STABILITY TESTING
- Thread starter fishingbc
- Start date
B
Bear Cove
Guest
Just talked with TC about this. What I was told is that they are going to be going from a 4 page self inspection to a 10 page self inspection. It has not yet been passed and will not be in effect for this summer. So if you get it done this year it may help for the future. Could not answer me whether I will have to redo my inspection next year if I have it this year. Time will tell.
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
B
Bear Cove
Guest
Also forgot to mention that is has nothing to do with the stability test, only the self inspection part of it.
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
I remember someone mentioning you could fax in your stuff...week and a half ago talked to the TC woman who is dealing with our file and said it has to be all original (hence why we had to resend in the Grady tonnage measurements) or it would not be valid...
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
B
Bear Cove
Guest
I was told I could fax mine in. Doing my stability test this week-end.
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
www.bearcovecottages.ca
Port Hardy BC
Canada
fishingbc
Active Member
This new position or whatever from TC is evolving and what follows is some communication regarding this new TC position on stability testing.... Owen Bird from SFI is looking into this and will have any info and updates ASAP....again this has just come to light so wait to see what transpires at this CMA meeting...just wondering why this meeting is NOT common knowledge..at least no one up this way has heard anything about it....anyone else heard of this meeting and the implications of it??????
Dear Mr *******
There is nothing awkward at all about your e-mail. You are a businessman as well as a Guide and your queries are perfectly reasonable. However, having said that, the picture has change significantly in the last two days. Sorry this e-mail is a bit long - I want to be sure I've explained everything clearly so that you can answer questions guys might ask you.
I had a call from Gavin Brown, TC Kelowna night before last. Here is the what he called about.
There are two kinds of stability assessments for small commercial vessels. One is using Transport Canada instructions contained in TP14619. The other is using ISO 12217.
TP14619 is relatively straightforward and can easily be done with length, breadth and freeboard measurements and a plumb bob and/or an inclinometer in about 15 minutes using passengers for weights or filling 45 gallon drums with water and moving them to one side of the vessel. The ISO assessment is significantly more complex, has several worksheets for calculations and takes an estimated 1.5 hours to conduct, and then time to generate a written report.
If a vessel was built in Canada before April 2005 stability can be assessed using TP14619. Any vessel constructed after April 2005 in Canada, or any vessel purchased in the states regardless of the date of construction, by regulation is subject to the ISO stability assessment.
Up until recently Gavin was accepting stability assessments using TP14619 on vessels constructed after April 2005, and vessels built in the states although those vessels actually required the ISO assessment. His phone call was to tell me that he can no longer do that and that the program now requires the ISO stability assessment on vessels built after April 2005 in Canada and on any vessel purchased in the states regardless of date of construction.
An ISO stability assessment is going to be at least $250 and probably more because of the time needed to complete the worksheets and data interpretation required.
What Gavin said when he called is that a stability assessment using TP14619 for vessels built in Canada before April 2005 is fine. However he needs the ISO assessment for vessels built after 2005, or purchased in the states. To help guys if you are in the process of self-inspection for the Blue Decal program and actually require the ISO assessment, he will accept a TP14619 assessment - but within 6 months the owner or authorized representative must produce an ISO stability assessment.
When I am in Campbell River if any of you want to go for the 6 month TP14619 stability assessment, or have vessels that only require that assessment I'd be happy to help you. If anyone actually qualifies for assessment by TP14619 the cost is $150. If anyone wants the TP14619 assessment for the 6 month grace period (to get a blue decal) before producing an ISO stability assessment I don't know what to charge - $25, maybe $50 because I still do have to write a short assessment letter so guys can get the blue decal. Mr ***** I really don't know what to charge. With good conscience I cannot charge very much for something that is only good for six months. I can, however, show you how to do the TP14619 stability assessment...
I strongly urge you and sport fishing guide representatives to attend the Regional CMAC meeting on March 24th at the Pacific Marine Training Campus in North Vancouver. Gavin Brown will be speaking specifically about the SVMIP program. The professional guiding community is huge and that means you have a voice - voices are only heard at forums like regional CMAC meetings. Call me if you want to talk about all of this - I'm usually home by early evening, or Sunday morning is a good time looking at my schedule this week
Barb Howe
Dear Barb
Well , the implications of all that is lot to digest. We can anticipate a chorus of complaints to TC about continually moving the goal posts.
Thanks for offering the short term test for a small fee.
