Kinder Morgan goes rogue, proving it can’t be trusted

Discussion in 'Conservation, Fishery Politics and Management.' started by agentaqua, Oct 6, 2017.

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  1. agentaqua

    agentaqua Well-Known Member

  2. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    The relevant article of Certificate OC-064 reads, in part:
    "43(c):site-specific information for each watercourse crossing where any of Fisheries and Oceans Canada’s applicable“Measures to Avoid Causing Harm to Fish and Fish Habitat” cannot be implemented for the primary pipeline construction method:
    i) detailed crossing-specific design drawings;
    ii) photographs up-stream, down-stream, and at the crossing location;
    iii) a description of the fish species and habitat that is present at the crossing location, and if fish spawning is likely to occur within the immediate area;"

    Fish spawning areas have been identified, hence KM Canada has leave to mitigate the requirement.
    Any duration that NEB stalls KM's applicable activity, as is required by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, actually prevents KM"s ability to 'implement' pre-construction requirements.
    NEB 'blowing against the wind'?
    Greenpeace Canada comments = 'broken record', contrived & never factual!
  3. agentaqua

    agentaqua Well-Known Member

    From your cut and paste of Certificate OC-064 - I read that they are looking for info.

    from what the article says - they went ahead and did instream work w/o any approvals/permits.

    I am unsure of how preventing salmon from spawning (esp. where spawning habitat could be limited) is "mitigating" impacts???
  4. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    Good question on the salmon spawning. I wondered the same thing. I spoke to someone who is more knowledgeable in that area & he said that that as per regulations they have to insure that the fish do not spawn on an area that will be having a crossing. They don't want the eggs to be disturbed in anyway once they are layed. That said it is a temporary measure where they will aly down mats over a ~10m wide spot on the river that will prevent the fish from dropping there eggs in that location. Once work is done they are removed & the temporary work space is available for fish again.

    No keep in mind that no one is actually digging a trench in the river. They actually bore under the river & the river bed is never disturbed. This is a preventative measure & part of due diligence. Lastly, they may make temporary bridges across rivers in order to move equipment. In those cases it is crucial that none of the river bed be impacted & work is done to insure its never in a spawning area.

    The only reason I am bringing this up is because the news feeds now days are at times questionable. This one however is correct that work was done & the NEB did in fact ask them to stop. In fact technically they didn't do anything wrong & were following the rules as they are written & following request as per a governing bodies request. What you don't hear about is that it is the DFO who is wanting this pre construction work done as per the stipulations of approval. This work needs to be done within a small window of opportunity.

    Its another case of 2 different governing bodies not talking or understanding who's in charge of what.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the DFO is intentionally trying to cause delays so that they can impact the schedule for work & help put another nail in the coffin for a pipeline project. That is exactly what they did with Energy East. After years of review they suddenly want to measure the impacts of upstream & Down stream carbon... Even though the oil sent East would replace imported oil...
  5. agentaqua

    agentaqua Well-Known Member

    Great reply, I Love Haida Gwaii. Well, there never used to be any question of whose responsibility was for instream (verses streamside) work prior to Harper. It was ALWAYS DFO and certainly not NEB. Not sure what - if anything - has changed there.

    If they put the mats where there was suitable spawning habitat for a particular species before that species spawned - and there was limited suitable spawning habitat elsewhere in that stream - that would potentially cause unsuccessful spawning to happen - or even to fail.

    You would need to look at the whole stream and the timing beforehand - something I would bet the NEB has no jurisdiction over - nor possibly any interest in. If it happened in a stream with stocks at a low population number - it could have serious negative effects. That would sure as h*ll *NOT* be "mitigating" impacts...
  6. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    Agree 100% Agentaqua. In my view this just opened up the problem with this whole process. The NEB has no right dictating anything to do with what should be the DFO. The DFO needs to be the ones who dictate when & where the preventative measures are in place & when it happens..

    That whole pipeline is such a Fuc4ing mess. If Canada could only have one pipeline, why not the Energy East? Now that all the chips have landed & one can now see the Governments game plan they had the whole time it seems very obvious what the plan was.

    It was never about what was best for Canada. Its about what votes they want to hang onto. Keep Quebec happy & you have a majority government. Now instead of tensions between Easter & Western Canada, we will have tensions between 2 western provinces each trying to do what they fell is best for the people who live there.

