Things are not as they should be in Alaska
- Thread starter Cuba Libre
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Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
The low rain ph was a global issue. There streams are suffering the same issues as ours. My thoughts.
Fishmyster, you are a resilient poster! kudos to you 
Seems the scientist I forwarded your research to didn't seem very interested; that surprised me as I personally think your information has some traction and needs much more research.
Agent aqua offered some excellent advice a few posts ago as to how you may pursue this further ... I suggest, and hope, you follow his ideas.
Seems the scientist I forwarded your research to didn't seem very interested; that surprised me as I personally think your information has some traction and needs much more research.
Agent aqua offered some excellent advice a few posts ago as to how you may pursue this further ... I suggest, and hope, you follow his ideas.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Fishmyster, you are a resilient poster! kudos to you
Seems the scientist I forwarded your research to didn't seem very interested; that surprised me as I personally think your information has some traction and needs much more research.
Agent aqua offered some excellent advice a few posts ago as to how you may pursue this further ... I suggest, and hope, you follow his ideas.
Thanks Dave.
I must admit I am more the guy in the field who studies this as a hobby rather than a publisher of science papers. There is lots of already published studies explaining the effects of changing ph and water chemistry sample records to prove this has all happened in our waters but those have shrugged off anyway. Why would I bother to do another report if all the existing information is being ignored. I am very comfortable with my scientific interpretation of what has caused the demise of our salmon populations. For the scientists and biologists that will not broaden their perspective by accepting all the information available, like water chemistry, it is their loss. It would be nice to find credible scientists who can think outside the box and have resources to research this as it seems I am the only person who has been. If acknowledged it would open up new innovative ways for enhancement. I have tried PSF, MOE, DFO, Rivers Institute and some other reputable people and nobody has been monitoring or shows interest in the changing rain chemistry and stream ecology. Sadly something so obvious continues to be overlooked.
On the positive side of things the rain ph was at 5.8 today. Good for coastal salmon streams but bad for some interior lakes which could use a good dose of acidic water to knock down the alkalinity a bit.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I googled Didymo algae in Alaska. Looks like the issues are the same there! More evidence acid shock. Ban the felt soles!!
Clint r
Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting article about ocean acidification. Copied from castanets news service.
The Canadian Press - Mar 15 2:34 pm
Scientists have found the world's first large-scale area of acidified water in the open ocean in the seas of the western Arctic.
"In other (oceans), you may have a small part with low pH, but the Arctic Ocean is the first one we have observed with a larger scale acidification," said Wei-Jun Cai of the University of Delaware, co-author of a paper recently published in the journal Nature Climate Change.
Ocean acidification is related to increasing levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Waters grow more acidic as they absorb gas from the air.
Previous research has suggested the Arctic Ocean is acidifying faster than any other ocean on Earth. Cai and his colleagues were able to map the rate of that change in the water of the Canada Basin by comparing data from the mid-1990s with that up to 2010.
The say the area of acidified water in the basin has expanded northwards as far as 85 degrees latitude. That's about 500 kilometres further north. The pool is also deeper. It's now found as low at 250 metres, an increase of 100 metres.
"That surprised everyone," said co-author Richard Feely of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. "But this builds up very, very quickly over time."
Feely said acidity in the area has increased twice as fast any other body of water that's been measured. The acidity is now six times what it was 20 years ago.
The scientists say the buildup is related to the disappearance of summer sea ice. The less ice cover, the longer water is exposed to the CO2-rich atmosphere and the more time there is to absorb the acidifying gas.
"During the summer melt time, the CO2 directly goes to sea water," Cai said.
The melt water sinks and picks up CO2 generated from organisms living adjacent to the continental shelf.
Currents in the atmosphere are also driving more water from the Pacific into the Canada Basin. The Pacific is generally more acidic than the Arctic, because it's more exposed to the atmosphere and CO2 generated by plants living in it.
The Canadian Press - Mar 15 2:34 pm
Scientists have found the world's first large-scale area of acidified water in the open ocean in the seas of the western Arctic.
"In other (oceans), you may have a small part with low pH, but the Arctic Ocean is the first one we have observed with a larger scale acidification," said Wei-Jun Cai of the University of Delaware, co-author of a paper recently published in the journal Nature Climate Change.
Ocean acidification is related to increasing levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Waters grow more acidic as they absorb gas from the air.
Previous research has suggested the Arctic Ocean is acidifying faster than any other ocean on Earth. Cai and his colleagues were able to map the rate of that change in the water of the Canada Basin by comparing data from the mid-1990s with that up to 2010.