Please clarify the types of boats and the required tests. You have identified some types of boats ; boats made in Canada before 2005, and those after, and boats purchased in the US. What about the majority of boats, which are American-made but purchased in Canada ? There are lots of variations: boats that were originally sold in Canada by Canadian dealers of US brands, or, originally sold in the US but the boat was sold to a Canadian several owners ago. My first reading had me thinking that boats just purchased by guides bringing their boats in from the US is what were being targeted. Perhaps Gavin Brown simply means all boats manufactured in the US at any time. That would be the vast majority of guide boats. And, I might have thought that the newer boats built in Canada after 2005 would have the easier test to prove seaworthiness.
That is a good idea to send someone to the CMAC meeting. Owen Bird of SFI, Sport Fishing Institute of BC, probably attends, but perhaps someone from our Campbell River Guides Association could attend as well.
best regards, Mr ******
Dear Mr *******
There is nothing awkward at all about your e-mail. You are a businessman as well as a Guide and your queries are perfectly reasonable. However, having said that, the picture has change significantly in the last two days. Sorry this e-mail is a bit long - I want to be sure I've explained everything clearly so that you can answer questions guys might ask you.
I had a call from Gavin Brown, TC Kelowna night before last. Here is the what he called about.
There are two kinds of stability assessments for small commercial vessels. One is using Transport Canada instructions contained in TP14619. The other is using ISO 12217.
TP14619 is relatively straightforward and can easily be done with length, breadth and freeboard measurements and a plumb bob and/or an inclinometer in about 15 minutes using passengers for weights or filling 45 gallon drums with water and moving them to one side of the vessel. The ISO assessment is significantly more complex, has several worksheets for calculations and takes an estimated 1.5 hours to conduct, and then time to generate a written report.
If a vessel was built in Canada before April 2005 stability can be assessed using TP14619. Any vessel constructed after April 2005 in Canada, or any vessel purchased in the states regardless of the date of construction, by regulation is subject to the ISO stability assessment.
Up until recently Gavin was accepting stability assessments using TP14619 on vessels constructed after April 2005, and vessels built in the states although those vessels actually required the ISO assessment. His phone call was to tell me that he can no longer do that and that the program now requires the ISO stability assessment on vessels built after April 2005 in Canada and on any vessel purchased in the states regardless of date of construction.
An ISO stability assessment is going to be at least $250 and probably more because of the time needed to complete the worksheets and data interpretation required.
What Gavin said when he called is that a stability assessment using TP14619 for vessels built in Canada before April 2005 is fine. However he needs the ISO assessment for vessels built after 2005, or purchased in the states. To help guys if you are in the process of self-inspection for the Blue Decal program and actually require the ISO assessment, he will accept a TP14619 assessment - but within 6 months the owner or authorized representative must produce an ISO stability assessment.
When I am in Campbell River if any of you want to go for the 6 month TP14619 stability assessment, or have vessels that only require that assessment I'd be happy to help you. If anyone actually qualifies for assessment by TP14619 the cost is $150. If anyone wants the TP14619 assessment for the 6 month grace period (to get a blue decal) before producing an ISO stability assessment I don't know what to charge - $25, maybe $50 because I still do have to write a short assessment letter so guys can get the blue decal. Mr ***** I really don't know what to charge. With good conscience I cannot charge very much for something that is only good for six months. I can, however, show you how to do the TP14619 stability assessment...
I strongly urge you and sport fishing guide representatives to attend the Regional CMAC meeting on March 24th at the Pacific Marine Training Campus in North Vancouver. Gavin Brown will be speaking specifically about the SVMIP program. The professional guiding community is huge and that means you have a voice - voices are only heard at forums like regional CMAC meetings. Call me if you want to talk about all of this - I'm usually home by early evening, or Sunday morning is a good time looking at my schedule this week
Barb Howe
Dear Barb
Well , the implications of all that is lot to digest. We can anticipate a chorus of complaints to TC about continually moving the goal posts.
Thanks for offering the short term test for a small fee.
Please clarify the types of boats and the required tests. You have identified some types of boats ; boats made in Canada before 2005, and those after, and boats purchased in the US. What about the majority of boats, which are American-made but purchased in Canada ? There are lots of variations: boats that were originally sold in Canada by Canadian dealers of US brands, or, originally sold in the US but the boat was sold to a Canadian several owners ago. My first reading had me thinking that boats just purchased by guides bringing their boats in from the US is what were being targeted. Perhaps Gavin Brown simply means all boats manufactured in the US at any time. That would be the vast majority of guide boats. And, I might have thought that the newer boats built in Canada after 2005 would have the easier test to prove seaworthiness.
