airmar 50/200 cone angles

[SteelyDan]

Hey guys wondering if some of the members that have a bit more experience with transducers than me could chime in here. Which of the Airmar in hull (drill hole) transducers has the widest cone angles in 50/200 for cannonball tracking? I tried a p79 and its getting good returns but I cannot pick up my cannonballs on the screen at a decent trolling speed. This is for an HDS gen2 touch

thanks

 

[Hookin'up]

Look at the airmar ss264w pairs if your looking to see everything and nuke a few fish at the same time,
wish I had of went that route instead of the m260 wich does track my balls to around 100' or so

 

[SteelyDan]

Those look sweet but I don't think I would benefit from a 1kW transducer because as far as I know the hds7 gen2 is only 500w rms power. Those cone angles on the ss264w are 25 degree? I think something might be wrong with my install because I just looked up the p79 cone angle and apparently on 50khz it has a 45 degree cone and I would think that I should see my cannon balls at that angle??? I set it at 22.5 degrees with the boat level and it showed level across the top of the transducer with a torpeedo when it was finished.

 

[SteelyDan]

Can anyone else running a p79 on an hds track their cannonballs?

 

[profisher]

The wider you go the more power you need to get good definition on individual targets. Think of it as speakers trying to pound out music and fill a large room with great sound. You need big speakers and lots of power. If you want to just fill the front of the room, less speaker and less power will work.

 

[Sharphooks]

Not sure you should be using the term "in hull" and "drill hole" in the same sentence. An in hull, like the P79, is a true in-hull --- it shoots through the floor of your boat. If you're going to drill a hole, that's a through-hull, flush mount, or pocket mount. In each of those cases, there is water going across the face of the transducer

The p79 is a good transducer and I believe that it does have a 45 degree viewing cone similar to the P66 (transom mount) but most guys who are in the sonar business will tell you that in-hulls are completely inferior to transom mounts and through-hulls simply because the frequency pulses are attenuated both going to the target and coming back to the receiver.

A Furuno guy told me you could expect to lose up to 25% of the target marking power, depending on bottom config of your boat. I had a P79 in the PERFECT boat for an in-hull-- just a thin skin of fiberglass, totally flat bottom

But the picture I got (target detection, target differentiation) was FAR superior when I hooked up my P66 (transom mount)

From there I went to 1kw and there was no looking back

Another benefit of a transom mount-- you can tilt it to better track downrigger gear-- not so easy to do with an in hull transducer like a P79

 

[SteelyDan]

Well i know there is "shoot through hull" and "in hull" like the ones Tim suggested. I have no option for mounting a transom mount because there is no clean water on my transom available. Between the pod eating up space and my massive trim tabs there just isnt anywherw to mount. At slower trolling speeds like 2.2mph i can get cannonballs on my screen but at faster speeds with greater downrigger angles i lose them with the p79. Might have to go with another b60 im thinking or just stick witj what ive got.

 

[Hookin'up]

Those look sweet but I don't think I would benefit from a 1kW transducer because as far as I know the hds7 gen2 is only 500w rms power. Those cone angles on the ss264w are 25 degree? I think something might be wrong with my install because I just looked up the p79 cone angle and apparently on 50khz it has a 45 degree cone and I would think that I should see my cannon balls at that angle??? I set it at 22.5 degrees with the boat level and it showed level across the top of the transducer with a torpeedo when it was finished.

Your HDS gen2 touch will drive a 1kw ducer with no problem
I use the same with a M260 1KW with no issue at all,
give Mike perkins a call he can explain it for you, search his name here for contact info

 

[Sr SQ]

You will see good gains moving up to a 1kw ducer with any sounder regardless of its output power.
Output power is only a small percentage of the equation, the ducers Q factor or sensitivity is of far greater importance.
The 264w pair that Hookin'up suggested is about the best transducer set made for our application of D/R trolling.
I run the M270W thats the same ducer elements as the 264W but all mounted in a single frame thats mounted in a tank.

 

[Sentinel]

I just upgraded my electronics and was planning on a ss264w pair but was miffed to discover airmar no longer makes then wide models. To get that 25° cone angle I had to go with a chirp black box sounder and a SS175C- HW transducer. I am very pleased with the results but what I found is once below 60' or so the cannonball still gets out of the cone angle. The target discrimination and resolution is superb though

 

[Fishin'Zinn]

Definitely the new SS175-HW or bronze Version if you have a glass boat. Literally perfect for Salmon/hali fishing.

Well if you have a chirp sounder. That is...

I have a B75W (Isolated on the transom), wish that one was out at the time I would have bucked up for it for better cone and resolution.