The say the area of acidified water in the basin has expanded northwards as far as 85 degrees latitude. That's about 500 kilometres further north. The pool is also deeper. It's now found as low at 250 metres, an increase of 100 metres.
"That surprised everyone," said co-author Richard Feely of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. "But this builds up very, very quickly over time."
Feely said acidity in the area has increased twice as fast any other body of water that's been measured. The acidity is now six times what it was 20 years ago.
The scientists say the buildup is related to the disappearance of summer sea ice. The less ice cover, the longer water is exposed to the CO2-rich atmosphere and the more time there is to absorb the acidifying gas.
"During the summer melt time, the CO2 directly goes to sea water," Cai said.
The melt water sinks and picks up CO2 generated from organisms living adjacent to the continental shelf.
Currents in the atmosphere are also driving more water from the Pacific into the Canada Basin. The Pacific is generally more acidic than the Arctic, because it's more exposed to the atmosphere and CO2 generated by plants living in it.
GLG
Well-Known Member
Yummm no...
Native algae species to blame for 'rock snot' blooms in rivers worldwide
Date: May 7, 2014
Summary:
The recent blooms of the freshwater algae known as 'rock snot' on river bottoms worldwide are caused by a native species responding to changing environmental conditions rather than by accidental introductions by fishermen or the emergence of a new genetic strain as widely believed, a study suggests. In fact, the algae have been native to much of the world for thousands of years, but conditions promoting visible growths were absent or rare.
The recent blooms of the freshwater algae known as "rock snot" on river bottoms worldwide are caused by a native species responding to changing environmental conditions rather than by accidental introductions by fishermen or the emergence of a new genetic strain as widely believed, a Dartmouth College-led study suggests.
In fact, the algae have been native to much of the world for thousands of years, but conditions promoting visible growths were absent or rare. The study, which includes researchers from Dartmouth and Environment Canada, appears in the journal BioScience.
Didymosphenia geminata, also known in the scientific vernacular as "didymo," is especially worrisome in salmon and trout rivers because it affects the insects they eat. The study suggests multimillion-dollar eradication efforts with chemicals and fishing restrictions are misguided, and that resources should be redirected at understanding and mitigating the environmental factors that trigger the blooms.
"Correctly identifying an invasive species as either native or nonnative is important for developing sound policy, management and scientific research programs because effective responses depend on knowing whether the species' dominance is caused by ecological or evolutionary novelty, changes in environmental conditions that facilitate it, or both," said Professor Brad Taylor, the study's lead author.
Didymo blooms were hastily attributed to human introductions or the emergence of new genetic strain because the absence of evidence was used as evidence of absence in many locations. "Even in locations where rock snot had been recorded a century ago, this information was either ignored or the idea of a new genetic strain was adopted," Taylor says.
Algal blooms are often caused by excessive phosphorus and other nutrient inputs, but didymo blooms occur because phosphorus is low. Rock snot lives on river bottoms and obtains nutrients from the water above. When nutrients are rare, the algae produce long stalks that extend the cell into the water above to access nutrients. The result of this stalk growth is thick mats covering the river bottom. "The paradox of didymo blooms in low-nutrient rivers is not really a paradox at all. However, the idea that low phosphorus can cause an algal bloom is hard for people to accept because we are all taught that more nutrients equal more algae," Taylor says. The study explains that other algae and bacteria respond similarly to low nutrients, but rock snot blooms are unprecedented, making this organism a good sentinel of what could be the new norm in many pristine rivers worldwide.
The new research suggests rock snot blooms have become more common because of climate change and other human-caused environmental changes that are decreasing phosphorus to levels that promote the formation of didymo blooms in many remote, otherwise pristine rivers worldwide.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140507132701.htm
here is a link to the paper.
https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/biosci/biu060#3671616
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Oddly the rise of co2 in the atmosphere that is thought to be acidifying the oceans is not acidifying the rain? 20 years ago the rain ph in the pacific northwest was averaging in the low 4's and now it averages 5.5.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Didymo that was blooming here on Vancouver island has now retreated. The environmental condition I found that has changed was rain chemistry. In all the Didymo reports I have read none of them have compared rain ph records or samples to bloom timing. Something overlooked is the presence or not of nitrifying bacteria in waters blooming this species of algae. I have noticed that during the eras of blooms dead salmon do not decompose. Nitrifying bacteria is disrupted from drastic ph changes.