    Eastern Canada imports close to 1 million barrels of foreign oil each day to the eastern refineries. Every time that happens money leaves this country & supports some other dictatorship with NO ENVIROMENTAL STANDARDS.

    Nothing the last 2 governments have done have been about what's best for Canada or the Environment. Its just a giant smoke & mirror show while insuring the "important & valuable seats" are not lost in parliament.

    The only options now are Trans Mountain & its about to turn into a giant shit show. I wont get caught up in defending any position because nothing good could come from it. People on each side are passionate about how they feel & wont be swayed. As long as we are distracted fighting each other then we wont notice fancy sock boy giving away our future & kids future in the name of reconciliation, woman rights & climate change... Our government wont care because it wont affect them at all. They will still get a ton of Votes from the millennial's in both Alberta & BC because he is cool & made weed legal... Those votes combined with Quebec & a portion of Ontario & he is in term #2.
  7. GLG

    GLG Well-Known Member

    Energy East was always about export. There is no heavy oil refining ability over there to make Canada self sufficient with that. Energy East would struggle to make a buck with Keystone now on track. TransCanada Pipeline probably would rather have 1 pipeline that's profitable than 2 that are losing money.

    The way I see forward is Keystone unless one want's to get into a big fight, Canadian against Canadian. Not something I'm looking forward to but if I must......
  8. nicnat

    nicnat Active Member

    the whole trans mountain pipeline fight is a mugs game with a lot of very misinformed people against it. even if it does get cancelled , most of that extra oil will make it to the burnaby export terminal regardless, and some of it already is. rail is in place and in use and if those against the pipeline think that oil laden rail cars snaking their way down the thompson and fraser rivers is safer than the pipeline expansion they have more than shit for brains imho. why do you think they are expanding the marine facility before the pipeline is built???? cenovus purchased a huge oil by rail facility in bruderheim from canexus for a song a couple of years ago, infrastructure is in place , rails are in place, the export facilty is expanding. pipeline or not, more oil WILL be shipped thru vancouver. I live across the water from the terminals and watch tankers get safely loaded continually. now I am watching in the news a bunch of misinformed people try to kill this pipeline expansion and create a much more dangerous situation with the oil by rail. it boggles the mind. in a perfect world and maybe sometime in the not so distant future we won't need oil or need to ship it, renewables are doing their thing and I'm all for it but we have a ways to go before we can kill all pipelines in canada. in the meantime the yanks fund the loonies here killing our pipelines and ensure that yanks buy our oil for much less than world prices and sell theirs at world prices. now isn't that just peachy!!!
    ILHG likes this.
  9. GLG

    GLG Well-Known Member

    If we have been shipping this dilbit for some time now, how much has it been selling for then?
  10. terrin

    terrin Well-Known Member

    Four points in your post i will comment on. 1) a couple of cars with the newer technology in a derailment is less dangerous than a pipeline spill and although we do not agree i'm not saying you have shit for brains. 2) they are not talking about shipping oil its RAW BITUMEN they want to ship. 3) I live on the same side as the terminal and my brother in West Van and they want to increase from five a month to 34 a month almost a 700 % increase in tankers carrying this dangerous cargo so its just mathimatically going to speed up the event where there is a disasterous spill in the inlet. 4) The arguement about yanks buying our oil for much less doesn't make any sence as this is an unrefined product at its lowest economical value and benefit to Canadians and should at the very least be refined at source to maximize value for Canadians and if shipped extremely reduce its catastrophic impact on the environment when there is a spill. The last I heard there is no technology available to clean up a Raw Bitumen spill.
  11. Birdbrain

    Birdbrain Member

    Actually, the Harper pro-corporation/anti-science government gave the NEB authority over DFO, when it comes to fisheries-oil matters. The NEB is in charge. There is no misunderstanding. The NEB may, or may not, ask DFO for assistance. They decide. Nice, eh? The NEB, staffed 90% by powerful people in the energy business, has the power to make decisions on scientific matters, which they have no training for. This authority was granted in a "memorandum of understanding" in Dec. 2013. Here are its openning lines:

    "The NEB and DFO have entered into a MOU regarding fish and fish habitat. Through this MOU, the NEB will now be responsible for assessing potential impacts to fisheries from proposed NEB regulated pipeline and power line applications.