That is a good idea to send someone to the CMAC meeting. Owen Bird of SFI, Sport Fishing Institute of BC, probably attends, but perhaps someone from our Campbell River Guides Association could attend as well.
best regards, Mr ******
wolf
Well-Known Member
All I can say is im glad I already have it done!!!!!!pased with no problems really its nothing to be scared about it was rather easy once I seen what you had to do.
Wolf
Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
Wolf
Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
SerengetiGuide
Well-Known Member
Exactly...soo unorganized...such a joke.
www.serengetifishingcharters.com
*NEW VIDEO*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEzuNC59ck
searun
Well-Known Member
I agree and have the same experience as Banana's - I've been told to to do the simplified stability test. Frankly, I think in most cases TC would just be happy if the majority of the guide out there at least attempted to comply with the regulations.
Having said that, I would sure like to find someone who charges a reasonable fee to conduct the stability tests...it would be worth every penny to avoid making a mistake.
Does anyone know of a qualified person who can assist with the testing. I want to organize a group of guides to do all the testing together in Port Alberni in April, so this sort of info would be very helpful.
Searun
Having said that, I would sure like to find someone who charges a reasonable fee to conduct the stability tests...it would be worth every penny to avoid making a mistake.
Does anyone know of a qualified person who can assist with the testing. I want to organize a group of guides to do all the testing together in Port Alberni in April, so this sort of info would be very helpful.
Searun
Fishing Guide
Active Member
Cheers All,
The plot thickens. Lots to consider and I don't think we have seen the end of this ongoing drama. I spent the morning at TC discussing mostly Stability Testing TP14619 and ISO 12217. Since my boat is a custom aluminum and constructed after 2005 I must complete the ISO 12217.
I have 4 university degrees and teach senior high school math and I would be less than candid if I stated that the math included in ISO 12217 standard is less than significant. It is conceivably quite beyond most guides ability to complete without help. The forms to complete the testing are not available from TC and must be purchased from the nearest licensed distributer (currently US) and are about $350.00. Then add in the cost of help and you have a significant investment. The manufacturer of my boat (Silver Streak) offered to do mine for $5,000.00 - and yes I have that in writing. The least I have been quoted was $1,000.00 for the testing.
I have made arrangements with TC in Nanaimo to accept TP14619 for 6 months and, after that, I will provide ISO 12217 by the expiration of that time period. There are 4 guides getting together the first week of May to conclude our Simplified Stability and share experience and the required supplies. The actual test for the Simplified Stability is quite straight forward and takes longer to gather the supplies than do the actual test. My discussions with TC about my Simplified Stability being provided in the first week of May were met with complete approval. As a note everything else with my charter is completely complient and the conversation was along the lines that they would provide some latitude to those who are making efforts to becoming complient while those who have made little or no effort would not be afforded such. That seems fair to me as I have met too many guides who have made no effort and, at the last minute, to ask for significant extensions is more than problematic and unsettling.
From my discussions with TC it appears that TC is attempting to change the onus of the Stability from the owner to the manufacturer but that that type of change is down the road in the 5-10 year frame and, in the meanwhile, individual boat owners will be shouldering the responsibility - both in time and financial resources - to comply with their standards.
I also sense that the intent is to ensure that all boats will eventually be required to meet the ISO 12217 Standard. In the meanwhile I think you will find that TC will be looking towards any boat not manufactured in Canada to meet that standard and that in the foreseeable future all boats made outside of Canada - even those boats that have taken the Simplified Stability - will be required to upgrade to the ISO Standard.
As for Self Inspections they are required annually so, should TC decide that they will be moving from a 4 page to a 10 page - or whatever pages they wish - it will be contingent upon the boat owner to ensure their boat meets that standard.
Fishing Guide
www.invictuscharters.com
BC Outdoors Pro Staff
www.fishingvancouverisland.org
The plot thickens. Lots to consider and I don't think we have seen the end of this ongoing drama. I spent the morning at TC discussing mostly Stability Testing TP14619 and ISO 12217. Since my boat is a custom aluminum and constructed after 2005 I must complete the ISO 12217.
I have 4 university degrees and teach senior high school math and I would be less than candid if I stated that the math included in ISO 12217 standard is less than significant. It is conceivably quite beyond most guides ability to complete without help. The forms to complete the testing are not available from TC and must be purchased from the nearest licensed distributer (currently US) and are about $350.00. Then add in the cost of help and you have a significant investment. The manufacturer of my boat (Silver Streak) offered to do mine for $5,000.00 - and yes I have that in writing. The least I have been quoted was $1,000.00 for the testing.
