an entirely separate legal entity and rejects criticism it is both judge and lobby for the industry.

Petter Martin Johannessen, IFFO director general, said “the majority of wild-caught fish is responsibly sourced” and that a third of fishmeal and fish oil came from by-products.

He added: “Fishmeal and fish oil produced from these resources are used to provide many times more volume of edible fish through aquaculture than are consumed as raw material.

“The small pelagic fish species that form the bulk of the fisheries dedicated to fishmeal and fish oil production are a highly productive, natural resource with no, or very limited, food markets.”
 
Ok - let me help with this one. You, Cuttlefish and AA have all conclusively proven that the FF die off was a lie. You have an anomaly map and your internet detective team has discovered the absolute truth. This had nothing to do with "Mortalities were caused by prolonged high seawater temperatures that created low oxygen conditions", instead it was a virus! Do you folks even read your old posts? Pretty sure what AA posted above is correct.

But Here are the other posts:

"Well, if you are hooked on trying to desperately trying to defend the industry and it's lies - 1st -off the die-off happened during the 1st week of September - so June wouldn't matter. And if they made it through those high temps in June (maybe by seeking cooler temps down 30+ feet) - then they would have easily made it through 11-13C.

So if it wasn't water temps - what did cause the die-off? Diseases? ISAv?

Maybe that's the real reason the PR experts that protect the industry wanted to shift the focus and change the narrative... and lie..." - AA

or how about this:

"Oh - did the dead salmon get tested for ISAv? - AA"

Your group decided that this was a cover up. Pretty sure it was a fish die off and the cause was as reported. Not sure how you get the "Aha moment that I am A Fish Farm guy". I am merely pointing out how there is a rush to judge and accuse without anymore than positive reinforcement from other internet posters. Sometimes, Fogged In, if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and walks like a duck - it is probably a duck.

PS: Support them having licenses suspended until they get it right - I am good with that.

PPS: Everyone keeps warning me that if I debate you gents I will get banned. I hope you are all okay with having a debate about these issues. I, for one, am looking to be educated to all of your concerns but it seems that you gents take this far more personally than I do. My "conspiracy" is that we are being played by a bunch of American non-profits who are creating profits for their citizens at the expense of ours.

Thanks for your help, Stephen. Just a few points of correction to your post above;
1. I never said the explanation provided for the die-off is a lie. I actually think that the cause of the die-off was As reported, considering the speed at which it happened and the number of fish/sites involved. I am sceptical though of explanations given without evidence ever since the collapse of the pens in Washington State a couple years ago was attributed to the eclipse by company spokesperson. I do believe investigators from the state debunked that explanation.
2. I offered a link to a SST anomaly map from an independent source with the intent to provide some clarity about how much the temperatures were above normal at the time. No, I do not intend to prove anything “conclusively”. Just another source of information. There were no temperature or DO data provided by the company or the province.
3. I am an individual in search of information and not a member of any group as you claim. I provide the information that I find in order to contribute to conversations on this forum in an honest and positive spirit. I have done so in the past including discussing Fishmyster’s issues with stream ph and I am okay with having a debate about these issues, I just don’t agree with your “conspiracy” theory that I am being played by a bunch of American non-profits.
 
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As far as I am concerned, Cuttle - that's just a deflection tactic used by industry supporters to use when the discussion over accountability gets uncomfortable.
 
As far as I am concerned, Cuttle - that's just a deflection tactic used by industry supporters to use when the discussion over accountability gets uncomfortable.
Not a deflection tactic. Again - not a fish farmer. But, you asserted they lied. Not me. So why not just say something smelled fishy, no pun intended, but looks like the reported die off is as broadcasted. Man, you folks are jumping up and down about your own stuff. Then you decide somehow I am covertly working for FF industry. If you must know the truth, I am blowing out my irrigation system in the Okanagan. I own six acres of land and you are all welcome to come visit my broadcasting propaganda head quarters.
 
Thanks for your help, Stephen. Just a few points of correction to your post above;
1. I never said the explanation provided for the die-off is a lie. I actually think that the cause of the die-off was As reported, considering the speed at which it happened and the number of fish/sites involved. I am sceptical though of explanations given without evidence ever since the collapse of the pens in Washington State a couple years ago was attributed to the eclipse by company spokesperson. I do believe investigators from the state debunked that explanation.
2. I offered a link to a SST anomaly map from an independent source with the intent to provide some clarity about how much the temperatures were above normal at the time. No, I do not intend to prove anything “conclusively”. Just another source of information. There were no temperature or DO data provided by the company or the province.
3. I am an individual in search of information and not a member of any group as you claim. I provide the information that I find in order to contribute to conversations on this forum in an honest and positive spirit. I have done so in the past including discussing Fishmyster’s issues with stream ph and I am okay with having a debate about these issues, I just don’t agree with your “conspiracy” theory that I am being played by a bunch of American non-profits.
 
Fair enough. I grouped you with the Kremlin. And, you are probably right in that the US isn't playing you, but as I said, it is my tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.
 
Cooke has an unfortunate long history of lying, Stephen. Been some pretty glaring and illegal examples of that.

How hard would it have been for them to post the DO data?

How hard would it of been for them to be honest about the die-off to begin with? By law - they were supposed to report within 24 hours - and they didn't.

And they lied about poisoning & killing lobsters in NB. Big court case over that one.

And it was the eclipse - yes - the eclipse that caused their cages to break apart in Washington State - as far as their initial public statements.

It shouldn't be difficult to see where the disbelief in what they say started from Stephen - from their own lack of honesty & respect. It's a pattern.