 

[Sharphooks]

For most of my salmon fishing career I've never found the need to use heavy DR balls and always stuck to 8 lb balls, only occasionally going to 10 lb balls for winter spring fishing

This year I bumped up to 15 lb balls and stripped off my braid and I'm using stainless cable

IMMEDIATE results with improved tracking of gear under my boat, even when the tide is running

Some screen shots with what produced them:

Bombing a ledge with a plug~cut herring and a 15 lb ball (Furuno Tzt + DDF1-UHD+ B175W-H)



Skimming the top of a bait ball with a plug-cut herring

left Picture- Furuno 587 + SS264W 50 kHz
right picture- Furuno 587 + SS264W 200 kHz







Gear dropping directly under the boat (probably during a slack tide based on the signal strength)

Furuno 587 with the pair of SS264W's

However, You can really see the difference in target strength between the 50 kHz (right) and the 200 Khz (left)

Part of the reason the 50 kHz returns are so STRONG-- I mounted that transducer directly under my downrigger in a port sponson. The DR balls basically head down towards the bottom in the direct center of a 25 degree beam

The 200 kHz is mounted centerline of the boat, probably five feet away from the downrigger-~~ even a 25 degree coverage beam sometimes doesn't capture the gear, especially during a boomer tide change

If you look carefully at the 50 kHz target returns you can clearly see the tail-roll of the plug~cut---- that is music to my ears when I see my gear doing what it's supposed to do



getting that plug-cut just above and just below the bait balls

Furuno TzT + DFF1-UHD + B175W-H

(You can see how much "cleaner" the targets are with the CHIRP transducer compared to the pair of SS264W's (a series of pulse bursts at a discrete frequency <50 and 200> compared to CHIRP's continuous sweep within a range of multiple frequencies.

The B175W-H sweeps between 150 - 250 kHz--- higher frequency = better target differentiation but less depth penetration. I start to lose the bottom signal at 260 M with the CHIRP



As a bait guy, it's HUGELY valuable to me to make sure I have a good spin going on with my herring whenever it's under my boat

The 1 kW transducer, if mounted properly, will help promote that information

The 15 lb ball will deliver it to your eye balls even at depth

 

[Oly1]

thanks for the very informative and descriptive post. It was very helpful in seeing the difference between the transducers. That was awesome seeing the tailspin of your herring. That should almost tell you when the salmon that is following opens his mouth to eat your bait. LOL

 

[tykkyt e blue]

It is not necessarily the transducer con angle that lets you see the cannonballs. Bec the dr line hangs back from the speed of trolling, the balls are always behind the boat - how much depends on many factors.
Usually the angle of an inhull transducer is parallel to the hull bottom..but most boats don't sit flat at trolling speeds. So your transducer 'points' forward and looks at the water column infront of where the dr weights hang.
I have transom transducers - I can see the dr balls anytime I change the transducer angle. But for best bottom tracking at planning speed, I aim mine slightly forward and live without 'seeing' the dr balls.
I don't know your boat specifics, but slight wedge rings to tilt trans rearward a bit could put dr balls into the transducer cone.

 

[SteelyDan]

Thanks for the informative posts guys, Sharphooks that is just plain baddass right there!

After some thought I might just go with a LOWRANCE BRONZE HDI 20 DEGREE TRANSDUCER 50/200 455/800. Its 600W and I get the DSI with it. The angles are decent. Here are the specs and a link http://www.boemarine.com/lowrance-bronze-hdi-20-tilt-transducer-50-200-455-800/

Operating Frequency 50kHz
Max Depth: 3,000'
Beam(-3dB): 45°


Operating Frequency 200kHz
Max Depth: 1,000'
Beam(-3dB):11°

Operating Frequency 455kHz
Max Depth:300'
Coverage(-3dB) Fore/Aft:3°
Coverage (-3dB) Port/Starboard: 55°


Operating Frequency 800kHz
Max Depth:100'
Coverage(-3dB) Fore/Aft:1.5°
Coverage (-3dB) Port/Starboard: 30°

 

[SteelyDan]

I believe I just had an epiphany. My main concern is viewing my cannon balls and tracking my gear while trolling, so If I mount a b60 12 degree tilted element transducer on my port side trim tab with the element aimed behind the boat I will be able to without any doubt track my gear. The 12 degree element will be installed with the installation arrow that normally points to the keel aimed to the rear. I will also in theory even be able to aim the cone by adjusting my tabs to track gear at any depth. I think I am going to go for it. Anyone try this?

 

[wildthing]

steelyDan
wont work
beam still wants a straight shot up and down

fire the beam on an angle and it wont get a good or will equal a poor return
giving poor results on the screen

airmar have a pdf file showing how to setup a transducer for proper angle



talk to mike perkins his number is on a thread here on the forum
for good advise as what way to go

 

[tykkyt e blue]

Umm - sorry - it will work just fine - I have done it many times.
You can not tilt the face of the transducer more than half the degrees of cone angle - eg 20 degree cone can not be tilted more than 10 ( practically speaking you only need 5-6 degrees of rear tilt to see DR weights )
IF you still want to get a return off the bottom - BUT for tracking DR balls - it works just fine ( in fact, the return gets stronger off the ball the more you aim at it )

 

[bigbruce]

OK, help me out here. Why do you want to see your balls?

 

[wildthing]

so here is a few links from airmar site

http://faq.airmar.com/index.php?sid=2228008&lang=en&action=artikel&cat=1&id=215&artlang=en

http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/brochures/AIRMAR Transducer Guide 2009.pdf

http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/InstallGuide/17-299-02.pdf

think this should help