I have made arrangements with TC in Nanaimo to accept TP14619 for 6 months and, after that, I will provide ISO 12217 by the expiration of that time period. There are 4 guides getting together the first week of May to conclude our Simplified Stability and share experience and the required supplies. The actual test for the Simplified Stability is quite straight forward and takes longer to gather the supplies than do the actual test. My discussions with TC about my Simplified Stability being provided in the first week of May were met with complete approval. As a note everything else with my charter is completely complient and the conversation was along the lines that they would provide some latitude to those who are making efforts to becoming complient while those who have made little or no effort would not be afforded such. That seems fair to me as I have met too many guides who have made no effort and, at the last minute, to ask for significant extensions is more than problematic and unsettling.
From my discussions with TC it appears that TC is attempting to change the onus of the Stability from the owner to the manufacturer but that that type of change is down the road in the 5-10 year frame and, in the meanwhile, individual boat owners will be shouldering the responsibility - both in time and financial resources - to comply with their standards.
I also sense that the intent is to ensure that all boats will eventually be required to meet the ISO 12217 Standard. In the meanwhile I think you will find that TC will be looking towards any boat not manufactured in Canada to meet that standard and that in the foreseeable future all boats made outside of Canada - even those boats that have taken the Simplified Stability - will be required to upgrade to the ISO Standard.
As for Self Inspections they are required annually so, should TC decide that they will be moving from a 4 page to a 10 page - or whatever pages they wish - it will be contingent upon the boat owner to ensure their boat meets that standard.
Fishing Guide
www.invictuscharters.com
BC Outdoors Pro Staff
www.fishingvancouverisland.org
wolf
Well-Known Member
LOL now that is funny but you might want to throw bananas in there as well and doh boy 4 of us on a boat and you have your 1000 lbs for sure, and im sure there are others that are at the 250 + mark on here!!!!!!!!.
All kidding aside
I know some of you all think this is a waste of time, and a joke but this is what TC wants done to your vessel so be it you cant fight it so its better to learn to live with it imao.
Its not hard to do and any guide in the vic area if you personally talk to Boris he will do this for you. you just have to talk to the man but it will get to the point where he wont be.
It may or may not be this year but the letters have been sent and they are watching certain guide boats for being non compliant.
I can personally tell you it was a huge stress relief seeing that yellow sticker arrive in the mail when I got it as I dont have to be like some looking over there shoulder all the time from the RCMP,DOT or the fisheries.
Think of it this way would you want the airline company that flys you to where ever you go just say. aAAAAAAhhh ill wait to do all the safety stuff no big deal screw them.
I know id be going to a company that has all the required safety in place.
And im sure once people (clients) start to know all about this they will too.
Good luck wolf
All kidding aside
I know some of you all think this is a waste of time, and a joke but this is what TC wants done to your vessel so be it you cant fight it so its better to learn to live with it imao.
Its not hard to do and any guide in the vic area if you personally talk to Boris he will do this for you. you just have to talk to the man but it will get to the point where he wont be.
It may or may not be this year but the letters have been sent and they are watching certain guide boats for being non compliant.
I can personally tell you it was a huge stress relief seeing that yellow sticker arrive in the mail when I got it as I dont have to be like some looking over there shoulder all the time from the RCMP,DOT or the fisheries.
Think of it this way would you want the airline company that flys you to where ever you go just say. aAAAAAAhhh ill wait to do all the safety stuff no big deal screw them.
I know id be going to a company that has all the required safety in place.
And im sure once people (clients) start to know all about this they will too.
Good luck wolf
Tailspin
Active Member
I have the yellow decal on one boat and the blue coming for the other. I sure like the process for the blue decal myself. Same deal for stability, if you can use a calculater and a tape its a breeze. Your boat would have to have serious issues to not pass.
I was told by the TC manager of marine safety Thursday, that for a fee you can still have an inspector like Borris come aboard and give you a yellow decal if you have trouble figuring out the simplified information on stability or you were booked befor hand. However either blue or yellow you still have to do an annual self inspection and affix the annual decal, same **** diffrent pile.
www.tailspincharters.com
I was told by the TC manager of marine safety Thursday, that for a fee you can still have an inspector like Borris come aboard and give you a yellow decal if you have trouble figuring out the simplified information on stability or you were booked befor hand. However either blue or yellow you still have to do an annual self inspection and affix the annual decal, same **** diffrent pile.
www.tailspincharters.com
wolf
Well-Known Member
SEE the word "personally talk to Boris" him /himself not the manager!!!!
cmom well all know the right hand isnt talkling to the left we all know its a flawed system but it has to be done I hate it as much as everyone on here BUT it still has to be done,so if he will come to your boat and do it what the big deal?????