Most people posting & reading on here are fishermen & fisherwomen. There should be an associated skill set of being able to recognize and take advantage of patterns if one is a reasonably successful & experienced fisherperson.

It would be reasonable and moreover responsible to recognize those patterns and go to third-party monitoring verses self-reporting for this industry. Justice Cohen also saw this.

I can't understand why anyone would defend these incidents instead of being professional & responsible.
 
Cooke has an unfortunate long history of lying, Stephen. Been some pretty glaring and illegal examples of that.

How hard would it have been for them to post the DO data?

How hard would it of been for them to be honest about the die-off to begin with? By law - they were supposed to report within 24 hours - and they didn't.

And they lied about poisoning & killing lobsters in NB. Big court case over that one.

And it was the eclipse - yes - the eclipse that caused their cages to break apart in Washington State - as far as their initial public statements.

It shouldn't be difficult to see where the disbelief in what they say started from Stephen - from their own lack of honesty & respect. It's a pattern.

Most people posting & reading on here are fishermen & fisherwomen. There should be an associated skill set of being able to recognize and take advantage of patterns if one is a reasonably successful & experienced fisherperson.

It would be reasonable and moreover responsible to recognize those patterns and go to third-party monitoring verses self-reporting for this industry. Justice Cohen also saw this.

I can't understand why anyone would defend these incidents instead of being professional & responsible.
Well, okay if that is the way you work. I think if FF's screw up, we deal with the screw up. We don't need to pile on accusations that are nothing more than conjecture. A past sin of another industry player isn't evidence of more the same or widespread corruption. That isn't being unprofessional, that is being cautious. Not everything is as we always see it or want it to be. Look Agent, I have no adgenda other than we get things right. Sick of seeing wasted money resources and time over virtue signals. Btw, everyone posts way to many links. I swear that this is the real deflection.
 
I am certain Stephen is an old friend of ours from days past on this forum. Reincarnated.

Hmmm
The definition on Reincarnation is...
"From Buddhism, we learn that the stream of consciousness reincarnates generally between 49 days and two years after death."
 
I'm not seeing responsible and effective enforcement and monitoring as "wasted money resources", Stephen. I'm also not seeing self-reporting as a responsible and effective substitute, neither. The only people I would expect to have that perspective would be industry lobbyists.

The commercial fishery has 3rd party observers - as well as the C&P branch of DFO.

The open net-cage industry has self-reporting - and a federal and/or provincial department that has been corrupted into also promoting the industry. Kind of bizarre. Kind of irresponsible, IMHO. Kinda ineffective.

The major unintended release of Atlantic salmon due to lack of appropriate maintenance and lack of accountability was more than conjecture.

The unintended killing of lobsters in lobsters pounds adjacent to their operations and unseen crustaceans adjacent to their operations in NB due to their illegal use and cover-up was more than conjecture - and also illegal.

The latest mass die-off was more than conjecture - and I also don't believe (from the available information) that warm water temperatures were the culprit. And you still haven't admitted that they could have shared their water temp/DO data - to support that assertion - if it were true.

The fact that they refused to publicly admit the problem until weeks afterwards was more than conjecture - and also illegal.

I think the only conjecture I see is the erroneous, unsupported assumption that we should explicitly trust everything this company tells the public - even given the unfortunate history of this company. "Nothing to see here, folks - move along" has been the mantra from the industry for years. Not buying it.

Norway - home of the FFs - doesn't buy it neither. They yank your licence for good for stuff that Cooke gets away with in Canada (In the event of gross or repeated contravention of the provisions prescribed in or pursuant to this Act.):
http://www.fao.org/fishery/legalframework/nalo_norway/en
 
Maybe you'd like to apologise, dave?
 
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I cant get it to play the right segment on the forum - not sure why. Thats ok - it'll break in the next day or so...
 
Looks like you got this one right aa, good on you. Lets wait and see if ISAv as the reason, or if environmental conditions played the larger part. If it was ISAV, wait for the outcry about the compensation.
 
Go to the 32 minute mark

Thanks, ISAV was detected at 2 sites and they harvested all the fish in thoes pen adding up to a total of 100k fish.

Did the 2 million other fish die from ISAV, I guess will find out tomorrow
 
Looks like you got this one right aa, good on you. Lets wait and see if ISAv as the reason, or if environmental conditions played the larger part. If it was ISAV, wait for the outcry about the compensation.
Thanks, Dave. I thought the "hidden conspiracy suggested by our boogey man hunter, aa." comment was a little over the top - dismissive and belittling - and incorrect as it proves out - while the focus should of stayed on the issues. It takes a big man to admit he was wrong. I wish to credit you for having the personal integrity to do so. That's big one for me. Good on you.

Here's some more info on the escapees - which not only can breed w the local Atlantic stocks - but are also likely ISAv carriers:

http://ntv.ca/aquaculture-reform-gr...gl6-0xpTt5MSFRqBl905C-XVpCnt-XB6NR5G7Hf2dAp-M
 
Farming Atlantic salmon in the east is not good for a host of reason.

Just like farming pacific salmon on this coast would be and something I’m against.

Having fish farms on land is the safest approach there is no debating that.

What I find personally frustrating is the amount of weighting some here put on salmon farms and there responsibility in causing salmon stocks to crash. Also I find frustrating the anti fish farming Lobby tends to attack farms more then other issues salmon face.

A developer can completely build right over a salmon stream killing it for ever and no seems to care. Cities can extract Rock form salmon beds and it barley makes the news. A contractor can leak cement and silt in to a stream where salmon are spawning and is business as normal.

The type of over-site lacking in fish farms is also the type of over-site lacking in all these other issues.
 
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