    Applications submitted to the NEB shall be reviewed under the Fisheries Protection Provisions of the Fisheries Act to determine if impacts shall occur, and if an authorization will be required under the Fisheries Act. The NEB shall also become responsible to determine if proposed projects will impact aquatic species at risk and require permitting under the Species at Risk Act. If the NEB determines than an authorization or permit will be required, DFO shall be notified and will be responsible for issuing the authorization or permit."

    It's right here:

    By the way, only a few weeks after that dismissal of scientific expertise, Harper closed most of DFO's fisheries libraries, and destroyed many, many scientific papers, many of which held not just Canadian, but global importance.
    Read about it here:

    As far as I know, the Trudeau government hasn't cancelled that 2013 MOU between the NEB and DFO. If anyone knows they have, please post it! We could use some good news right about now.
    bigdogeh likes this.
  12. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    Once it hits tide water it sells at the world "North Sea Brent" price. Roughly ~$54/bbl USD. The same oil sent down south is priced at a deduct "Western Canadian Select" at $~39/bbl USD

    When government collect royalties they collect it as product at sales. This is why Canada losses out on ~$30Million/d in lost revenue.

    The Yanks played Canada like fools & made them our only customer. They set the price and better believe are doing everything they can to keep it that way. A new order for 90,000 rail cars is in the works

    Trust me, the stats above are real. I do this for a living
    chromatose007 and nicnat like this.
  13. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    Honestly, no one can ship raw bitumen. It needs to be upgraded prior, which it always is. It has a viscosity of over 10,000 cp.

    Lastly yes the Yanks do buy it at a discount. When I'm back at the office Tuesday I will gladly supply all the back up needed.

    I do this for a living & confirm it 100%. I'm not using it as a means to convince folks to change their minds. I only want to educate. Right now pepole are bombarded with false data from different lobbying groups
    chromatose007, ziggy and nicnat like this.
  14. terrin

    terrin Well-Known Member

  15. terrin

    terrin Well-Known Member

    It is RAW BITUMEN only diluted with dilbit so it can flow through the pipes which is cannot be said to be upgraded. The Raw Bitumen in rail cars is not diluted with dilbit and therefore in my opinion only probably a lot easier to clean up when it spills as it is pretty thick. If we refined it then the Yanks wouldn't care what they were putting in their cars our gasoline or theirs and us Canadians would get the full value. Why is that so complicated?
  16. GLG

    GLG Well-Known Member

    Dilbit is not WCS, it's close but is missing the synbit or light conventional and WCS is not the equivalent to Brent so you can not say that Dilbit will sell for ~$54/bbl US. at tidewater. If anything dilbit could be compared to a lesser replacement to Myan or Venezuelan and those two are closer to WCS. Like I said it would be interesting to find out what the price was for shipments that have taken place.
  17. GLG

    GLG Well-Known Member

    Dilbit is diluted bitumen. I think it's 66% bitumen and 33% condensate. Condensate (naphtha) is a byproduct from some natgas fields. It's the "wet" part of the product that flows from the well and is removed at the gas plant. BC is a major source for condensate and we supply it to Alberta.
  18. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    I can and will say that WCS will & dose get Brent pricing.. 100% it will & dose.

    Gents if you don't know, don't comment on it.

    Agian.... this is what I do for a living...

    Argentina & Kasastan both have the same oil & sell on world markets for Brent.

    I have personally seen marketing contracts for "WCS" selling for Brent.

    That is why it's so important to get to ride water
    cracked_ribs likes this.
  19. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    Ok.... whatvyou are referring to is "Canadian Synthetic Crude". That currently sells for ~ $47/bbl USD. It's the upgraded WCS blended heavily with condensate and low in sulpur.

    Dilbit, is not even a real product that ever goes to sale. It has to be at sales spec.

    The main factor that sets grades is sulpur content
  20. ILHG

    ILHG Well-Known Member

    The raw Bitumen can never be shipped in it's form even in rail cars. It must be super heated or blended with Condy.

    Honestly guys
    chromatose007 likes this.
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