Why not jump on it and take advantage of it while you can!!!!
He just did a buddy of mines boat on thursday the whole thing from top to bottom.Out of water inspection and in water inspection its not hard to pick up a phone and just CALL Boris directly now is it and make an appointment. if you want his number personally pm me and ill give it to you.....
He told me if ANYONE who wants to be compliant he will do it as he wants too see people be complete in doing all of this.
He also told my buddy the other day they have informed RCMP and others if they see a boat with a yellow sticker to carry on and go to the next boat.
Seems logically to me if you have already been inspected you get yellow meaning you have already gone thru ALL</u> process and been inspected by DOT/TC whatever you want to call them why would they recheck you??????? you dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out now do you.
It really easy for someone to just lie on the blue decal program and say F-IT on certain things like flares, up to date fire extiguishers etc.
But if ever GOD FORBID any thing happened and they investigate the incident and you bull fudged any part of the self inspection your insurance will be null and void (thats what the insurance company told me) as I have spent a ton of time making sure EVERYTHING is in place for this year I dont want any hiiden surprises and have done everything they have asked!!!!
Im sorry but thats not a chance I EVER want to take.
We all work way to hard to have a family,home,and a better life all to be sued to loose everything.
Do whatever you wish to do just be safe out there as accidents arent planned they happen all you have to do is look at what happened to the poor guy in the alberni inlet who hit that log he even said it himself
A mistake that could have been worse and something we all can take from a wake up call for all of us not just guides but all boaters hell I know some boats just have cheap 29.99 bilges that sometimes work in boats lot of good that does to help you in this incident.
JUST BE BE SAFE OK
Wolf
Tailspin
Active Member
Been dealing with Borris for 5 years, he did my first boat back then remember[
], got his # too, lol.
www.tailspincharters.com
], got his # too, lol.www.tailspincharters.com
Boris is very passionate about getting everyone on board with this. He is NOT your standard rank and file government beurocrat, he has been going well out of his way to help anyone that asks. Get ahold of him direct and get in while he can still help, I assure you after watching what some guys have gone through in the wake of other TC inspectors that Boris is who you want. And he will bend over backwards to help you.
Last Chance Fishing Adventures
www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
Last Chance Fishing Adventures
www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
wolf
Well-Known Member
I know that Jus wasnt really refering to you LOL.
Some of the marinas are getting on board if you dont have it they wont let you in. its the process and its going to happen some time when it will be the norm when who knows depends on the marinas.
Think of this scenerio ma and pa from USA go to a marina on our coast and ask for a charter. Marina says sure we can hook you up with FREDS fishing out they go ma slips cracks her head open. they want to sue fred but oooppps hes not covered for that.
Now they are going to sue fred for his life saving and go after the marina as they were the one who suggested him in the first place.
So would it be in the best intrest of marinas damn right it will be.As if I was in that line of business Id want my back covered for sure it really sad in this world that it all has come to this all we ever wanted to do is just FISH but its the sign of the times everyone is SUE happy.
Good luck wolf
Wolf
Some of the marinas are getting on board if you dont have it they wont let you in. its the process and its going to happen some time when it will be the norm when who knows depends on the marinas.
Think of this scenerio ma and pa from USA go to a marina on our coast and ask for a charter. Marina says sure we can hook you up with FREDS fishing out they go ma slips cracks her head open. they want to sue fred but oooppps hes not covered for that.
Now they are going to sue fred for his life saving and go after the marina as they were the one who suggested him in the first place.
So would it be in the best intrest of marinas damn right it will be.As if I was in that line of business Id want my back covered for sure it really sad in this world that it all has come to this all we ever wanted to do is just FISH but its the sign of the times everyone is SUE happy.
Good luck wolf
Wolf
fishingbc
Active Member
I have a person lined up to do stability testing and writing the report out for you...as soon as I can get some dates I will post them here and or the contact info.....cost seems fair, I believe in the $125- $150 range per boat and is willing to do a number of boats at at time....
Island Fish Lifter
Well-Known Member
Id be into that.
Fill the dam tub!
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