GLG
Well-Known Member
If this is true then there is no correlation of the increase of CO2 and the acid rain you are reporting. May I suggest you look at SO2.
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Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
GLG
Well-Known Member
I'm not suggesting that CO2 is not causing OA. I'm suggesting that SO2 is the cause of acid rain. This is common knowledge and I pointed out the fact that there was a flaw in your argument. You can't have acid rain here on the coast going down and CO2 going up at the same time. What does fit is SO2 an NOx on a watershed like we have here.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
What is the flaw in my argument?
Present rain ph is way higher than has been for twenty five years. Apparently global co2 levels have risen in the last few years from about 320ppm in the 1950s-400ppm present day. My household co2 meter logger was giving a reading of 430ppm out side last week but might have caught a bit of my breath. I do not have personal samples from past years as I did not have a meter. I am going to have to disagree with you in that yes you can have rising rain ph trends while co2 levels are increasing as that is what the testing equipment and records show.
Both so2 and co2 effect rain ph. I would assume that so2 might have a greater impact.
GLG
Well-Known Member
When pH goes up it is less acidic so your statement "20 years ago the rain ph in the pacific northwest was averaging in the low 4's and now it averages 5.5." would say that the today's rain is less acidic. That would indicate that the rise in CO2, over the same time frame, is not having the effect one would think. OA is affected by CO2 and is having a measurable effect in the ocean but I have not seen anything in the science literature that it is changing the pH of rain. I have seen a lot of science literature that SO2 and to a lesser extent NOx are the primary drivers of acid rain.
Here are some links that you may want to review and maybe request data from to help you refine your ideas.
The Georgia Basin – Puget Sound Airshed Characterization Report 2014
https://www.ec.gc.ca/air/default.asp?lang=En&n=1F36EFBB-1
The National Atmospheric Chemistry Database (NAtChem) is a data archival and analysis facility operated by the Science and Technology Branch of Environment Canada.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/natchem/default.asp?lang=En&n=6562770F-1
http://www.ec.gc.ca/natchem/default.asp?lang=en&n=35DDC79D-1
I'll look for an other link re Saturna Island monitoring station paper and added to this post.
found it...
https://www.researchgate.net/public...Substances_at_Saturna_Island_British_Columbia
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
I have all of those and more saved already.
My belief is that most probably deep sea volcanic activity is effecting the ocean ph more than co2 just like it has the rain.
Just to get back on this thread. The crash in Alaska wild salmon is indicating that it is not just bc with all are fish farms that are suffering but Alaska which has [no salmon farms?] is suffering too. I personally link the crash to Didymo and climate change being chemistry changes. That is the correlation of their salmon issues with ours.
My belief is that most probably deep sea volcanic activity is effecting the ocean ph more than co2 just like it has the rain.
Just to get back on this thread. The crash in Alaska wild salmon is indicating that it is not just bc with all are fish farms that are suffering but Alaska which has [no salmon farms?] is suffering too. I personally link the crash to Didymo and climate change being chemistry changes. That is the correlation of their salmon issues with ours.
GLG
Well-Known Member
You are welcome to believe whatever you like but for me I'll go with a link to the mass die off of seabirds that we saw up there last few years from starvation that is linked to the blob and el nino. My view is if there is no food for the birds there is no food for the salmon. No food for the salmon .... they die and they don't return to the river and the derby gets shut down.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
If you wanted to "truth" your hypothesis, Fishmyster - there would be quite a few ways to do that - and potentially - a few different components.
From the broad-scale down to the fine-scale - I have a few suggestions for generating supporting data:
1/ Do a large-scale overview of escapement trends - particularly looking at potential differences between acid-sensitive verses acid-buffered systems. On VI, particularly - there are a number of acid-buffered systems due to geology and soils. Look at a geologic map to determine which watersheds to compare.
2/ Do a longitudinal (time series) study with the data you say you have - and then do a multivariate analyses, and/or
3/ Do a focused mesocosm approach - changing pH and temps - then looking at decomposition rates and decomposition bacteria.
From the broad-scale down to the fine-scale - I have a few suggestions for generating supporting data:
1/ Do a large-scale overview of escapement trends - particularly looking at potential differences between acid-sensitive verses acid-buffered systems. On VI, particularly - there are a number of acid-buffered systems due to geology and soils. Look at a geologic map to determine which watersheds to compare.
2/ Do a longitudinal (time series) study with the data you say you have - and then do a multivariate analyses, and/or
3/ Do a focused mesocosm approach - changing pH and temps - then looking at decomposition rates and decomposition bacteria.
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